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Re: Col. Benjamin Davis near Sharpsburg on 9/14

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  • cowie_steve
    Larry, Thank you for this information. I appreciate the referral to Tischler s book--this is exactly what I was looking for. Cavalry from Munford s brigade in
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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      Larry,

      Thank you for this information. I appreciate the referral to Tischler's book--this is exactly
      what I was looking for. Cavalry from Munford's brigade in Sharpsburg on this night makes
      sense. IIRC, Dr. Harsh's TATF describes Munford retiring near Rohrersville after
      Crampton's Gap. Here, on this same evening, he was sent orders from Lee to scout
      potential escape routes for McLaws. As for Confederate artillery being fired at the
      escaping Federal cavalry near Sharpsburg around midnight, I wonder what remote
      possibility exists that this action could be connected to Chew. I'm without my research
      materials at the moment and hope that the forum forgives me for making such a
      stretch...just trying to connect the dots :)

      Best,

      Steve

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
      >
      > Steve,
      >
      > According to Tischler in his "The History of the Harper's Ferry
      > Cavalry Expedition September 14 & 15, 1862" the Confederates could
      > have been stragglers or some of Munford's cavalry (p. 113). There was
      > firing from a Rebel "platoon" or a strong picket line on the
      > Hagerstown Road which hastened Union units out of Sharpsburg (p. 132-
      > 4) about midnight.
      >
      > Tischler opines that the Union troopers, while resting and watering
      > their horses, were fired on by some of Munford's dismounted troopers
      > (p. 146). One report said that the first Rebels encountered near
      > Sharpsburg were mounted videttes who were driven off before a heavy
      > musket fire drove off the Union troopers. (p.154). Artillery wheels
      > could be heard and a citizen told some 8th NY troopers that they were
      > riding into Lee's army. This account says that a few artillery rounds
      > were fired at the Union troopers as they were leaving town. Later a
      > report says that portions of Longstreet's command were in Sharpsburg
      > and were the ones who confronted Union troopers.
      >
      > I wonder how easy it is to distinguish between artillery wheel sounds
      > and regular wagon wheel sounds?
      >
      > Tischler may have collected all of the extant accounts of the
      > breakout so using his book could be of help to you.
      >
      > Larry F.
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello, Forum.
      > >
      > > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
      > escapees, the 12th Illinois,
      > > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
      > the Sharpsburg village
      > > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
      > William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
      > > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
      > time, as well.
      > >
      > > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
      > evidence to support CS infantry,
      > > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
      > the edge of Sharpsburg at
      > > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
      > >
      > > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > >
      > > Steve
      > >
      >
    • Brian Downey
      Hi Steve, I think Larry noted earlier that Don Caughey has posted exahastively on the Breakout, participants and route - on his blog -- if you haven t already
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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        Hi Steve,

        I think Larry noted earlier that Don Caughey has posted exahastively
        on the Breakout, participants and route - on his blog -- if you
        haven't already seen that. I've linked to all 5 parts of his series,
        added some photos from Tischler, and drafted a rough map of the route
        on my own (http://behind.aotw.org/2007/09/23/exodus-from-harpers-ferry/).

        I've tried to mark (general) locations of both Federal and Confederate
        troops on that map, as describned in Harsh's book, but not which units
        they were. Another link from the blog will get you to a modern Google
        map if you want to retrace the route by car.

