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Col. Benjamin Davis near Sharpsburg on 9/14

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  • cowie_steve
    Hello, Forum. Murfin s GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis s vanguard of escapees, the 12th Illinois, as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 30, 2008
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      Hello, Forum.

      Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of escapees, the 12th Illinois,
      as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of the Sharpsburg village
      around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
      who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same time, as well.

      After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little evidence to support CS infantry,
      cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near the edge of Sharpsburg at
      10:00 p.m. on 9/14.

      Could someone please shed some light on this matter?

      Thanks,

      Steve
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Steve, According to Tischler in his The History of the Harper s Ferry Cavalry Expedition September 14 & 15, 1862 the Confederates could have been stragglers
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 30, 2008
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        Steve,

        According to Tischler in his "The History of the Harper's Ferry
        Cavalry Expedition September 14 & 15, 1862" the Confederates could
        have been stragglers or some of Munford's cavalry (p. 113). There was
        firing from a Rebel "platoon" or a strong picket line on the
        Hagerstown Road which hastened Union units out of Sharpsburg (p. 132-
        4) about midnight.

        Tischler opines that the Union troopers, while resting and watering
        their horses, were fired on by some of Munford's dismounted troopers
        (p. 146). One report said that the first Rebels encountered near
        Sharpsburg were mounted videttes who were driven off before a heavy
        musket fire drove off the Union troopers. (p.154). Artillery wheels
        could be heard and a citizen told some 8th NY troopers that they were
        riding into Lee's army. This account says that a few artillery rounds
        were fired at the Union troopers as they were leaving town. Later a
        report says that portions of Longstreet's command were in Sharpsburg
        and were the ones who confronted Union troopers.

        I wonder how easy it is to distinguish between artillery wheel sounds
        and regular wagon wheel sounds?

        Tischler may have collected all of the extant accounts of the
        breakout so using his book could be of help to you.

        Larry F.

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hello, Forum.
        >
        > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
        escapees, the 12th Illinois,
        > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
        the Sharpsburg village
        > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
        William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
        > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
        time, as well.
        >
        > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
        evidence to support CS infantry,
        > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
        the edge of Sharpsburg at
        > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
        >
        > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Steve
        >
      • Thomas Clemens
        Wasn t the 12th IL commanded by Hasbrouck Davis? Benjamin Davis commanded the 8th NY. Dr. Thomas G. Clemens Professor of History Hagerstown Community College
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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          Wasn't the 12th IL commanded by Hasbrouck Davis? Benjamin Davis commanded the 8th NY.

          Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College



          >>> "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...> 1/30/2008 4:34 PM >>>
          Hello, Forum.

          Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of escapees, the 12th Illinois,
          as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of the Sharpsburg village
          around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
          who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same time, as well.

          After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little evidence to support CS infantry,
          cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near the edge of Sharpsburg at
          10:00 p.m. on 9/14.

          Could someone please shed some light on this matter?

          Thanks,

          Steve
        • cowie_steve
          Larry, Thank you for this information. I appreciate the referral to Tischler s book--this is exactly what I was looking for. Cavalry from Munford s brigade in
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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            Larry,

            Thank you for this information. I appreciate the referral to Tischler's book--this is exactly
            what I was looking for. Cavalry from Munford's brigade in Sharpsburg on this night makes
            sense. IIRC, Dr. Harsh's TATF describes Munford retiring near Rohrersville after
            Crampton's Gap. Here, on this same evening, he was sent orders from Lee to scout
            potential escape routes for McLaws. As for Confederate artillery being fired at the
            escaping Federal cavalry near Sharpsburg around midnight, I wonder what remote
            possibility exists that this action could be connected to Chew. I'm without my research
            materials at the moment and hope that the forum forgives me for making such a
            stretch...just trying to connect the dots :)

