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ANVa Supply Trains

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  • dean_essig
    Hey Guys! I hope somebody can help here, sticky wicket and all that. Here are the conflicting bits of information I have at this point (mostly from Harsh,
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 30, 2008
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      Hey Guys!

      I hope somebody can help here, sticky wicket and all that.

      Here are the conflicting bits of information I have at this point (mostly from Harsh, other
      sources mentioned when they happen):

      1) The main ammunition trains (along with everything else) was shipping across the
      Potomac so the army could quickly withdraw or maneuver to the north as needed.

      2) On the 16th, all the divisional trains were ordered back across the river to link up with
      their commands. ...but...

      3) Hood claims to have personally and at great effort gone and brought forward his
      division's trains on the night of the 16th (after the skirmish). (Leaving the impression that
      he, alone, got any divisional trains forward). (Hood, Advance and Retreat)

      4) There are reports of the trains being massed along the roads leading from Sharpsburg
      to Boetler's Ford during the 17th. It seems the 10 LA Rgt and Reilly's Artillery Battery spent
      a goodly chunk of the afternoon looking for ammunition in this mass. Gallagher, Antietam
      Campaign pg 118

      5) Longstreet's supply wagons were captured before the battle, so he has no trains to
      place in this confusion.

      So, I'm left with a conundrum.

      What (aside from Hood's) trains did re-cross the river to Md between the 16th and 17th? I
      believe the main army trains (and most of the artillery ammunition) was still in VA, but I
      have not found any reports of batteries crossing the river looking for ammunition (Reilly
      seems to be in the area SW of Sharpsburg, but on the Md side.

      Dean
    • Thomas Clemens
      Dean, I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains except ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 30, 2008
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        Dean,
        I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains except ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and bring them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg. Longstreet' loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
        Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have time to play them.


        Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College



        >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 1/30/2008 11:03 AM >>>
        Hey Guys!

        I hope somebody can help here, sticky wicket and all that.

        Here are the conflicting bits of information I have at this point (mostly from Harsh, other
        sources mentioned when they happen):

        1) The main ammunition trains (along with everything else) was shipping across the
        Potomac so the army could quickly withdraw or maneuver to the north as needed.

        2) On the 16th, all the divisional trains were ordered back across the river to link up with
        their commands. ...but...

        3) Hood claims to have personally and at great effort gone and brought forward his
        division's trains on the night of the 16th (after the skirmish). (Leaving the impression that
        he, alone, got any divisional trains forward). (Hood, Advance and Retreat)

        4) There are reports of the trains being massed along the roads leading from Sharpsburg
        to Boetler's Ford during the 17th. It seems the 10 LA Rgt and Reilly's Artillery Battery spent
        a goodly chunk of the afternoon looking for ammunition in this mass. Gallagher, Antietam
        Campaign pg 118

        5) Longstreet's supply wagons were captured before the battle, so he has no trains to
        place in this confusion.

        So, I'm left with a conundrum.

        What (aside from Hood's) trains did re-cross the river to Md between the 16th and 17th? I
        believe the main army trains (and most of the artillery ammunition) was still in VA, but I
        have not found any reports of batteries crossing the river looking for ammunition (Reilly
        seems to be in the area SW of Sharpsburg, but on the Md side.

        Dean
      • dean_essig
        Excellent info, Thomas! That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and when you get a chance) please dig out some sources on
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 30, 2008
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          Excellent info, Thomas!

          That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and when you
          get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.

          You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done :-)

          Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that has your
          name in the research credits I would think. ;-)

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dean,
          > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains except
          ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and bring
          them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg. Longstreet'
          loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
          > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have time to
          play them.
        • Thomas Clemens
          Sure but I have to attend a hearing tonight so I cannot get to digging out sources for a day or two. But I will do it ASAP. Some of the other learned
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 30, 2008
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            Sure but I have to attend a hearing tonight so I cannot get to digging out sources for a day or two. But I will do it ASAP. Some of the other learned scholars here might find it faster than I can.



            Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College



            >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 1/30/2008 11:18 AM >>>
            Excellent info, Thomas!

            That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and when you
            get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.

            You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done :-)

            Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that has your
            name in the research credits I would think. ;-)

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dean,
            > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains except
            ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and bring
            them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg. Longstreet'
            loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
            > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have time to
            play them.
          • dean_essig
            That s fine, no rush... The work on this project has been long term. I really appreciate the help. ... or two. But I will do it ASAP. Some of the other
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 30, 2008
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              That's fine, no rush... The work on this project has been long term. I really appreciate the
              help.

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sure but I have to attend a hearing tonight so I cannot get to digging out sources for a day
              or two. But I will do it ASAP. Some of the other learned scholars here might find it faster
              than I can.
            • Thomas Clemens
              Dean, The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9 footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 31, 2008
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                Dean,
                The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9 footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you do not have access to those books.


                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College


                >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                Excellent info, Thomas!

                That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and when you
                get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.

                You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done :-)

                Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that has your
                name in the research credits I would think. ;-)

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dean,
                > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains except
                ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and bring
                them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg. Longstreet'
                loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
                > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have time to
                play them.
              • dean_essig
                Thomas, I have all three... thanks so much! ... footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you do not have access to those
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 31, 2008
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                  Thomas,

                  I have all three... thanks so much!

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dean,
                  > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
                  footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you do not
                  have access to those books.
                  >
                • dean_essig
                  Thomas, Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter. What we know: 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                    Thomas,

                    Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter.

                    What we know:
                    1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at various dates.
                    Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get some food.

                    2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and positioned "2 miles to the
                    rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a reference as to rear of what
                    or who).

                    The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                    1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina? Harsh believes so.

                    1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent back into Md? This is
                    interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains across the river to avoid
                    losing artillery ammunition.

                    Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the unknowns?

                    Dean


                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dean,
                    > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
                    footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you do
                    not have access to those books.
                    >
                    >
                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                    > Excellent info, Thomas!
                    >
                    > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and when
                    you
                    > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.
                    >
                    > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done
                    :-)
                    >
                    > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that has
                    your
                    > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dean,
                    > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains except
                    > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and
                    bring
                    > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg.
                    Longstreet'
                    > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
                    > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have time
                    to
                    > play them.
                    >
                  • Thomas Clemens
                    Dean, I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just fine. I think you have it correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains,
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                      Dean,
                      I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just fine. I think you have it correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such as they were with the loss of many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I think some of it was forwarded on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo resupply. Going from memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it as 1 & 1/4 miles from Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt. Airy, the Grove family farm. That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots of fields to park a wagon train there.


                      Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College



                      >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                      Thomas,

                      Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter.

                      What we know:
                      1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at various dates.
                      Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get some food.

                      2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and positioned "2 miles to the
                      rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a reference as to rear of what
                      or who).

                      The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                      1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina? Harsh believes so.