        I'll try to dig into Chew's Battery's whereabouts a little later. All
        I know just now is they were at Shepherdstown as late as 3pm on 17
        September - something about repairing/refitting guns there. They may
        have missed the whole thing ...
      • Brian Downey
        For starters, here s a fun view of Chew s Battery on/through the 14th: http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=2055 ...
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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          For starters, here's a fun view of Chew's Battery on/through the 14th:

          http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=2055

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Steve,
          <snip>

          > I'll try to dig into Chew's Battery's whereabouts a little later...
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Tom, You are certainly correct: Lt. Col. Hasbrouck Davis was the commander of the 12th Ill. Cavalry during the breakout. Col. Benjamin F. (Grimes) Davis was in
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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            Tom,

            You are certainly correct: Lt. Col. Hasbrouck Davis was the commander
            of the 12th Ill. Cavalry during the breakout. Col. Benjamin F.
            (Grimes) Davis was in command of the 8th NY Cavalry and Col. Arno
            Voss of the 12th Ill. was in overall command as senior colonel
            although he apparently rode with the 12th for a while. Looks like he
            and Grimes cooperated reluctantly?

            Larry F.

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Wasn't the 12th IL commanded by Hasbrouck Davis? Benjamin Davis
            commanded the 8th NY.
            >
            > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
            >
            >
            >
            > >>> "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...> 1/30/2008 4:34 PM >>>
            > Hello, Forum.
            >
            > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
            escapees, the 12th Illinois,
            > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
            the Sharpsburg village
            > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
            William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
            > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
            time, as well.
            >
            > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
            evidence to support CS infantry,
            > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
            the edge of Sharpsburg at
            > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
            >
            > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Steve
            >
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Brian, Don said he was going to do an article for AotW about the breakout-- have you heard from him lately? Larry F. ... series, ... route ... ferry/). ...
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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              Brian,

              Don said he was going to do an article for AotW about the breakout--
              have you heard from him lately?

              Larry F.

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Hi Steve,
              >
              > I think Larry noted earlier that Don Caughey has posted exahastively
              > on the Breakout, participants and route - on his blog -- if you
              > haven't already seen that. I've linked to all 5 parts of his
              series,
              > added some photos from Tischler, and drafted a rough map of the
              route
              > on my own (http://behind.aotw.org/2007/09/23/exodus-from-harpers-
              ferry/).
              >
              > I've tried to mark (general) locations of both Federal and
              Confederate
              > troops on that map, as describned in Harsh's book, but not which
              units
              > they were. Another link from the blog will get you to a modern
              Google
              > map if you want to retrace the route by car.
              >
              > I'll try to dig into Chew's Battery's whereabouts a little later.
              All
              > I know just now is they were at Shepherdstown as late as 3pm on 17
              > September - something about repairing/refitting guns there. They may
              > have missed the whole thing ...
              >
            • Brian Downey
              Hi Larry, Yes and he s working on it. No big rush on my part - I ll be glad to get it when ready.
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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                Hi Larry,

                Yes and he's working on it. No big rush on my part - I'll be glad to
                get it when ready.

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                >
                > Brian,
                >
                > Don said he was going to do an article for AotW about the breakout--
                > have you heard from him lately?
                >
                > Larry F.
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Excellent--I hope I get to read it within a month or two to help me with that chapter in my paper. BTW, Tischler has photos of both Palmer and Wilson.
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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                  Excellent--I hope I get to read it within a month or two to help me
                  with that chapter in my paper. BTW, Tischler has photos of both Palmer
                  and Wilson.



                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Larry,
                  >
                  > Yes and he's working on it. No big rush on my part - I'll be glad to
                  > get it when ready.
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                  > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Brian,
                  > >
                  > > Don said he was going to do an article for AotW about the breakout--
                  > > have you heard from him lately?
                  > >
                  > > Larry F.
                  >
                • Thomas Clemens
                  Larry, I don t claim expertise in this topic, but I think even at the time there was some friction, and certainly afterward when the assumption was the B.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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                    Larry,
                    I don't claim expertise in this topic, but I think even at the time there was some friction, and certainly afterward when the assumption was the B. Davis was in charge.


                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College


                    >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 01/31/08 4:59 PM >>>
                    Tom,

                    You are certainly correct: Lt. Col. Hasbrouck Davis was the commander
                    of the 12th Ill. Cavalry during the breakout. Col. Benjamin F.
                    (Grimes) Davis was in command of the 8th NY Cavalry and Col. Arno
                    Voss of the 12th Ill. was in overall command as senior colonel
                    although he apparently rode with the 12th for a while. Looks like he
                    and Grimes cooperated reluctantly?

