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Re: Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Thank you Gerry and Harry--fortunately for me I have both. I see references about straggling and bare feet but nothing specific yet about the Macadamized
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 16, 2008
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      Thank you Gerry and Harry--fortunately for me I have both. I see
      references about straggling and bare feet but nothing specific yet
      about the Macadamized turnpikes, but Carman has a couple. Just makes
      sense though that bare feet walking on crushed stone does not work no
      matter how tough those feet may be, IMO.

      Reminds me of my Conn. days when a fellow runner, Dr. Charlie
      Robinson, would run road races in bare feet! He was about 25 years
      older than I and always beat me--I started catching up when he
      reached his 70's. Of course his feet were toughened before he did
      this consistently and he did wear socks in the winter. I assume he
      had good biomechanics: no flat feet, no bunions, etc. Still, I always
      marveled at him. BTW, his doctorate was reportedly in psychology,
      figures.

      Larry F.

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > For those who may be confused, there are two collections, one from
      Kent State and one from UNC. They are two different collections of
      Gallagher edited essays on the Maryland Campaign.
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: G E Mayers
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 6:08 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.
      >
      >
      > Dear Larry,
      >
      > The Gallagher book "Antietam" is the one I was referring to.
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 6:02 PM
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.
      >
      > Thanks Gerry, I will check out that book and his other book of
      > essays, "Antietam."
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Larry;
      > >
      > > To the best of my knowledge the National Road was definitely
      > > macadamized; the Boonsborough Pike may have been but, since it
      > > led right into Sharpsburg, I would doubt it.
      > >
      > > The Hagerstown Turnpike also might have been macadamized but
      > > again might not.
      > >
      > > At that point in the war, Southern footsoles were not as tough
      > > as
      > > they would be about a year later. Straggling due to the road
      > > surfaces was a major problem during the campaign.
      > >
      > > Gary Gallaher's editing of the volume titled "The Antietam
      > > Campaign" has several good essays in it that might be helpful.
      > >
      > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      > >
      > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      > > from
      > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
      > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 4:46 PM
      > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.
      > >
      > >
      > > If folks have some answers/opinions re the below I'd like to
      > > hear
      > > them
      > > but pls don't spend time researching: if you have good specific
      > > references pls let me know.
      > >
      > > Macadamized (crushed rock) roads according to Carman were
      > > everywhere
      > > but he does not say which roads were and to what length or
      > > discuss the
      > > quality of the use of crushed rock. My guess is that the
      > > National
      > > Road
      > > was fully macadamized as were many of the main roads leading
      > > out
      > > of
      > > D.C. How about the roads/pikes around Sharpsburg? My question
      > > has
      > > to do
      > > with the many barefoot Confederates coming out of Virginia and
      > > marching
      > > around during the Maryland Campaign. Straggling was heavy on
      > > both
      > > sides
      > > but wasn't the factor of shod v. unshod feet more of a factor
      > > for
      > > the
      > > Confederates? Or are road surfaces during the campaign of very
      > > minor
      > > concern? I wondered about Jackson's slow marches to Martinsburg
      > > from
      > > Frederick and then to HF--barefooted, slow soldiers?
      > >
      > > <snip>
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Harry Smeltzer
      Back in the 70 s, when a different version of me ran cross-country, we would occasionally run on the blacktop roads barefoot to toughen up our feet. We d also
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 16, 2008
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        Back in the 70's, when a different version of me ran cross-country, we would
        occasionally run on the blacktop roads barefoot to toughen up our feet.
        We'd also spray the soles of our feet with something called "Tuf Skin" - I
        don't think it actually made your skin tough, but we thought it did.
        Everyone wanted to be Abebe Bikila.

        Yep, I imagine macadam (not nearly as smooth as blacktop, and less stable)
        would wreak havoc on bare feet, no matter how tough.



        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 7:20 PM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.



        Thank you Gerry and Harry--fortunately for me I have both. I see
        references about straggling and bare feet but nothing specific yet
        about the Macadamized turnpikes, but Carman has a couple. Just makes
        sense though that bare feet walking on crushed stone does not work no
        matter how tough those feet may be, IMO.

        Reminds me of my Conn. days when a fellow runner, Dr. Charlie
        Robinson, would run road races in bare feet! He was about 25 years
        older than I and always beat me--I started catching up when he
        reached his 70's. Of course his feet were toughened before he did
        this consistently and he did wear socks in the winter. I assume he
        had good biomechanics: no flat feet, no bunions, etc. Still, I always
        marveled at him. BTW, his doctorate was reportedly in psychology,
        figures.