                      1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent back into Md? This is
                      interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains across the river to avoid
                      losing artillery ammunition.

                      Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the unknowns?

                      Dean


                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dean,
                      > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
                      footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you do
                      not have access to those books.
                      >
                      >
                      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > Professor of History
                      > Hagerstown Community College
                      >
                      >
                      > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                      > Excellent info, Thomas!
                      >
                      > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and when
                      you
                      > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.
                      >
                      > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done
                      :-)
                      >
                      > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that has
                      your
                      > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dean,
                      > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains except
                      > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and
                      bring
                      > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg.
                      Longstreet'
                      > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
                      > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have time
                      to
                      > play them.
                      >
                    • dean_essig
                      Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir! Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map. The artillery problem is an issue I ll need to resolve. I
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                        Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!

                        Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.

                        The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
                        mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had to ford the Potomac to
                        get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly suggests that what stocks they
                        had available were in the Md side trains.

                        Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the river.

                        Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about the rather mundane
                        matters of ammunition resupply on that day?

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dean,
                        > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just fine. I think you have it
                        correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such as they were with the loss of
                        many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I think some of it was forwarded
                        on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo resupply. Going from
                        memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                        Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt. Airy, the Grove family farm.
                        That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots of fields to park a wagon
                        train there.
                        >
                        >
                        > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                        > Professor of History
                        > Hagerstown Community College
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                        > Thomas,
                        >
                        > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter.
                        >
                        > What we know:
                        > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at various dates.
                        > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get some food.
                        >
                        > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and positioned "2 miles to
                        the
                        > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a reference as to rear of
                        what
                        > or who).
                        >
                        > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                        > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina? Harsh believes so.
                        >
                        > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent back into Md? This is
                        > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains across the river to avoid
                        > losing artillery ammunition.
                        >
                        > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the unknowns?
                        >
                        > Dean
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dean,
                        > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
                        > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you
                        do
                        > not have access to those books.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > Professor of History
                        > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                        > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                        > >
                        > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and
                        when
                        > you
                        > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.
                        > >
                        > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done
                        > :-)
                        > >
                        > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that
                        has
                        > your
                        > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                        > >
                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Dean,
                        > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains
                        except
                        > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and
                        > bring
                        > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg.
                        > Longstreet'
                        > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
                        > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have
                        time
                        > to
                        > > play them.
                        > >
                        >
                      • G E Mayers
                        Dean; Some of the artillery was left at Williamsport and some was left near Shepherdstown. Shepherdstown also was where the hospitals, etc were. He was also
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                          Dean;

                          Some of the artillery was left at Williamsport and some was left
                          near Shepherdstown. Shepherdstown also was where the hospitals,
                          etc were.

                          He was also protecting his only retreat route.

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:24 PM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains


                          Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!

                          Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.

                          The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't
                          recall Reilly (who at least
                          mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had
                          to ford the Potomac to
                          get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly
                          suggests that what stocks they
                          had available were in the Md side trains.

                          Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the
                          river.

                          Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about
                          the rather mundane
                          matters of ammunition resupply on that day?

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          <clemenst@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dean,
                          > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just
                          > fine. I think you have it
                          correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such
                          as they were with the loss of
                          many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I
                          think some of it was forwarded
                          on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo
                          resupply. Going from
                          memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it
                          as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                          Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt.
                          Airy, the Grove family farm.
                          That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots
                          of fields to park a wagon
                          train there.
                          >
                          >
                          > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                          > Professor of History
                          > Hagerstown Community College
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                          > Thomas,
                          >
                          > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one
                          > matter.
                          >
                          > What we know:
                          > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting
                          > there at various dates.
                          > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get
                          > some food.
                          >
                          > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and
                          > positioned "2 miles to
                          the
                          > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a
                          > reference as to rear of
                          what
                          > or who).
                          >
                          > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                          > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina?
                          > Harsh believes so.
                          >
                          > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent
                          > back into Md? This is
                          > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains
                          > across the river to avoid
                          > losing artillery ammunition.
                          >
                          > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the
                          > unknowns?
                          >
                          > Dean
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          > <clemenst@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dean,
                          > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at
                          > > the Flood, pp. 338-9
                          > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4.
                          > Let me know if you
                          do
                          > not have access to those books.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > Professor of History
                          > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                          > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                          > >
                          > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat),
                          > > if I can impose (and
                          when
                          > you
                          > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo"
                          > > exception.
                          > >
                          > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the
                          > > time this project is done
                          > :-)
                          > >
                          > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want
                          > > a copy of a product that
                          has
                          > your
                          > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          > > <clemenst@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Dean,
                          > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my
                          > > > understanding that all trains
                          except
                          > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for
                          > > food, had to go find his and
                          > bring
                          > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs
                          > > near Sharpsburg.
                          > Longstreet'
                          > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all
                          > > of his trains.
                          > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-)
                          > > > just kidding, I don't have
                          time
                          > to
                          > > play them.
                          > >
                          >
                        • Thomas Clemens
                          I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was using the river to protect his trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport. Even
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                            I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was using the river to protect his trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport. Even after he retreated on the 18th/19th his intent was to re-cross the river there and move towards Hagerstown. Giving the wagons a head start would open the roads for his infantry to move quickly. As you know, he had artillery detached to guard Shepherdstown Ford and Light's Ford, and Stuart did go to Williamsport on the 19th to lead the way.


                            Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                            Professor of History
                            Hagerstown Community College



                            >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 2:24 PM >>>
                            Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!

                            Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.

                            The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
                            mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had to ford the Potomac to
                            get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly suggests that what stocks they
                            had available were in the Md side trains.

                            Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the river.

                            Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about the rather mundane
                            matters of ammunition resupply on that day?

                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dean,
                            > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just fine. I think you have it
                            correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such as they were with the loss of
                            many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I think some of it was forwarded
                            on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo resupply. Going from
                            memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                            Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt. Airy, the Grove family farm.
                            That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots of fields to park a wagon
                            train there.
                            >
                            >
                            > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                            > Professor of History
                            > Hagerstown Community College
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                            > Thomas,
                            >
                            > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter.
                            >
                            > What we know:
                            > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at various dates.
                            > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get some food.
                            >
                            > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and positioned "2 miles to
                            the
                            > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a reference as to rear of
                            what
                            > or who).
                            >
                            > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                            > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina? Harsh believes so.
                            >
                            > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent back into Md? This is
                            > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains across the river to avoid
                            > losing artillery ammunition.
                            >
                            > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the unknowns?
                            >
                            > Dean
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Dean,
                            > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
                            > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you
                            do
                            > not have access to those books.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            > > Professor of History
                            > > Hagerstown Community College
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                            > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                            > >
                            > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and
                            when
                            > you
                            > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.
                            > >
                            > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done
                            > :-)
                            > >
                            > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that
                            has
                            > your
                            > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                            > >
                            > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Dean,
                            > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains
                            except
                            > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and
                            > bring
                            > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg.
                            > Longstreet'
                            > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
                            > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have
                            time
                            > to
                            > > play them.
                            > >
                            >
                          • bdowney@aotw.org
                            Thanks Tom - I was just going to pop on the same theme. I think this is really a key perception most people _do not_ have about the Campaign. As late as the
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                              Thanks Tom - I was just going to pop on the same theme.