            Best,

            Steve

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
            >
            > Steve,
            >
            > According to Tischler in his "The History of the Harper's Ferry
            > Cavalry Expedition September 14 & 15, 1862" the Confederates could
            > have been stragglers or some of Munford's cavalry (p. 113). There was
            > firing from a Rebel "platoon" or a strong picket line on the
            > Hagerstown Road which hastened Union units out of Sharpsburg (p. 132-
            > 4) about midnight.
            >
            > Tischler opines that the Union troopers, while resting and watering
            > their horses, were fired on by some of Munford's dismounted troopers
            > (p. 146). One report said that the first Rebels encountered near
            > Sharpsburg were mounted videttes who were driven off before a heavy
            > musket fire drove off the Union troopers. (p.154). Artillery wheels
            > could be heard and a citizen told some 8th NY troopers that they were
            > riding into Lee's army. This account says that a few artillery rounds
            > were fired at the Union troopers as they were leaving town. Later a
            > report says that portions of Longstreet's command were in Sharpsburg
            > and were the ones who confronted Union troopers.
            >
            > I wonder how easy it is to distinguish between artillery wheel sounds
            > and regular wagon wheel sounds?
            >
            > Tischler may have collected all of the extant accounts of the
            > breakout so using his book could be of help to you.
            >
            > Larry F.
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello, Forum.
            > >
            > > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
            > escapees, the 12th Illinois,
            > > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
            > the Sharpsburg village
            > > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
            > William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
            > > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
            > time, as well.
            > >
            > > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
            > evidence to support CS infantry,
            > > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
            > the edge of Sharpsburg at
            > > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
            > >
            > > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > > Steve
            > >
            >
          • Brian Downey
            Hi Steve, I think Larry noted earlier that Don Caughey has posted exahastively on the Breakout, participants and route - on his blog -- if you haven t already
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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              Hi Steve,

              I think Larry noted earlier that Don Caughey has posted exahastively
              on the Breakout, participants and route - on his blog -- if you
              haven't already seen that. I've linked to all 5 parts of his series,
              added some photos from Tischler, and drafted a rough map of the route
              on my own (http://behind.aotw.org/2007/09/23/exodus-from-harpers-ferry/).

              I've tried to mark (general) locations of both Federal and Confederate
              troops on that map, as describned in Harsh's book, but not which units
              they were. Another link from the blog will get you to a modern Google
              map if you want to retrace the route by car.

              I'll try to dig into Chew's Battery's whereabouts a little later. All
              I know just now is they were at Shepherdstown as late as 3pm on 17
              September - something about repairing/refitting guns there. They may
              have missed the whole thing ...
            • Brian Downey
              For starters, here s a fun view of Chew s Battery on/through the 14th: http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=2055 ...
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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                For starters, here's a fun view of Chew's Battery on/through the 14th:

                http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=2055

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Steve,
                <snip>

                > I'll try to dig into Chew's Battery's whereabouts a little later...
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Tom, You are certainly correct: Lt. Col. Hasbrouck Davis was the commander of the 12th Ill. Cavalry during the breakout. Col. Benjamin F. (Grimes) Davis was in
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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                  Tom,

                  You are certainly correct: Lt. Col. Hasbrouck Davis was the commander
                  of the 12th Ill. Cavalry during the breakout. Col. Benjamin F.
                  (Grimes) Davis was in command of the 8th NY Cavalry and Col. Arno
                  Voss of the 12th Ill. was in overall command as senior colonel
                  although he apparently rode with the 12th for a while. Looks like he
                  and Grimes cooperated reluctantly?

                  Larry F.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Wasn't the 12th IL commanded by Hasbrouck Davis? Benjamin Davis
                  commanded the 8th NY.
                  >
                  > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >>> "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...> 1/30/2008 4:34 PM >>>
                  > Hello, Forum.
                  >
                  > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
                  escapees, the 12th Illinois,
                  > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
                  the Sharpsburg village
                  > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
                  William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
                  > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
                  time, as well.
                  >
                  > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
                  evidence to support CS infantry,
                  > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
                  the edge of Sharpsburg at
                  > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
                  >
                  > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  >
                  > Steve
                  >
                • eighth_conn_inf
                  Brian, Don said he was going to do an article for AotW about the breakout-- have you heard from him lately? Larry F. ... series, ... route ... ferry/). ...
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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                    Brian,

                    Don said he was going to do an article for AotW about the breakout--
                    have you heard from him lately?

                    Larry F.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Steve,
                    >
                    > I think Larry noted earlier that Don Caughey has posted exahastively
                    > on the Breakout, participants and route - on his blog -- if you
                    > haven't already seen that. I've linked to all 5 parts of his
                    series,
                    > added some photos from Tischler, and drafted a rough map of the
                    route
                    > on my own (http://behind.aotw.org/2007/09/23/exodus-from-harpers-
                    ferry/).
                    >
                    > I've tried to mark (general) locations of both Federal and
                    Confederate
                    > troops on that map, as describned in Harsh's book, but not which
                    units
                    > they were. Another link from the blog will get you to a modern
                    Google
                    > map if you want to retrace the route by car.
                    >
                    > I'll try to dig into Chew's Battery's whereabouts a little later.
                    All
                    > I know just now is they were at Shepherdstown as late as 3pm on 17
                    > September - something about repairing/refitting guns there. They may
                    > have missed the whole thing ...
                    >
                  • Brian Downey
                    Hi Larry, Yes and he s working on it. No big rush on my part - I ll be glad to get it when ready.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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                      Hi Larry,

                      Yes and he's working on it. No big rush on my part - I'll be glad to
                      get it when ready.