        Larry F.

        --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > For those who may be confused, there are two collections, one from
        Kent State and one from UNC. They are two different collections of
        Gallagher edited essays on the Maryland Campaign.
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: G E Mayers
        > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 6:08 PM
        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.
        >
        >
        > Dear Larry,
        >
        > The Gallagher book "Antietam" is the one I was referring to.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 6:02 PM
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.
        >
        > Thanks Gerry, I will check out that book and his other book of
        > essays, "Antietam."
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Larry;
        > >
        > > To the best of my knowledge the National Road was definitely
        > > macadamized; the Boonsborough Pike may have been but, since it
        > > led right into Sharpsburg, I would doubt it.
        > >
        > > The Hagerstown Turnpike also might have been macadamized but
        > > again might not.
        > >
        > > At that point in the war, Southern footsoles were not as tough
        > > as
        > > they would be about a year later. Straggling due to the road
        > > surfaces was a major problem during the campaign.
        > >
        > > Gary Gallaher's editing of the volume titled "The Antietam
        > > Campaign" has several good essays in it that might be helpful.
        > >
        > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        > >
        > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        > > from
        > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
        > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 4:46 PM
        > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.
        > >
        > >
        > > If folks have some answers/opinions re the below I'd like to
        > > hear
        > > them
        > > but pls don't spend time researching: if you have good specific
        > > references pls let me know.
        > >
        > > Macadamized (crushed rock) roads according to Carman were
        > > everywhere
        > > but he does not say which roads were and to what length or
        > > discuss the
        > > quality of the use of crushed rock. My guess is that the
        > > National
        > > Road
        > > was fully macadamized as were many of the main roads leading
        > > out
        > > of
        > > D.C. How about the roads/pikes around Sharpsburg? My question
        > > has
        > > to do
        > > with the many barefoot Confederates coming out of Virginia and
        > > marching
        > > around during the Maryland Campaign. Straggling was heavy on
        > > both
        > > sides
        > > but wasn't the factor of shod v. unshod feet more of a factor
        > > for
        > > the
        > > Confederates? Or are road surfaces during the campaign of very
        > > minor
        > > concern? I wondered about Jackson's slow marches to Martinsburg
        > > from
        > > Frederick and then to HF--barefooted, slow soldiers?
        > >
        > > <snip>
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thomas Clemens
        Yes the dates of destruction of bridges, Johnson s orders, are correct. Hagerstown Pike and Boonsboro Shepherdstown Pike were private toll roads. Although
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 16, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Yes the dates of destruction of bridges, Johnson's orders, are correct. Hagerstown Pike and Boonsboro Shepherdstown Pike were private toll roads. Although perhaps not of the quality of the National Road, both were nominally macademized.
          There are several accounts of shoeless Confederates being weeded out before crossing the Potomac. Supposedly they were sent to Winchester to get supplied with shoes and then meet Lee in Hagerstown area. Therfore, most rebs in the MD campaign had shoes, or at least were supposed to have shoes. I have a newspaper account from a Lt. writing his hometown paper about guys left in VA for lack of shoes, or other physical ailments.


          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 01/16/08 4:46 PM >>>
          If folks have some answers/opinions re the below I'd like to hear them
          but pls don't spend time researching: if you have good specific
          references pls let me know.

          Macadamized (crushed rock) roads according to Carman were everywhere
          but he does not say which roads were and to what length or discuss the
          quality of the use of crushed rock. My guess is that the National Road
          was fully macadamized as were many of the main roads leading out of
          D.C. How about the roads/pikes around Sharpsburg? My question has to do
          with the many barefoot Confederates coming out of Virginia and marching
          around during the Maryland Campaign. Straggling was heavy on both sides
          but wasn't the factor of shod v. unshod feet more of a factor for the
          Confederates? Or are road surfaces during the campaign of very minor
          concern? I wondered about Jackson's slow marches to Martinsburg from
          Frederick and then to HF--barefooted, slow soldiers?

          I've read that the bridges at Point of Rocks, Shepherdstown, and
          Brunswick were all burned at Jackson's orders (Johnston's?) on 9 June
          1861--I have 2 references (Robertson: "Stonewall" and
          Turner "Railroads" showing the RR bridge at HF was blown up on 14 June.
          Are these dates correct?