                              I think this is really a key perception most people _do not_ have about the Campaign. As late as the first week of October Lee was still corresponding with management (Richmond) and elsewhere (Loring, e.g.) to determine the possibility of returning to Maryland. He abandoned the idea only reluctantly, and later than I would have thought rational (in perfect hindsight).

                              Much of Pendleton's reserve artillery was scattered on 15-18 Sept covering fords and crossings for that purpose. They gave Lee offensive options, not just a secure back door.

                              Cool stuff.

                              > -------- Original Message --------
                              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains
                              > From: "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                              > Date: Fri, February 01, 2008 2:29 pm
                              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              >
                              > Dean;
                              >
                              > Some of the artillery was left at Williamsport and some was left
                              > near Shepherdstown. Shepherdstown also was where the hospitals,
                              > etc were.
                              >
                              > He was also protecting his only retreat route.
                              >
                              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                              >
                            • dean_essig
                              Yes, I agree and have the infomation regarding the location of the various artillery units. Not only was Lee still thinking about re-entering Md from the Va
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                                Yes, I agree and have the infomation regarding the location of the various artillery units.

                                Not only was Lee still thinking about re-entering Md from the Va side, but he hadn't ruled
                                out an "attacking withdrawal" to the north, through the Union right wing to Hagerstown.

                                Trying to do that with the trains in tow would be impossible, but allowing the trains to
                                shadow the army on the Va side of the river makes a lot of sense.

                                Given the situation, this kind of decision making is breathtakingly fearless.

                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was using the river to protect his
                                trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport. Even after he retreated on the
                                18th/19th his intent was to re-cross the river there and move towards Hagerstown.
                                Giving the wagons a head start would open the roads for his infantry to move quickly. As
                                you know, he had artillery detached to guard Shepherdstown Ford and Light's Ford, and
                                Stuart did go to Williamsport on the 19th to lead the way.
                                >
                                >
                                > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                > Professor of History
                                > Hagerstown Community College
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 2:24 PM >>>
                                > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
                                >
                                > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.
                                >
                                > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
                                > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had to ford the Potomac
                                to
                                > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly suggests that what stocks
                                they
                                > had available were in the Md side trains.
                                >
                                > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the river.
                                >
                                > Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about the rather mundane
                                > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                                >
                                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Dean,
                                > > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just fine. I think you have
                                it
                                > correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such as they were with the loss
                                of
                                > many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I think some of it was
                                forwarded
                                > on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo resupply. Going from
                                > memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                                > Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt. Airy, the Grove family
                                farm.
                                > That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots of fields to park a
                                wagon
                                > train there.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                > > Professor of History
                                > > Hagerstown Community College
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                                > > Thomas,
                                > >
                                > > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter.
                                > >
                                > > What we know:
                                > > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at various dates.
                                > > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get some food.
                                > >
                                > > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and positioned "2 miles to
                                > the
                                > > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a reference as to rear of
                                > what
                                > > or who).
                                > >
                                > > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                                > > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina? Harsh believes so.
                                > >
                                > > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent back into Md? This is
                                > > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains across the river to avoid
                                > > losing artillery ammunition.
                                > >
                                > > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the unknowns?
                                > >
                                > > Dean
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Dean,
                                > > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
                                > > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you
                                > do
                                > > not have access to those books.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                > > > Professor of History
                                > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                                > > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                                > > >
                                > > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and
                                > when
                                > > you
                                > > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.
                                > > >
                                > > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is
                                done
                                > > :-)
                                > > >
                                > > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that
                                > has
                                > > your
                                > > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Dean,
                                > > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains
                                > except
                                > > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his
                                and
                                > > bring
                                > > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg.
                                > > Longstreet'
                                > > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
                                > > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have
                                > time
                                > > to
                                > > > play them.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • joseph_pierro
                                Dean: Most of the trains and reserve artillery (one battalion excepted) were ordered by Lee to cross over to the Virginia side at Williamsport even before he
                                Message 15 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                                  Dean:

                                  Most of the trains and reserve artillery (one battalion excepted)
                                  were ordered by Lee to cross over to the Virginia side at
                                  Williamsport even before he decided to make his stand at Sharpsburg.


                                  from Carman:

                                  "When Robert E. Lee, after nightfall of September 14, realized
                                  that the action at Turner's Gap had gone against him, he abandoned
                                  (temporarily, at least) his idea of a further invasion of the North
                                  into Pennsylvania, or even of remaining in Maryland, and took
                                  immediate measures to reunite with McLaws and recross the Potomac
                                  into Virginia. Those who were with Lee say that he gave no sign of
                                  disappointment and depression that his campaign had ended in failure,
                                  but we can imagine it was with a swelling heart that, at 8:00 p.m.,
                                  he sent this dispatch to McLaws:
                                  "'The day has gone against us and this army will go by Sharpsburg
                                  and cross the river. It is necessary for you to abandon
                                  your position to-night. Send your trains not required on the road to
                                  cross the river. Your troops you must have well in hand to unite with
                                  this command, which will retire by Sharpsburg. Send forward officers
                                  to explore the way, ascertain the best crossing of the Potomac, and
                                  if you can find any between you and Shepherdstown leave Shepherdstown
                                  Ford for this command. Send an officer to report to me on the
                                  Sharpsburg road, where you are and what crossing you will take. You
                                  will of course bring Anderson's division with you.'
                                  "At about the same hour, he sent a dispatch to Jackson to march
                                  up from Harper's Ferry and cover his passage of the Potomac at
                                  Shepherdstown Ford. (These orders to McLaws and Jackson contemplated
                                  the abandonment of operations against Harper's Ferry, but these had
                                  so far progressed that the place was then, virtually, in the grasp of
                                  Jackson and McLaws.) Longstreet and D. H. Hill were directed to push
                                  such of their commands and trains as were at and near Hagerstown
                                  across the Potomac at Williamsport. The three reserve artillery
                                  battalions at Beaver Creek (four miles north of Boonsboro)
                                  were ordered to move—two battalions by Williamsport into Virginia,
                                  one battalion to Keedysville."

                                  It would appear that Lee then kept them on the Va shore afterwards
                                  for so long because the operational and tactical situation remained
                                  in such a state of flux for the next few days. (Would McClellan
                                  attack on the 15th? The 16th? Would Jackson arrive on the 16th? Would
                                  McLaws arrive on the 17th?) With only a single ford at his back, the
                                  last thing Lee wanted if his lines broke was his trains and reserve
                                  artillery clogging the only route of escape.