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                      <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Brian,
                      >
                      > Don said he was going to do an article for AotW about the breakout--
                      > have you heard from him lately?
                      >
                      > Larry F.
                    • eighth_conn_inf
                      Excellent--I hope I get to read it within a month or two to help me with that chapter in my paper. BTW, Tischler has photos of both Palmer and Wilson.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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                        Excellent--I hope I get to read it within a month or two to help me
                        with that chapter in my paper. BTW, Tischler has photos of both Palmer
                        and Wilson.



                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Larry,
                        >
                        > Yes and he's working on it. No big rush on my part - I'll be glad to
                        > get it when ready.
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                        > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Brian,
                        > >
                        > > Don said he was going to do an article for AotW about the breakout--
                        > > have you heard from him lately?
                        > >
                        > > Larry F.
                        >
                      • Thomas Clemens
                        Larry, I don t claim expertise in this topic, but I think even at the time there was some friction, and certainly afterward when the assumption was the B.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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                          Larry,
                          I don't claim expertise in this topic, but I think even at the time there was some friction, and certainly afterward when the assumption was the B. Davis was in charge.


                          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          Professor of History
                          Hagerstown Community College


                          >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 01/31/08 4:59 PM >>>
                          Tom,

                          You are certainly correct: Lt. Col. Hasbrouck Davis was the commander
                          of the 12th Ill. Cavalry during the breakout. Col. Benjamin F.
                          (Grimes) Davis was in command of the 8th NY Cavalry and Col. Arno
                          Voss of the 12th Ill. was in overall command as senior colonel
                          although he apparently rode with the 12th for a while. Looks like he
                          and Grimes cooperated reluctantly?

                          Larry F.

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Wasn't the 12th IL commanded by Hasbrouck Davis? Benjamin Davis
                          commanded the 8th NY.
                          >
                          > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                          > Professor of History
                          > Hagerstown Community College
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >>> "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...> 1/30/2008 4:34 PM >>>
                          > Hello, Forum.
                          >
                          > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
                          escapees, the 12th Illinois,
                          > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
                          the Sharpsburg village
                          > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
                          William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
                          > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
                          time, as well.
                          >
                          > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
                          evidence to support CS infantry,
                          > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
                          the edge of Sharpsburg at
                          > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
                          >
                          > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > Steve
                          >
                        • cowie_steve
                          Brian, Thank you for referring me to Don Caughey s blog on the breakout. It s very well done, indeed, and the map is especially helpful. Steve
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 1, 2008
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                            Brian,

                            Thank you for referring me to Don Caughey's blog on the breakout. It's very well done,
                            indeed, and the map is especially helpful.

                            Steve

                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Steve,
                            >
                            > I think Larry noted earlier that Don Caughey has posted exahastively
                            > on the Breakout, participants and route - on his blog -- if you
                            > haven't already seen that. I've linked to all 5 parts of his series,
                            > added some photos from Tischler, and drafted a rough map of the route
                            > on my own (http://behind.aotw.org/2007/09/23/exodus-from-harpers-ferry/).
                            >
                            > I've tried to mark (general) locations of both Federal and Confederate
                            > troops on that map, as describned in Harsh's book, but not which units
                            > they were. Another link from the blog will get you to a modern Google
                            > map if you want to retrace the route by car.
                            >
                            > I'll try to dig into Chew's Battery's whereabouts a little later. All
                            > I know just now is they were at Shepherdstown as late as 3pm on 17
                            > September - something about repairing/refitting guns there. They may
                            > have missed the whole thing ...
                            >
                          • eighth_conn_inf
                            Steve, According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton s Brigade, Martin s regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro) pp. 124-5. Here is a
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 2, 2008
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                              Steve,

                              According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton's Brigade,
                              Martin's regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro)
                              pp. 124-5. Here is a brief summary:

                              The Union column missed a more dangerous encounter with Rebel cavalry
                              that morning. When Hampton's Brigade rode from Burkittsville near
                              Crampton's Gap on the morning of 14 September, some of it went along
                              the east foot of South Mountain to picket roads leading from
                              Frederick and Berlin, while two regiments crossed into Pleasant
                              Valley to the western side of South Mountain. One of these was the
                              Jeff Davis Legion with six guns of Hart's Battery which took up a
                              position at Solomon's Gap in Elk Ridge to the north of Harpers Ferry.
                              Some of its pickets were those encountered by the Union column at the
                              mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac about 10 pm that night. Col.
                              Martin commanding the regiment decided to retreat to Hagerstown
                              believing the McClellan's troops were between Harpers Ferry and
                              points north and west. As he retreated, his scouts reported the Union
                              column on a roughly parallel track but closer to the Potomac.
                              Learning of the identity of the column he began pursuit seeing the
                              smoke from the burning wagons in the Unionist's wake. Finding that he
                              could not catch them, he turned and crossed into Williamsport. This
                              was fortunate for Martin as his 300 troopers would not have been much
                              of a match for the Union column.

                              Larry

                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello, Forum.
                              >
                              > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
                              escapees, the 12th Illinois,
                              > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
                              the Sharpsburg village
                              > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
                              William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
                              > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
                              time, as well.
                              >
                              > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
                              evidence to support CS infantry,
                              > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
                              the edge of Sharpsburg at
                              > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
                              >
                              > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              >
                              > Steve
                              >
                            • cowie_steve
                              Larry, Thanks so much for clarifying. To refresh, Murfin s GOB, page 153, placed the 10:00 p.m. contact between the escaping Federal cavalry column and
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 2, 2008
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                                Larry,

                                Thanks so much for clarifying.

                                To refresh, Murfin's GOB, page 153, placed the 10:00 p.m. contact between the escaping
                                Federal cavalry column and Confederate pickets "near the edge of Sharpsburg." Carmen's
                                placement "at the mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac" makes much more sense to
                                me.

                                Best,

                                Steve



                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Steve,
                                >
                                > According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton's Brigade,
                                > Martin's regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro)
                                > pp. 124-5. Here is a brief summary:
                                >
                                > The Union column missed a more dangerous encounter with Rebel cavalry
                                > that morning. When Hampton's Brigade rode from Burkittsville near
                                > Crampton's Gap on the morning of 14 September, some of it went along
                                > the east foot of South Mountain to picket roads leading from
                                > Frederick and Berlin, while two regiments crossed into Pleasant
                                > Valley to the western side of South Mountain. One of these was the
                                > Jeff Davis Legion with six guns of Hart's Battery which took up a
                                > position at Solomon's Gap in Elk Ridge to the north of Harpers Ferry.
                                > Some of its pickets were those encountered by the Union column at the
                                > mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac about 10 pm that night. Col.
                                > Martin commanding the regiment decided to retreat to Hagerstown
                                > believing the McClellan's troops were between Harpers Ferry and
                                > points north and west. As he retreated, his scouts reported the Union
                                > column on a roughly parallel track but closer to the Potomac.
                                > Learning of the identity of the column he began pursuit seeing the
                                > smoke from the burning wagons in the Unionist's wake. Finding that he
                                > could not catch them, he turned and crossed into Williamsport. This
                                > was fortunate for Martin as his 300 troopers would not have been much
                                > of a match for the Union column.
                                >
                                > Larry
                                >
                                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello, Forum.
                                > >
                                > > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
                                > escapees, the 12th Illinois,
                                > > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
                                > the Sharpsburg village
                                > > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
                                > William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
                                > > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
                                > time, as well.
                                > >
                                > > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
                                > evidence to support CS infantry,
                                > > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
                                > the edge of Sharpsburg at
                                > > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
                                > >
                                > > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
                                > >
                                > > Thanks,
                                > >
                                > > Steve
                                > >
                                >
                              • Thomas Clemens
                                I am familiar with Carman s account and the letters, reports, etc. he used to write that passage. Murfin used Carman as his source on this. I am also
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 2, 2008
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                                  I am familiar with Carman's account and the letters, reports, etc. he used to write that passage. Murfin used Carman as his source on this. I am also familiar with how far it is from Solomon's Gap to What is essentially today Sample's Manor and that is a hell of a distance to picket with 300 men. Given the reductions for picket reserves, those supporting Hart's guns and the signal detachment on Elk Ridge, it doesn't leave a lot of guys to stretch that distance. Dennis Frye, who knows the MD Campaign quite well and grew up in Pleasant Valley, finds this passage hard to accept. Yet Carman's sources say it happened, and he takes that as gospel. This passage really illustrates the difficulty and ambiguity of dealing with Carman.