                    Larry F.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Wasn't the 12th IL commanded by Hasbrouck Davis? Benjamin Davis
                    commanded the 8th NY.
                    >
                    > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...> 1/30/2008 4:34 PM >>>
                    > Hello, Forum.
                    >
                    > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
                    escapees, the 12th Illinois,
                    > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
                    the Sharpsburg village
                    > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
                    William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
                    > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
                    time, as well.
                    >
                    > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
                    evidence to support CS infantry,
                    > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
                    the edge of Sharpsburg at
                    > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
                    >
                    > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    > Steve
                    >
                  • cowie_steve
                    Brian, Thank you for referring me to Don Caughey s blog on the breakout. It s very well done, indeed, and the map is especially helpful. Steve
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 1, 2008
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                      Brian,

                      Thank you for referring me to Don Caughey's blog on the breakout. It's very well done,
                      indeed, and the map is especially helpful.

                      Steve

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Steve,
                      >
                      > I think Larry noted earlier that Don Caughey has posted exahastively
                      > on the Breakout, participants and route - on his blog -- if you
                      > haven't already seen that. I've linked to all 5 parts of his series,
                      > added some photos from Tischler, and drafted a rough map of the route
                      > on my own (http://behind.aotw.org/2007/09/23/exodus-from-harpers-ferry/).
                      >
                      > I've tried to mark (general) locations of both Federal and Confederate
                      > troops on that map, as describned in Harsh's book, but not which units
                      > they were. Another link from the blog will get you to a modern Google
                      > map if you want to retrace the route by car.
                      >
                      > I'll try to dig into Chew's Battery's whereabouts a little later. All
                      > I know just now is they were at Shepherdstown as late as 3pm on 17
                      > September - something about repairing/refitting guns there. They may
                      > have missed the whole thing ...
                      >
                    • eighth_conn_inf
                      Steve, According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton s Brigade, Martin s regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro) pp. 124-5. Here is a
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 2, 2008
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                        Steve,

                        According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton's Brigade,
                        Martin's regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro)
                        pp. 124-5. Here is a brief summary:

                        The Union column missed a more dangerous encounter with Rebel cavalry
                        that morning. When Hampton's Brigade rode from Burkittsville near
                        Crampton's Gap on the morning of 14 September, some of it went along
                        the east foot of South Mountain to picket roads leading from
                        Frederick and Berlin, while two regiments crossed into Pleasant
                        Valley to the western side of South Mountain. One of these was the
                        Jeff Davis Legion with six guns of Hart's Battery which took up a
                        position at Solomon's Gap in Elk Ridge to the north of Harpers Ferry.
                        Some of its pickets were those encountered by the Union column at the
                        mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac about 10 pm that night. Col.
                        Martin commanding the regiment decided to retreat to Hagerstown
                        believing the McClellan's troops were between Harpers Ferry and
                        points north and west. As he retreated, his scouts reported the Union
                        column on a roughly parallel track but closer to the Potomac.
                        Learning of the identity of the column he began pursuit seeing the
                        smoke from the burning wagons in the Unionist's wake. Finding that he
                        could not catch them, he turned and crossed into Williamsport. This
                        was fortunate for Martin as his 300 troopers would not have been much
                        of a match for the Union column.

                        Larry

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello, Forum.
                        >
                        > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
                        escapees, the 12th Illinois,
                        > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
                        the Sharpsburg village
                        > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
                        William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
                        > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
                        time, as well.
                        >
                        > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
                        evidence to support CS infantry,
                        > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
                        the edge of Sharpsburg at
                        > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
                        >
                        > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        >
                        > Steve
                        >
                      • cowie_steve
                        Larry, Thanks so much for clarifying. To refresh, Murfin s GOB, page 153, placed the 10:00 p.m. contact between the escaping Federal cavalry column and
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 2, 2008
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                          Larry,

                          Thanks so much for clarifying.