                                  Carman again:
                                  "Late at night [of the 14th] the commander of the reserve
                                  artillery, General Pendleton (who with three battalions had, late in
                                  the afternoon, taken position on the heights of Beaver Creek, four
                                  miles north of Boonsboro) was summoned to Lee's headquarters
                                  and directed to send S. D. Lee's Battalion to Keedysville and to move
                                  with the battalions of Brown and Nelson by the shortest route to
                                  Williamsport and across the Potomac to guard the fords of the river.
                                  Pendleton hastened back to his camp, moved promptly to the Boonsboro
                                  and Williamsport Road, and by sunrise reached Jones's Cross-Roads,
                                  where the Williamsport Road intersects the Hagerstown and Sharpsburg
                                  Turnpike. Here he was informed that a large force of Union cavalry
                                  was not far ahead of him, upon which he placed some guns in position
                                  commanding the road leading to Williamsport and the Hagerstown Pike
                                  on either flank, sent to Toombs (who had passed down to Sharpsburg)
                                  for a regiment or two of infantry, and set to work collecting a band
                                  of armed stragglers to support his guns. Meanwhile, he had sent out
                                  scouting parties. These soon returned with information that the road
                                  was clear for some two miles, upon which (without waiting for
                                  infantry from Toombs) he resumed the road to destroy the 'retiring
                                  invaders' with his artillery and protect the large wagon train
                                  proceeding by the Hagerstown Road through Williamsport. Colonel
                                  Davis's cavalry had passed on the road and attacked Longstreet's
                                  train, and Pendleton—without meeting an enemy or further delay—
                                  reached Williamsport and crossed the Potomac by Light's Ford into
                                  Virginia.
                                  "Colonel Brown, with his battalion of five batteries, was ordered
                                  to guard Light's Ford and a ford two miles below. Major Nelson's
                                  battalion of five batteries went down the river road to
                                  Shepherdstown, which he reached on the sixteenth, and took
                                  position on the heights commanding Shepherdstown Ford a mile below
                                  town."

                                  In typical Pendleton fashion, once the battle was joined and the
                                  artillery needed, he failed to rise to the emergency. Carman yet
                                  again:

                                  "About mid-day [of the 17th] Lee had sent this message to
                                  Pendleton, commanding the reserve artillery at Shepherdstown Ford: 'If
                                  you have fifteen or twenty guns, suitable for our purpose, which you
                                  can spare, the general desires you to send them, with a sufficiency
                                  of ammunition. You must not take them from the fords if essential to
                                  their safety. Send up the stragglers. Take any cavalry about there
                                  and send up at the point of the sword. We want ammunition, guns, and
                                  provisions.' Pendleton could not collect the stragglers, he sent up
                                  but little ammunition, and it was not until the engagement had closed
                                  that one battery arrived at Sharpsburg."

                                  Hope some of that helps.

                                  --jake
                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Yes, I agree and have the infomation regarding the location of the
                                  various artillery units.
                                  >
                                  > Not only was Lee still thinking about re-entering Md from the Va
                                  side, but he hadn't ruled
                                  > out an "attacking withdrawal" to the north, through the Union right
                                  wing to Hagerstown.
                                  >
                                  > Trying to do that with the trains in tow would be impossible, but
                                  allowing the trains to
                                  > shadow the army on the Va side of the river makes a lot of sense.
                                  >
                                  > Given the situation, this kind of decision making is breathtakingly
                                  fearless.
                                  >
                                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                  wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was using
                                  the river to protect his
                                  > trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport. Even
                                  after he retreated on the
                                  > 18th/19th his intent was to re-cross the river there and move
                                  towards Hagerstown.
                                  > Giving the wagons a head start would open the roads for his
                                  infantry to move quickly. As
                                  > you know, he had artillery detached to guard Shepherdstown Ford and
                                  Light's Ford, and
                                  > Stuart did go to Williamsport on the 19th to lead the way.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                  > > Professor of History
                                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 2:24 PM >>>
                                  > > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
                                  > >
                                  > > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.
                                  > >
                                  > > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't
                                  recall Reilly (who at least
                                  > > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had
                                  to ford the Potomac
                                  > to
                                  > > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly
                                  suggests that what stocks
                                  > they
                                  > > had available were in the Md side trains.
                                  > >
                                  > > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the
                                  river.
                                  > >
                                  > > Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about
                                  the rather mundane
                                  > > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                  wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Dean,
                                  > > > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just
                                  fine. I think you have
                                  > it
                                  > > correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such
                                  as they were with the loss
                                  > of
                                  > > many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I
                                  think some of it was
                                  > forwarded
                                  > > on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo
                                  resupply. Going from
                                  > > memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it
                                  as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                                  > > Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt.
                                  Airy, the Grove family
                                  > farm.
                                  > > That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots
                                  of fields to park a
                                  > wagon
                                  > > train there.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                  > > > Professor of History
                                  > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                                  > > > Thomas,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one
                                  matter.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What we know:
                                  > > > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting
                                  there at various dates.
                                  > > > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get
                                  some food.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and
                                  positioned "2 miles to
                                  > > the
                                  > > > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a
                                  reference as to rear of
                                  > > what
                                  > > > or who).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                                  > > > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina?
                                  Harsh believes so.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent
                                  back into Md? This is
                                  > > > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains
                                  across the river to avoid
                                  > > > losing artillery ammunition.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the
                                  unknowns?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Dean
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                  <clemenst@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Dean,
                                  > > > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at
                                  the Flood, pp. 338-9
                                  > > > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-
                                  4. Let me know if you
                                  > > do
                                  > > > not have access to those books.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  > > > > Professor of History
                                  > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                                  > > > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat),
                                  if I can impose (and
                                  > > when
                                  > > > you
                                  > > > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo"
                                  exception.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the
                                  time this project is
                                  > done
                                  > > > :-)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want
                                  a copy of a product that
                                  > > has
                                  > > > your
                                  > > > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                  <clemenst@> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Dean,
                                  > > > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my
                                  understanding that all trains
                                  > > except
                                  > > > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for
                                  food, had to go find his
                                  > and
                                  > > > bring
                                  > > > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs
                                  near Sharpsburg.
                                  > > > Longstreet'
                                  > > > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all
                                  of his trains.
                                  > > > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-)
                                  just kidding, I don't have
                                  > > time
                                  > > > to
                                  > > > > play them.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • dean_essig
                                  Thanks Jake! That fits well with what Tom and I have been thinking. The trains were ordered across to maintain freedom of action and then, when battle was in
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                                    Thanks Jake!