          The RR bridge at HF was the only bridge across either river in 1861?
          But what about the Winchester and Potomac RR; did it cross the
          Shenendoah at HF or how did it connect with the B&O? I understand that
          during the Maryland Campaign the pontoon bridge above the burned B&O RR
          bridge was the only bridge still intact?

          Thank you,
          Larry F.
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Thanks Tom, Any idea about the RR bridge for the Winchester Potomac? Was there a RR bridge that carried the WP across the Shenandoah or Potomac near HF? I
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 16, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks Tom,

            Any idea about the RR bridge for the Winchester Potomac? Was there a
            RR bridge that carried the WP across the Shenandoah or Potomac near
            HF?

            I wonder if the Macadamized road also had a bad effort upon horses.
            Of course they had shoes but I guess they would last the month that
            they spend in Maryland regardless. I read in Carman that the
            Confederates tried to weed out weaker horses before entering
            Maryland; I also read that some Confederates threw away their shoes
            so they could stay in Virginia.

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Yes the dates of destruction of bridges, Johnson's orders, are
            correct. Hagerstown Pike and Boonsboro Shepherdstown Pike were
            private toll roads. Although perhaps not of the quality of the
            National Road, both were nominally macademized.
            > There are several accounts of shoeless Confederates being weeded
            out before crossing the Potomac. Supposedly they were sent to
            Winchester to get supplied with shoes and then meet Lee in Hagerstown
            area. Therfore, most rebs in the MD campaign had shoes, or at least
            were supposed to have shoes. I have a newspaper account from a Lt.
            writing his hometown paper about guys left in VA for lack of shoes,
            or other physical ailments.
            >
            >
            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
            >
            >
            > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 01/16/08 4:46 PM >>>
            > If folks have some answers/opinions re the below I'd like to hear
            them
            > but pls don't spend time researching: if you have good specific
            > references pls let me know.
            >
            > Macadamized (crushed rock) roads according to Carman were
            everywhere
            > but he does not say which roads were and to what length or discuss
            the
            > quality of the use of crushed rock. My guess is that the National
            Road
            > was fully macadamized as were many of the main roads leading out of
            > D.C. How about the roads/pikes around Sharpsburg? My question has
            to do
            > with the many barefoot Confederates coming out of Virginia and
            marching
            > around during the Maryland Campaign. Straggling was heavy on both
            sides
            > but wasn't the factor of shod v. unshod feet more of a factor for
            the
            > Confederates? Or are road surfaces during the campaign of very
            minor
            > concern? I wondered about Jackson's slow marches to Martinsburg
            from
            > Frederick and then to HF--barefooted, slow soldiers?
            >
            > I've read that the bridges at Point of Rocks, Shepherdstown, and
            > Brunswick were all burned at Jackson's orders (Johnston's?) on 9
            June
            > 1861--I have 2 references (Robertson: "Stonewall" and
            > Turner "Railroads" showing the RR bridge at HF was blown up on 14
            June.
            > Are these dates correct?
            >
            > The RR bridge at HF was the only bridge across either river in
            1861?
            > But what about the Winchester and Potomac RR; did it cross the
            > Shenendoah at HF or how did it connect with the B&O? I understand
            that
            > during the Maryland Campaign the pontoon bridge above the burned
            B&O RR
            > bridge was the only bridge still intact?
            >
            > Thank you,
            > Larry F.
            >
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Back then running shoes supplied little support anyway IIRC. In recent years, the great variety of shoes makes it easy. Now I run so slow and short that
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 16, 2008
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              Back then "running" shoes supplied little support anyway IIRC. In
              recent years, the great variety of shoes makes it easy. Now I run so
              slow and short that whatever Costco has on sale is good enough.

              My guess is that CW Macadamized roads unless they were well
              maintained probably had more dirt than crushed stone on the roadbed.