                          To refresh, Murfin's GOB, page 153, placed the 10:00 p.m. contact between the escaping
                          Federal cavalry column and Confederate pickets "near the edge of Sharpsburg." Carmen's
                          placement "at the mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac" makes much more sense to
                          me.

                          Best,

                          Steve



                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Steve,
                          >
                          > According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton's Brigade,
                          > Martin's regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro)
                          > pp. 124-5. Here is a brief summary:
                          >
                          > The Union column missed a more dangerous encounter with Rebel cavalry
                          > that morning. When Hampton's Brigade rode from Burkittsville near
                          > Crampton's Gap on the morning of 14 September, some of it went along
                          > the east foot of South Mountain to picket roads leading from
                          > Frederick and Berlin, while two regiments crossed into Pleasant
                          > Valley to the western side of South Mountain. One of these was the
                          > Jeff Davis Legion with six guns of Hart's Battery which took up a
                          > position at Solomon's Gap in Elk Ridge to the north of Harpers Ferry.
                          > Some of its pickets were those encountered by the Union column at the
                          > mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac about 10 pm that night. Col.
                          > Martin commanding the regiment decided to retreat to Hagerstown
                          > believing the McClellan's troops were between Harpers Ferry and
                          > points north and west. As he retreated, his scouts reported the Union
                          > column on a roughly parallel track but closer to the Potomac.
                          > Learning of the identity of the column he began pursuit seeing the
                          > smoke from the burning wagons in the Unionist's wake. Finding that he
                          > could not catch them, he turned and crossed into Williamsport. This
                          > was fortunate for Martin as his 300 troopers would not have been much
                          > of a match for the Union column.
                          >
                          > Larry
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello, Forum.
                          > >
                          > > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
                          > escapees, the 12th Illinois,
                          > > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
                          > the Sharpsburg village
                          > > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
                          > William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
                          > > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
                          > time, as well.
                          > >
                          > > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
                          > evidence to support CS infantry,
                          > > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
                          > the edge of Sharpsburg at
                          > > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
                          > >
                          > > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
                          > >
                          > > Thanks,
                          > >
                          > > Steve
                          > >
                          >
                        • Thomas Clemens
                          I am familiar with Carman s account and the letters, reports, etc. he used to write that passage. Murfin used Carman as his source on this. I am also
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 2, 2008
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                            I am familiar with Carman's account and the letters, reports, etc. he used to write that passage. Murfin used Carman as his source on this. I am also familiar with how far it is from Solomon's Gap to What is essentially today Sample's Manor and that is a hell of a distance to picket with 300 men. Given the reductions for picket reserves, those supporting Hart's guns and the signal detachment on Elk Ridge, it doesn't leave a lot of guys to stretch that distance. Dennis Frye, who knows the MD Campaign quite well and grew up in Pleasant Valley, finds this passage hard to accept. Yet Carman's sources say it happened, and he takes that as gospel. This passage really illustrates the difficulty and ambiguity of dealing with Carman.


                            Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                            Professor of History
                            Hagerstown Community College




                            >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 4/2/2008 2:39 PM >>>

                            Steve,

                            According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton's Brigade,
                            Martin's regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro)
                            pp. 124-5. Here is a brief summary:

                            The Union column missed a more dangerous encounter with Rebel cavalry
                            that morning. When Hampton's Brigade rode from Burkittsville near
                            Crampton's Gap on the morning of 14 September, some of it went along
                            the east foot of South Mountain to picket roads leading from
                            Frederick and Berlin, while two regiments crossed into Pleasant
                            Valley to the western side of South Mountain. One of these was the
                            Jeff Davis Legion with six guns of Hart's Battery which took up a
                            position at Solomon's Gap in Elk Ridge to the north of Harpers Ferry.
                            Some of its pickets were those encountered by the Union column at the
                            mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac about 10 pm that night. Col.
                            Martin commanding the regiment decided to retreat to Hagerstown
                            believing the McClellan's troops were between Harpers Ferry and
                            points north and west. As he retreated, his scouts reported the Union
                            column on a roughly parallel track but closer to the Potomac.
                            Learning of the identity of the column he began pursuit seeing the
                            smoke from the burning wagons in the Unionist's wake. Finding that he
                            could not catch them, he turned and crossed into Williamsport. This
                            was fortunate for Martin as his 300 troopers would not have been much
                            of a match for the Union column.

                            Larry

                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello, Forum.
                            >
                            > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
                            escapees, the 12th Illinois,
                            > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
                            the Sharpsburg village
                            > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
                            William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
                            > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
                            time, as well.
                            >
                            > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
                            evidence to support CS infantry,
                            > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
                            the edge of Sharpsburg at
                            > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
                            >
                            > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            >
                            > Steve
                            >




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • joseph_pierro
                            Tom is correct regarding the distances involved in Carman s version of the event. It does give one pause. On the other hand, I ve yet to find any contemporary
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 4, 2008
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                              Tom is correct regarding the distances involved in Carman's version
                              of the event. It does give one pause. On the other hand, I've yet to
                              find any contemporary evidence to contradict the claim.

                              Also, the purpose of picketing, after all, is simply to give notice
                              of an enemy's approach, not to attempt any appreciable resistance.
                              And we're talking about picketing during the operational stage of a
                              campaign (as opposed to the tactical phase, when the bulk of both
                              armies are in close proximity, in their main battle lines). Given the
                              distances over which the ANV was scattered at the time, the vast
                              expanse of mileage over which potential threats could come, and the
                              number of different avenues of approach from which the ANV had to
                              guard against being attacked in detail, a distance as great as Carman
                              records for those pickets is not entirely out of the realm of either
                              possibility or military soundness.

                              On the larger issue, one good thing to keep in mind whenever dealing
                              with the Carman mss. is that the focus of his research overall was in
                              furtherance of his official task: to mark the battlefield of Sept.
                              17. That's where the bulk of his energies were directed -- on
                              Antietam. Much of his focus on other aspects of the campaign -- South
                              Mountain, for instance -- was undertaken primarily with regard to
                              what the unit strengths would have been by the time they reached the
                              field at Antietam. 9/17 was always uppermost.

                              Of course, his manuscript covers the entire campaign, however. I
                              don;t mean to suggest that it isn't of tremendous value OUTSIDE of
                              9/17, but the area of Carman's greatest expertise was on the battle
                              of Antietam. (Or, to put it more generously, he was on even FIRMER
                              ground when discussing Antietam than he was on other aspects of the
                              campaign.)

                              I noticed in my work that, as he moves away from the battle itself,
                              he tends to defer a bit more to his sources and is less willing to
                              second-guess them.

                              --jake

                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I am familiar with Carman's account and the letters, reports, etc.
                              he used to write that passage. Murfin used Carman as his source on
                              this. I am also familiar with how far it is from Solomon's Gap to
                              What is essentially today Sample's Manor and that is a hell of a
                              distance to picket with 300 men. Given the reductions for picket
                              reserves, those supporting Hart's guns and the signal detachment on
                              Elk Ridge, it doesn't leave a lot of guys to stretch that distance.
                              Dennis Frye, who knows the MD Campaign quite well and grew up in
                              Pleasant Valley, finds this passage hard to accept. Yet Carman's
                              sources say it happened, and he takes that as gospel. This passage
                              really illustrates the difficulty and ambiguity of dealing with
                              Carman.
                              >
                              >
                              > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                              > Professor of History
                              > Hagerstown Community College
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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