                                    That fits well with what Tom and I have been thinking. The trains were ordered across to
                                    maintain freedom of action and then, when battle was in the offing, the ordinance trains
                                    (at least small arms) were brought back across from Shepherdstown.

                                    As for Pendleton's "exceptional" effort to provide reinforcements to the army, I have 2 Co,
                                    Richmond Va Howitzers (3 guns) under Watson arriving from Williamsport late on the
                                    17th. I assume this is the battery Carmen refers to.

                                    Dean

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dean:
                                    >
                                    > Most of the trains and reserve artillery (one battalion excepted)
                                    > were ordered by Lee to cross over to the Virginia side at
                                    > Williamsport even before he decided to make his stand at Sharpsburg.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > from Carman:
                                    >
                                    > "When Robert E. Lee, after nightfall of September 14, realized
                                    > that the action at Turner's Gap had gone against him, he abandoned
                                    > (temporarily, at least) his idea of a further invasion of the North
                                    > into Pennsylvania, or even of remaining in Maryland, and took
                                    > immediate measures to reunite with McLaws and recross the Potomac
                                    > into Virginia. Those who were with Lee say that he gave no sign of
                                    > disappointment and depression that his campaign had ended in failure,
                                    > but we can imagine it was with a swelling heart that, at 8:00 p.m.,
                                    > he sent this dispatch to McLaws:
                                    > "'The day has gone against us and this army will go by Sharpsburg
                                    > and cross the river. It is necessary for you to abandon
                                    > your position to-night. Send your trains not required on the road to
                                    > cross the river. Your troops you must have well in hand to unite with
                                    > this command, which will retire by Sharpsburg. Send forward officers
                                    > to explore the way, ascertain the best crossing of the Potomac, and
                                    > if you can find any between you and Shepherdstown leave Shepherdstown
                                    > Ford for this command. Send an officer to report to me on the
                                    > Sharpsburg road, where you are and what crossing you will take. You
                                    > will of course bring Anderson's division with you.'
                                    > "At about the same hour, he sent a dispatch to Jackson to march
                                    > up from Harper's Ferry and cover his passage of the Potomac at
                                    > Shepherdstown Ford. (These orders to McLaws and Jackson contemplated
                                    > the abandonment of operations against Harper's Ferry, but these had
                                    > so far progressed that the place was then, virtually, in the grasp of
                                    > Jackson and McLaws.) Longstreet and D. H. Hill were directed to push
                                    > such of their commands and trains as were at and near Hagerstown
                                    > across the Potomac at Williamsport. The three reserve artillery
                                    > battalions at Beaver Creek (four miles north of Boonsboro)
                                    > were ordered to move—two battalions by Williamsport into Virginia,
                                    > one battalion to Keedysville."
                                    >
                                    > It would appear that Lee then kept them on the Va shore afterwards
                                    > for so long because the operational and tactical situation remained
                                    > in such a state of flux for the next few days. (Would McClellan
                                    > attack on the 15th? The 16th? Would Jackson arrive on the 16th? Would
                                    > McLaws arrive on the 17th?) With only a single ford at his back, the
                                    > last thing Lee wanted if his lines broke was his trains and reserve
                                    > artillery clogging the only route of escape.
                                    >
                                    > Carman again:
                                    > "Late at night [of the 14th] the commander of the reserve
                                    > artillery, General Pendleton (who with three battalions had, late in
                                    > the afternoon, taken position on the heights of Beaver Creek, four
                                    > miles north of Boonsboro) was summoned to Lee's headquarters
                                    > and directed to send S. D. Lee's Battalion to Keedysville and to move
                                    > with the battalions of Brown and Nelson by the shortest route to
                                    > Williamsport and across the Potomac to guard the fords of the river.
                                    > Pendleton hastened back to his camp, moved promptly to the Boonsboro
                                    > and Williamsport Road, and by sunrise reached Jones's Cross-Roads,
                                    > where the Williamsport Road intersects the Hagerstown and Sharpsburg
                                    > Turnpike. Here he was informed that a large force of Union cavalry
                                    > was not far ahead of him, upon which he placed some guns in position
                                    > commanding the road leading to Williamsport and the Hagerstown Pike
                                    > on either flank, sent to Toombs (who had passed down to Sharpsburg)
                                    > for a regiment or two of infantry, and set to work collecting a band
                                    > of armed stragglers to support his guns. Meanwhile, he had sent out
                                    > scouting parties. These soon returned with information that the road
                                    > was clear for some two miles, upon which (without waiting for
                                    > infantry from Toombs) he resumed the road to destroy the 'retiring
                                    > invaders' with his artillery and protect the large wagon train
                                    > proceeding by the Hagerstown Road through Williamsport. Colonel
                                    > Davis's cavalry had passed on the road and attacked Longstreet's
                                    > train, and Pendleton—without meeting an enemy or further delay—
                                    > reached Williamsport and crossed the Potomac by Light's Ford into
                                    > Virginia.
                                    > "Colonel Brown, with his battalion of five batteries, was ordered
                                    > to guard Light's Ford and a ford two miles below. Major Nelson's
                                    > battalion of five batteries went down the river road to
                                    > Shepherdstown, which he reached on the sixteenth, and took
                                    > position on the heights commanding Shepherdstown Ford a mile below
                                    > town."
                                    >
                                    > In typical Pendleton fashion, once the battle was joined and the
                                    > artillery needed, he failed to rise to the emergency. Carman yet
                                    > again:
                                    >
                                    > "About mid-day [of the 17th] Lee had sent this message to
                                    > Pendleton, commanding the reserve artillery at Shepherdstown Ford: 'If
                                    > you have fifteen or twenty guns, suitable for our purpose, which you
                                    > can spare, the general desires you to send them, with a sufficiency
                                    > of ammunition. You must not take them from the fords if essential to
                                    > their safety. Send up the stragglers. Take any cavalry about there
                                    > and send up at the point of the sword. We want ammunition, guns, and
                                    > provisions.' Pendleton could not collect the stragglers, he sent up
                                    > but little ammunition, and it was not until the engagement had closed
                                    > that one battery arrived at Sharpsburg."
                                    >
                                    > Hope some of that helps.
                                    >
                                    > --jake
                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "dean_essig" <dean_essig@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes, I agree and have the infomation regarding the location of the
                                    > various artillery units.
                                    > >
                                    > > Not only was Lee still thinking about re-entering Md from the Va
                                    > side, but he hadn't ruled
                                    > > out an "attacking withdrawal" to the north, through the Union right
                                    > wing to Hagerstown.
                                    > >
                                    > > Trying to do that with the trains in tow would be impossible, but
                                    > allowing the trains to
                                    > > shadow the army on the Va side of the river makes a lot of sense.
                                    > >
                                    > > Given the situation, this kind of decision making is breathtakingly
                                    > fearless.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was using
                                    > the river to protect his
                                    > > trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport. Even
                                    > after he retreated on the
                                    > > 18th/19th his intent was to re-cross the river there and move
                                    > towards Hagerstown.
                                    > > Giving the wagons a head start would open the roads for his
                                    > infantry to move quickly. As
                                    > > you know, he had artillery detached to guard Shepherdstown Ford and
                                    > Light's Ford, and
                                    > > Stuart did go to Williamsport on the 19th to lead the way.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                    > > > Professor of History
                                    > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 2:24 PM >>>
                                    > > > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't
                                    > recall Reilly (who at least
                                    > > > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had
                                    > to ford the Potomac
                                    > > to
                                    > > > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly
                                    > suggests that what stocks
                                    > > they
                                    > > > had available were in the Md side trains.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the
                                    > river.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about
                                    > the rather mundane
                                    > > > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Dean,
                                    > > > > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just
                                    > fine. I think you have
                                    > > it
                                    > > > correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such
                                    > as they were with the loss
                                    > > of
                                    > > > many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I
                                    > think some of it was
                                    > > forwarded
                                    > > > on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo
                                    > resupply. Going from
                                    > > > memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it
                                    > as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                                    > > > Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt.
                                    > Airy, the Grove family
                                    > > farm.
                                    > > > That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots
                                    > of fields to park a
                                    > > wagon
                                    > > > train there.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                    > > > > Professor of History
                                    > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                                    > > > > Thomas,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one
                                    > matter.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > What we know:
                                    > > > > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting
                                    > there at various dates.
                                    > > > > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get
                                    > some food.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and
                                    > positioned "2 miles to
                                    > > > the
                                    > > > > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a
                                    > reference as to rear of
                                    > > > what
                                    > > > > or who).
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                                    > > > > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina?
                                    > Harsh believes so.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent
                                    > back into Md? This is
                                    > > > > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains
                                    > across the river to avoid
                                    > > > > losing artillery ammunition.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the
                                    > unknowns?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Dean
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                    > <clemenst@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Dean,
                                    > > > > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at
                                    > the Flood, pp. 338-9
                                    > > > > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-
                                    > 4. Let me know if you
                                    > > > do
                                    > > > > not have access to those books.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    > > > > > Professor of History
                                    > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                                    > > > > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat),
                                    > if I can impose (and
                                    > > > when
                                    > > > > you
                                    > > > > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo"
                                    > exception.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the
                                    > time this project is
                                    > > done
                                    > > > > :-)
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want
                                    > a copy of a product that
                                    > > > has
                                    > > > > your
                                    > > > > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                    > <clemenst@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Dean,
                                    > > > > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my
                                    > understanding that all trains
                                    > > > except
                                    > > > > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for
                                    > food, had to go find his
                                    > > and
                                    > > > > bring
                                    > > > > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs
                                    > near Sharpsburg.
                                    > > > > Longstreet'
                                    > > > > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all
                                    > of his trains.
                                    > > > > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-)
                                    > just kidding, I don't have
                                    > > > time
                                    > > > > to
                                    > > > > > play them.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Joseph Pierro
                                    Well, originally, the trains were ordered across because EVERYONE was being ordered across. Lee s first inclination after losing the So. Mtn. passes (as the
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                                      Well, originally, the trains were ordered across because EVERYONE was being ordered across. Lee's first inclination after losing the So. Mtn. passes (as the order to McLaws shows) was to break off the entire campaign and retreat to Md. (After all, in a withdrawal, you send the trains first and keep the infantry in the rear -- the closest proximity to the pursuing enemy -- to conduct a fighting retreat. Recall Lee's similar orders regarding Imboden on the withdrawal from Gettysburg the following year.)