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Back in the 70's, when a different version of me ran cross-country,
              we would
              > occasionally run on the blacktop roads barefoot to toughen up our
              feet.
              > We'd also spray the soles of our feet with something called "Tuf
              Skin" - I
              > don't think it actually made your skin tough, but we thought it did.
              > Everyone wanted to be Abebe Bikila.
              >
              > Yep, I imagine macadam (not nearly as smooth as blacktop, and less
              stable)
              > would wreak havoc on bare feet, no matter how tough.
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 7:20 PM
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.
              >
              >
              >
              > Thank you Gerry and Harry--fortunately for me I have both. I see
              > references about straggling and bare feet but nothing specific yet
              > about the Macadamized turnpikes, but Carman has a couple. Just
              makes
              > sense though that bare feet walking on crushed stone does not work
              no
              > matter how tough those feet may be, IMO.
              >
              > Reminds me of my Conn. days when a fellow runner, Dr. Charlie
              > Robinson, would run road races in bare feet! He was about 25 years
              > older than I and always beat me--I started catching up when he
              > reached his 70's. Of course his feet were toughened before he did
              > this consistently and he did wear socks in the winter. I assume he
              > had good biomechanics: no flat feet, no bunions, etc. Still, I
              always
              > marveled at him. BTW, his doctorate was reportedly in psychology,
              > figures.
              >
              > Larry F.
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > For those who may be confused, there are two collections, one
              from
              > Kent State and one from UNC. They are two different collections of
              > Gallagher edited essays on the Maryland Campaign.
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: G E Mayers
              > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 6:08 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.
              > >
              > >
              > > Dear Larry,
              > >
              > > The Gallagher book "Antietam" is the one I was referring to.
              > >
              > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              > >
              > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
              > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 6:02 PM
              > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.
              > >
              > > Thanks Gerry, I will check out that book and his other book of
              > > essays, "Antietam."
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Dear Larry;
              > > >
              > > > To the best of my knowledge the National Road was definitely
              > > > macadamized; the Boonsborough Pike may have been but, since it
              > > > led right into Sharpsburg, I would doubt it.
              > > >
              > > > The Hagerstown Turnpike also might have been macadamized but
              > > > again might not.
              > > >
              > > > At that point in the war, Southern footsoles were not as tough
              > > > as
              > > > they would be about a year later. Straggling due to the road
              > > > surfaces was a major problem during the campaign.
              > > >
              > > > Gary Gallaher's editing of the volume titled "The Antietam
              > > > Campaign" has several good essays in it that might be helpful.
              > > >
              > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              > > >
              > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
              > > > from
              > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
              > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 4:46 PM
              > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Macadamized turnpikes, RR's, etc.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > If folks have some answers/opinions re the below I'd like to
              > > > hear
              > > > them
              > > > but pls don't spend time researching: if you have good specific
              > > > references pls let me know.
              > > >
              > > > Macadamized (crushed rock) roads according to Carman were
              > > > everywhere
              > > > but he does not say which roads were and to what length or
              > > > discuss the
              > > > quality of the use of crushed rock. My guess is that the
              > > > National
              > > > Road
              > > > was fully macadamized as were many of the main roads leading
              > > > out
              > > > of
              > > > D.C. How about the roads/pikes around Sharpsburg? My question
              > > > has
              > > > to do
              > > > with the many barefoot Confederates coming out of Virginia and
              > > > marching
              > > > around during the Maryland Campaign. Straggling was heavy on
              > > > both
              > > > sides
              > > > but wasn't the factor of shod v. unshod feet more of a factor
              > > > for
              > > > the
              > > > Confederates? Or are road surfaces during the campaign of very
              > > > minor
              > > > concern? I wondered about Jackson's slow marches to Martinsburg
              > > > from
              > > > Frederick and then to HF--barefooted, slow soldiers?
              > > >
              > > > <snip>
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Thomas Clemens
              Larry, Only one bridge crossed the river at HF. It carried the B&O RR across the river as well as foot traffic. On the VA shore a station lay between the B&O
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 17, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Larry,
                Only one bridge crossed the river at HF. It carried the B&O RR across the river as well as foot traffic. On the VA shore a station lay between the B&O which curved to the right and went west, and the Winchester & Potomac which went straight ahead. Although the station is gone the same split in the tracks exists today.


                Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Thanks Tom--that clears that up for me. ... across the river as well as foot traffic. On the VA shore a station lay between the B&O which curved to the right
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 17, 2008
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                  Thanks Tom--that clears that up for me.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Larry,
                  > Only one bridge crossed the river at HF. It carried the B&O RR
                  across the river as well as foot traffic. On the VA shore a station
                  lay between the B&O which curved to the right and went west, and the
                  Winchester & Potomac which went straight ahead. Although the station
                  is gone the same split in the tracks exists today.
                  >
                  >
                  > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
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