                                  Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                  Professor of History
                                  Hagerstown Community College




                                  >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 4/2/2008 2:39 PM >>>

                                  Steve,

                                  According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton's Brigade,
                                  Martin's regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro)
                                  pp. 124-5. Here is a brief summary:

                                  The Union column missed a more dangerous encounter with Rebel cavalry
                                  that morning. When Hampton's Brigade rode from Burkittsville near
                                  Crampton's Gap on the morning of 14 September, some of it went along
                                  the east foot of South Mountain to picket roads leading from
                                  Frederick and Berlin, while two regiments crossed into Pleasant
                                  Valley to the western side of South Mountain. One of these was the
                                  Jeff Davis Legion with six guns of Hart's Battery which took up a
                                  position at Solomon's Gap in Elk Ridge to the north of Harpers Ferry.
                                  Some of its pickets were those encountered by the Union column at the
                                  mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac about 10 pm that night. Col.
                                  Martin commanding the regiment decided to retreat to Hagerstown
                                  believing the McClellan's troops were between Harpers Ferry and
                                  points north and west. As he retreated, his scouts reported the Union
                                  column on a roughly parallel track but closer to the Potomac.
                                  Learning of the identity of the column he began pursuit seeing the
                                  smoke from the burning wagons in the Unionist's wake. Finding that he
                                  could not catch them, he turned and crossed into Williamsport. This
                                  was fortunate for Martin as his 300 troopers would not have been much
                                  of a match for the Union column.

                                  Larry

                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello, Forum.
                                  >
                                  > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
                                  escapees, the 12th Illinois,
                                  > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
                                  the Sharpsburg village
                                  > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
                                  William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
                                  > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
                                  time, as well.
                                  >
                                  > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
                                  evidence to support CS infantry,
                                  > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
                                  the edge of Sharpsburg at
                                  > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
                                  >
                                  > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks,
                                  >
                                  > Steve
                                  >




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • joseph_pierro
                                  Tom is correct regarding the distances involved in Carman s version of the event. It does give one pause. On the other hand, I ve yet to find any contemporary
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 4, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Tom is correct regarding the distances involved in Carman's version
                                    of the event. It does give one pause. On the other hand, I've yet to
                                    find any contemporary evidence to contradict the claim.

                                    Also, the purpose of picketing, after all, is simply to give notice
                                    of an enemy's approach, not to attempt any appreciable resistance.
                                    And we're talking about picketing during the operational stage of a
                                    campaign (as opposed to the tactical phase, when the bulk of both
                                    armies are in close proximity, in their main battle lines). Given the
                                    distances over which the ANV was scattered at the time, the vast
                                    expanse of mileage over which potential threats could come, and the
                                    number of different avenues of approach from which the ANV had to
                                    guard against being attacked in detail, a distance as great as Carman
                                    records for those pickets is not entirely out of the realm of either
                                    possibility or military soundness.

                                    On the larger issue, one good thing to keep in mind whenever dealing
                                    with the Carman mss. is that the focus of his research overall was in
                                    furtherance of his official task: to mark the battlefield of Sept.
                                    17. That's where the bulk of his energies were directed -- on
                                    Antietam. Much of his focus on other aspects of the campaign -- South
                                    Mountain, for instance -- was undertaken primarily with regard to
                                    what the unit strengths would have been by the time they reached the
                                    field at Antietam. 9/17 was always uppermost.

                                    Of course, his manuscript covers the entire campaign, however. I
                                    don;t mean to suggest that it isn't of tremendous value OUTSIDE of
                                    9/17, but the area of Carman's greatest expertise was on the battle
                                    of Antietam. (Or, to put it more generously, he was on even FIRMER
                                    ground when discussing Antietam than he was on other aspects of the
                                    campaign.)

                                    I noticed in my work that, as he moves away from the battle itself,
                                    he tends to defer a bit more to his sources and is less willing to
                                    second-guess them.

                                    --jake

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am familiar with Carman's account and the letters, reports, etc.
                                    he used to write that passage. Murfin used Carman as his source on
                                    this. I am also familiar with how far it is from Solomon's Gap to
                                    What is essentially today Sample's Manor and that is a hell of a
                                    distance to picket with 300 men. Given the reductions for picket
                                    reserves, those supporting Hart's guns and the signal detachment on
                                    Elk Ridge, it doesn't leave a lot of guys to stretch that distance.
                                    Dennis Frye, who knows the MD Campaign quite well and grew up in
                                    Pleasant Valley, finds this passage hard to accept. Yet Carman's
                                    sources say it happened, and he takes that as gospel. This passage
                                    really illustrates the difficulty and ambiguity of dealing with
                                    Carman.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                    > Professor of History
                                    > Hagerstown Community College
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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