                                      It was only when he realized that McClellan wasn't pressing the advantage, and when word arrived of the fall of Harper's Ferry, that he decided to hold position with his infantry on the east bank of the Potomac and accept battle.

                                      As for the rest, given the fact that Pendleton had nearly three days to rest and refit his command, you have to wonder how it was that he managed to contribute next to nothing (no offense to Watson's Battery intended) on the day of the battle.

                                      In fact, one is hard pressed to think of a single instance where Pendleton, as chief of artillery, ever HELPED anyone (other than the Army of the Potomac) on a battlefield.

                                      --jake
                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: dean_essig <dean_essig@...>
                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 7:25:52 PM
                                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains

                                      Thanks Jake!

                                      That fits well with what Tom and I have been thinking. The trains were ordered across to
                                      maintain freedom of action and then, when battle was in the offing, the ordinance trains
                                      (at least small arms) were brought back across from Shepherdstown.

                                      As for Pendleton's "exceptional" effort to provide reinforcements to the army, I have 2 Co,
                                      Richmond Va Howitzers (3 guns) under Watson arriving from Williamsport late on the
                                      17th. I assume this is the battery Carmen refers to.

                                      Dean

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                                    • dean_essig
                                      Excellent post Jake and I agree fully! Pendleton sure does have an interesting relationship with the good functioning of the ANVa. Amazing that Lee put up with
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                                        Excellent post Jake and I agree fully!

                                        Pendleton sure does have an interesting relationship with the good functioning of the
                                        ANVa. Amazing that Lee put up with it.

                                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Well, originally, the trains were ordered across because EVERYONE was being ordered
                                        across. Lee's first inclination after losing the So. Mtn. passes (as the order to McLaws
                                        shows) was to break off the entire campaign and retreat to Md. (After all, in a withdrawal,
                                        you send the trains first and keep the infantry in the rear -- the closest proximity to the
                                        pursuing enemy -- to conduct a fighting retreat. Recall Lee's similar orders regarding
                                        Imboden on the withdrawal from Gettysburg the following year.)
                                        >
                                        > It was only when he realized that McClellan wasn't pressing the advantage, and when
                                        word arrived of the fall of Harper's Ferry, that he decided to hold position with his infantry
                                        on the east bank of the Potomac and accept battle.
                                        >
                                        > As for the rest, given the fact that Pendleton had nearly three days to rest and refit his
                                        command, you have to wonder how it was that he managed to contribute next to nothing
                                        (no offense to Watson's Battery intended) on the day of the battle.
                                        >
                                        > In fact, one is hard pressed to think of a single instance where Pendleton, as chief of
                                        artillery, ever HELPED anyone (other than the Army of the Potomac) on a battlefield.
                                        >
                                        > --jake
                                        > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > From: dean_essig <dean_essig@...>
                                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 7:25:52 PM
                                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains
                                        >
                                        > Thanks Jake!
                                        >
                                        > That fits well with what Tom and I have been thinking. The trains were ordered across to
                                        > maintain freedom of action and then, when battle was in the offing, the ordinance trains
                                        > (at least small arms) were brought back across from Shepherdstown.
                                        >
                                        > As for Pendleton's "exceptional" effort to provide reinforcements to the army, I have 2
                                        Co,
                                        > Richmond Va Howitzers (3 guns) under Watson arriving from Williamsport late on the
                                        > 17th. I assume this is the battery Carmen refers to.
                                        >
                                        > Dean
                                        >
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                                      • G E Mayers
                                        Dear Jake; I have been working on a fictional novel telling the story of the First Maryland Campaign for reader possibly not as learned as we are in this
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                                          Dear Jake;

                                          I have been working on a fictional novel telling the story of the
                                          First Maryland Campaign for reader possibly not as learned as we
                                          are in this group, concentrating on the unit level with the
                                          Fourth NC (The Bloody Fourth) and then the larger command level
                                          with Longstreet and Army HQ.

