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Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Stephen, If you have read Harsh s Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is a discussion there about Stuart s involvement in that campaign as well as the Ox
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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      Dear Stephen,

      If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
      a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
      well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
      with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


      > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the
      > Battle of
      > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
      >
      > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
      >
      > Stephen
      >
      > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
      >
      >> but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
      >> from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
      >> campaign against Pope?
      >
      >
    • barringer63
      ... David Welker, author of Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of Chantilly wrote that if Lee hadn t been distracted by more important battles like 2nd Manassas
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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        Gerry Mayers wrote:
        >
        > Dear Stephen,
        >
        > If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
        > a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
        > well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
        > with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

        David Welker, author of "Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of
        Chantilly" wrote that if Lee hadn't been distracted by more important
        battles like 2nd Manassas and Antietam, it's very likely Stuart would
        have been brought up on charges of "dereliction of duty" for his
        abysmal performance at Ox Hill. Personally, I'm surprised Jackson
        didn't have Stuart shot.

        Teej
        >
      • richard@rcroker.com
        I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I d ALMOST bet the ranch. ... From: barringer63 To:
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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          I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: barringer63
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


          Stephen Recker wrote:
          >
          > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
          of
          > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

          As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
          crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
          Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
          physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
          well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
          been. :-)

          Teej
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stephen Recker
          Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-) -sjr On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM,
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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            Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

            -sjr

            On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
            wrote:

            > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
            > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
          • richard@rcroker.com
            Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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              Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

              As always, your obdient servant,

              Richard Croker
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Stephen Recker
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


              Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

              -sjr

              On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
              wrote:

              > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
              > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Harry Smeltzer
              It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke - sorry, Steve! ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                sorry, Steve!



                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of richard@...
                Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:01 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In
                fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: barringer63
                To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                Stephen Recker wrote:
                >
                > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                of
                > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                been. :-)

                Teej
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stephen Recker
                ... In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with gladness, and I will work on my material as well. Interesting about that Lincoln
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                  > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                  > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                  > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                  On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                  > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                  > sorry, Steve!

                  In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                  gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                  Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                  after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                  case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                  them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                  Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                  early-September performance?

                  Stephen Recker
                  Historical Humorist
                • Harry Smeltzer
                  Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been interpreted as examples
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
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                    Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much
                    apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been
                    interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic wit can be
                    more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of military
                    realities.

                    Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!

                    Harry



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                    > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                    > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                    > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                    On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                    > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                    > sorry, Steve!

                    In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                    gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                    Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                    after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                    case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                    them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                    Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                    early-September performance?

                    Stephen Recker
                    Historical Humorist





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • G E Mayers
                    Dear Harry, How about both factors at work? What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
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                      Dear Harry,

                      How about both factors at work?

                      What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                      mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                      particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                      distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                      officers.

                      Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                      Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                      > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                      > much
                      > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                      > been
                      > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                      > wit can be
                      > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                      > military
                      > realities.
                      >
                      > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                      >
                      > Harry
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                      > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                      >> paid
                      >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                      >> without
                      >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                      >> accept.
                      >
                      > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                      >> a joke -
                      >> sorry, Steve!
                      >
                      > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                      > words with
                      > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                      >
                      > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                      > sides
                      > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                      > decent
                      > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                      > would cause
                      > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                      > around
                      > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                      > early-September performance?
                      >
                      > Stephen Recker
                      > Historical Humorist
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                    • Harry Smeltzer
                      Well, Gerry, that IS a movie. And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters. I
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
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                        Well, Gerry, that IS a movie.

                        And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West
                        Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters.

                        I think that distrust of amateurs by professionals is prevalent in any
                        profession, be it the military, the law, medicine, accounting, plumbing,
                        welding, you name it.

                        Harry



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of G E Mayers
                        Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:04 AM
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                        Dear Harry,

                        How about both factors at work?

                        What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                        mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                        particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                        distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                        officers.

                        Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                        Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                        > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                        > much
                        > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                        > been
                        > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                        > wit can be
                        > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                        > military
                        > realities.
                        >
                        > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                        >
                        > Harry
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                        > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                        > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                        >> paid
                        >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                        >> without
                        >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                        >> accept.
                        >
                        > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                        >> a joke -
                        >> sorry, Steve!
                        >
                        > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                        > words with
                        > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                        >
                        > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                        > sides
                        > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                        > decent
                        > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                        > would cause
                        > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                        > around
                        > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                        > early-September performance?
                        >
                        > Stephen Recker
                        > Historical Humorist
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >





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