                                          Where I've run into a little dilemma is knowing where Anderson's
                                          brigade was positioned _after_ it was on the Old Sharpsburg Road
                                          to do a grand wheel back UP South Mountain to take the Federals
                                          in the flank and later, when it was determined to abandon the
                                          mountain, which route or routes Anderson's Brigade retreated
                                          towards Sharpsburg.

                                          Can you search your Carman MS and, under separate email, provide
                                          whatever information he might have? (Or, post here, if not
                                          terribly, terribly long and lengthy!)

                                          Thank you!

                                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:09 PM
                                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains


                                          Dean:

                                          Most of the trains and reserve artillery (one battalion excepted)
                                          were ordered by Lee to cross over to the Virginia side at
                                          Williamsport even before he decided to make his stand at
                                          Sharpsburg.


                                          from Carman:

                                          "When Robert E. Lee, after nightfall of September 14,
                                          realized
                                          that the action at Turner's Gap had gone against him, he
                                          abandoned
                                          (temporarily, at least) his idea of a further invasion of the
                                          North
                                          into Pennsylvania, or even of remaining in Maryland, and took
                                          immediate measures to reunite with McLaws and recross the Potomac
                                          into Virginia. Those who were with Lee say that he gave no sign
                                          of
                                          disappointment and depression that his campaign had ended in
                                          failure,
                                          but we can imagine it was with a swelling heart that, at 8:00
                                          p.m.,
                                          he sent this dispatch to McLaws:
                                          "'The day has gone against us and this army will go by
                                          Sharpsburg
                                          and cross the river. It is necessary for you to abandon
                                          your position to-night. Send your trains not required on the road
                                          to
                                          cross the river. Your troops you must have well in hand to unite
                                          with
                                          this command, which will retire by Sharpsburg. Send forward
                                          officers
                                          to explore the way, ascertain the best crossing of the Potomac,
                                          and
                                          if you can find any between you and Shepherdstown leave
                                          Shepherdstown
                                          Ford for this command. Send an officer to report to me on the
                                          Sharpsburg road, where you are and what crossing you will take.
                                          You
                                          will of course bring Anderson's division with you.'
                                          "At about the same hour, he sent a dispatch to Jackson to
                                          march
                                          up from Harper's Ferry and cover his passage of the Potomac at
                                          Shepherdstown Ford. (These orders to McLaws and Jackson
                                          contemplated
                                          the abandonment of operations against Harper's Ferry, but these
                                          had
                                          so far progressed that the place was then, virtually, in the
                                          grasp of
                                          Jackson and McLaws.) Longstreet and D. H. Hill were directed to
                                          push
                                          such of their commands and trains as were at and near Hagerstown
                                          across the Potomac at Williamsport. The three reserve artillery
                                          battalions at Beaver Creek (four miles north of Boonsboro)
                                          were ordered to move-two battalions by Williamsport into
                                          Virginia,
                                          one battalion to Keedysville."

                                          It would appear that Lee then kept them on the Va shore
                                          afterwards
                                          for so long because the operational and tactical situation
                                          remained
                                          in such a state of flux for the next few days. (Would McClellan
                                          attack on the 15th? The 16th? Would Jackson arrive on the 16th?
                                          Would
                                          McLaws arrive on the 17th?) With only a single ford at his back,
                                          the
                                          last thing Lee wanted if his lines broke was his trains and
                                          reserve
                                          artillery clogging the only route of escape.

                                          Carman again:
                                          "Late at night [of the 14th] the commander of the reserve
                                          artillery, General Pendleton (who with three battalions had, late
                                          in
                                          the afternoon, taken position on the heights of Beaver Creek,
                                          four
                                          miles north of Boonsboro) was summoned to Lee's headquarters
                                          and directed to send S. D. Lee's Battalion to Keedysville and to
                                          move
                                          with the battalions of Brown and Nelson by the shortest route to
                                          Williamsport and across the Potomac to guard the fords of the
                                          river.
                                          Pendleton hastened back to his camp, moved promptly to the
                                          Boonsboro
                                          and Williamsport Road, and by sunrise reached Jones's
                                          Cross-Roads,
                                          where the Williamsport Road intersects the Hagerstown and
                                          Sharpsburg
                                          Turnpike. Here he was informed that a large force of Union
                                          cavalry
                                          was not far ahead of him, upon which he placed some guns in
                                          position
                                          commanding the road leading to Williamsport and the Hagerstown
                                          Pike
                                          on either flank, sent to Toombs (who had passed down to
                                          Sharpsburg)
                                          for a regiment or two of infantry, and set to work collecting a
                                          band
                                          of armed stragglers to support his guns. Meanwhile, he had sent
                                          out
                                          scouting parties. These soon returned with information that the
                                          road
                                          was clear for some two miles, upon which (without waiting for
                                          infantry from Toombs) he resumed the road to destroy the
                                          'retiring
                                          invaders' with his artillery and protect the large wagon train
                                          proceeding by the Hagerstown Road through Williamsport. Colonel
                                          Davis's cavalry had passed on the road and attacked Longstreet's
                                          train, and Pendleton-without meeting an enemy or further delay-
                                          reached Williamsport and crossed the Potomac by Light's Ford into
                                          Virginia.
                                          "Colonel Brown, with his battalion of five batteries, was
                                          ordered
                                          to guard Light's Ford and a ford two miles below. Major Nelson's
                                          battalion of five batteries went down the river road to
                                          Shepherdstown, which he reached on the sixteenth, and took
                                          position on the heights commanding Shepherdstown Ford a mile
                                          below
                                          town."

                                          In typical Pendleton fashion, once the battle was joined and the
                                          artillery needed, he failed to rise to the emergency. Carman yet
                                          again:

                                          "About mid-day [of the 17th] Lee had sent this message to
                                          Pendleton, commanding the reserve artillery at Shepherdstown
                                          Ford: 'If
                                          you have fifteen or twenty guns, suitable for our purpose, which
                                          you
                                          can spare, the general desires you to send them, with a
                                          sufficiency
                                          of ammunition. You must not take them from the fords if essential
                                          to
                                          their safety. Send up the stragglers. Take any cavalry about
                                          there
                                          and send up at the point of the sword. We want ammunition, guns,
                                          and
                                          provisions.' Pendleton could not collect the stragglers, he sent
                                          up
                                          but little ammunition, and it was not until the engagement had
                                          closed
                                          that one battery arrived at Sharpsburg."

                                          Hope some of that helps.

                                          --jake
                                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "dean_essig"
                                          <dean_essig@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Yes, I agree and have the infomation regarding the location of
                                          > the
                                          various artillery units.
                                          >
                                          > Not only was Lee still thinking about re-entering Md from the
                                          > Va
                                          side, but he hadn't ruled
                                          > out an "attacking withdrawal" to the north, through the Union
                                          > right
                                          wing to Hagerstown.
                                          >
                                          > Trying to do that with the trains in tow would be impossible,
                                          > but
                                          allowing the trains to
                                          > shadow the army on the Va side of the river makes a lot of
                                          > sense.
                                          >
                                          > Given the situation, this kind of decision making is
                                          > breathtakingly
                                          fearless.
                                          >
                                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                          > <clemenst@>
                                          wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was
                                          > > using
                                          the river to protect his
                                          > trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport.
                                          > Even
                                          after he retreated on the
                                          > 18th/19th his intent was to re-cross the river there and move
                                          towards Hagerstown.
                                          > Giving the wagons a head start would open the roads for his
                                          infantry to move quickly. As
                                          > you know, he had artillery detached to guard Shepherdstown Ford
                                          > and
                                          Light's Ford, and
                                          > Stuart did go to Williamsport on the 19th to lead the way.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                          > > Professor of History
                                          > > Hagerstown Community College
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 2:24 PM >>>
                                          > > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
                                          > >
                                          > > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the
                                          > > map.
                                          > >
                                          > > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I
                                          > > don't
                                          recall Reilly (who at least
                                          > > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they
                                          > > had
                                          to ford the Potomac
                                          > to
                                          > > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly
                                          suggests that what stocks
                                          > they
                                          > > had available were in the Md side trains.
                                          > >
                                          > > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across
                                          > > the
                                          river.
                                          > >
                                          > > Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections
                                          > > about
                                          the rather mundane
                                          > > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                          > > <clemenst@>
                                          wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Dean,
                                          > > > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is
                                          > > > just
                                          fine. I think you have
                                          > it
                                          > > correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains,
                                          > > such
                                          as they were with the loss
                                          > of
                                          > > many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I
                                          think some of it was
                                          > forwarded
                                          > > on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo
                                          resupply. Going from
                                          > > memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes
                                          > > it
                                          as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                                          > > Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on
                                          > > Mt.
                                          Airy, the Grove family
                                          > farm.
                                          > > That would also be logical for there was access to water and
                                          > > lots
                                          of fields to park a
                                          > wagon
                                          > > train there.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                          > > > Professor of History
                                          > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                                          > > > Thomas,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but
                                          > > > one
                                          matter.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > What we know:
                                          > > > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting
                                          there at various dates.
                                          > > > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could
                                          > > > get
                                          some food.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md
                                          > > > and
                                          positioned "2 miles to
                                          > > the
                                          > > > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but
                                          > > > w/o a
                                          reference as to rear of
                                          > > what
                                          > > > or who).
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                                          > > > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in
                                          > > > Virgina?
                                          Harsh believes so.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were
                                          > > > sent
                                          back into Md? This is
                                          > > > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve
                                          > > > Trains
                                          across the river to avoid
                                          > > > losing artillery ammunition.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the
                                          unknowns?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Dean
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                          <clemenst@> wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Dean,
                                          > > > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken
                                          > > > > at
                                          the Flood, pp. 338-9
                                          > > > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp.
                                          > > > 193-
                                          4. Let me know if you
                                          > > do
                                          > > > not have access to those books.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                          > > > > Professor of History
                                          > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                                          > > > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean
                                          > > > > feat),
                                          if I can impose (and
                                          > > when
                                          > > > you
                                          > > > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but
                                          > > > > ammo"
                                          exception.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by
                                          > > > > the
                                          time this project is
                                          > done
                                          > > > :-)
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll
                                          > > > > want
                                          a copy of a product that
                                          > > has
                                          > > > your
                                          > > > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                          <clemenst@> wrote:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Dean,
                                          > > > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my
                                          understanding that all trains
                                          > > except
                                          > > > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for
                                          food, had to go find his
                                          > and
                                          > > > bring
                                          > > > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found
                                          > > > > theirs
                                          near Sharpsburg.
                                          > > > Longstreet'
                                          > > > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not
                                          > > > > all
                                          of his trains.
                                          > > > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game?
                                          > > > > > :-)
                                          just kidding, I don't have
                                          > > time
                                          > > > to
                                          > > > > play them.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Thomas Clemens
                                          Dean, A quick check of CS artillery memoirs, etc does not definitely show any location of the ammunition reserve trains. sorry. Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Feb 2, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dean,
                                            A quick check of CS artillery memoirs, etc does not definitely show any location of the ammunition reserve trains. sorry.

                                            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                            Professor of History
                                            Hagerstown Community College


                                            >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 02/01/08 2:24 PM >>>
                                            Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!

                                            Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.

                                            The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
                                            mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had to ford the Potomac to
                                            get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly suggests that what stocks they
                                            had available were in the Md side trains.

                                            Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the river.

                                            Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about the rather mundane
                                            matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                                          • Dean Essig
                                            Tom, Thanks for looking. It looks like the issue might be moot for me anyway, Mt Airy is off my map area (very similar to the Carmen-Cope maps) to the SW, so
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Feb 2, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Tom,

                                              Thanks for looking. It looks like the issue might be
                                              moot for me anyway, Mt Airy is off my map area (very
                                              similar to the Carmen-Cope maps) to the SW, so guns
                                              looking to reload will have to shoot off the map there
                                              (with an explanation of when they come back). Since
                                              they are already going off the map, whether the trains
                                              are at Mt Airy, Shepherdstown, or Boetler's matters
                                              little... it will be a while in real time before they
                                              come back.

                                              Dean

                                              --- Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...> wrote:

                                              > Dean,
                                              > A quick check of CS artillery memoirs, etc does not
                                              > definitely show any location of the ammunition
                                              > reserve trains. sorry.
                                              >
                                              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                              > Professor of History
                                              > Hagerstown Community College
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 02/01/08
                                              > 2:24 PM >>>
                                              > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
                                              >
                                              > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains
                                              > on the map.
                                              >
                                              > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to
                                              > resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
                                              > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else
                                              > suggesting they had to ford the Potomac to
                                              > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this
                                              > indirectly suggests that what stocks they
                                              > had available were in the Md side trains.
                                              >
                                              > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting
                                              > across the river.
                                              >
                                              > Do you know of any other battery commanders
                                              > recollections about the rather mundane
                                              > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >



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