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Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

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  • Stephen Recker
    Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING? (Apologies to A. Lincoln) Stephen
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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      Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of
      Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

      (Apologies to A. Lincoln)

      Stephen

      On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:

      > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
      > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
      > campaign against Pope?
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Now take Wade Hampton--there s a cavalry general! LHF ... of
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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        Now take Wade Hampton--there's a cavalry general!

        LHF

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
        of
        > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
        >
        > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
        >
        > Stephen
        >
        > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
        >
        > > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
        > > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
        > > campaign against Pope?
        >
      • barringer63
        ... of ... As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on Bev
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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          Stephen Recker wrote:
          >
          > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
          of
          > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

          As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
          crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
          Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
          physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
          well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
          been. :-)

          Teej
          >
        • G E Mayers
          Dear Stephen, If you have read Harsh s Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is a discussion there about Stuart s involvement in that campaign as well as the Ox
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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            Dear Stephen,

            If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
            a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
            well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
            with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:01 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


            > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the
            > Battle of
            > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
            >
            > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
            >
            > Stephen
            >
            > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
            >
            >> but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
            >> from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
            >> campaign against Pope?
            >
            >
          • barringer63
            ... David Welker, author of Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of Chantilly wrote that if Lee hadn t been distracted by more important battles like 2nd Manassas
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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              Gerry Mayers wrote:
              >
              > Dear Stephen,
              >
              > If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
              > a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
              > well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
              > with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

              David Welker, author of "Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of
              Chantilly" wrote that if Lee hadn't been distracted by more important
              battles like 2nd Manassas and Antietam, it's very likely Stuart would
              have been brought up on charges of "dereliction of duty" for his
              abysmal performance at Ox Hill. Personally, I'm surprised Jackson
              didn't have Stuart shot.

              Teej
              >
            • richard@rcroker.com
              I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I d ALMOST bet the ranch. ... From: barringer63 To:
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: barringer63
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                Stephen Recker wrote:
                >
                > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                of
                > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                been. :-)

                Teej
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stephen Recker
                Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-) -sjr On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM,
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                  Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                  -sjr

                  On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                  wrote:

                  > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                  > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                • richard@rcroker.com
                  Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                    Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                    As always, your obdient servant,

                    Richard Croker
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Stephen Recker
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:24 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                    Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                    -sjr

                    On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                    wrote:

                    > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                    > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Harry Smeltzer
                    It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke - sorry, Steve! ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                      It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                      sorry, Steve!



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of richard@...
                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:01 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                      I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In
                      fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: barringer63
                      To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                      Stephen Recker wrote:
                      >
                      > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                      of
                      > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                      As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                      crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                      Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                      physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                      well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                      been. :-)

                      Teej
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Stephen Recker
                      ... In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with gladness, and I will work on my material as well. Interesting about that Lincoln
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                        > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                        > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                        > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                        On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                        > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                        > sorry, Steve!

                        In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                        gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                        Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                        after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                        case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                        them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                        Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                        early-September performance?

                        Stephen Recker
                        Historical Humorist
                      • Harry Smeltzer
                        Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been interpreted as examples
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
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                          Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much
                          apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been
                          interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic wit can be
                          more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of military
                          realities.

                          Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!

                          Harry



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                          > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                          > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                          > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                          On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                          > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                          > sorry, Steve!

                          In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                          gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                          Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                          after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                          case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                          them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                          Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                          early-September performance?

                          Stephen Recker
                          Historical Humorist





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • G E Mayers
                          Dear Harry, How about both factors at work? What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
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                            Dear Harry,

                            How about both factors at work?

                            What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                            mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                            particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                            distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                            officers.

                            Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                            Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                            > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                            > much
                            > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                            > been
                            > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                            > wit can be
                            > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                            > military
                            > realities.
                            >
                            > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                            >
                            > Harry
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                            > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                            >> paid
                            >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                            >> without
                            >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                            >> accept.
                            >
                            > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                            >> a joke -
                            >> sorry, Steve!
                            >
                            > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                            > words with
                            > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                            >
                            > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                            > sides
                            > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                            > decent
                            > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                            > would cause
                            > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                            > around
                            > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                            > early-September performance?
                            >
                            > Stephen Recker
                            > Historical Humorist
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                          • Harry Smeltzer
                            Well, Gerry, that IS a movie. And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters. I
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
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                              Well, Gerry, that IS a movie.

                              And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West
                              Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters.

                              I think that distrust of amateurs by professionals is prevalent in any
                              profession, be it the military, the law, medicine, accounting, plumbing,
                              welding, you name it.

                              Harry



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of G E Mayers
                              Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:04 AM
                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                              Dear Harry,

                              How about both factors at work?

                              What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                              mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                              particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                              distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                              officers.

                              Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                              Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                              > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                              > much
                              > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                              > been
                              > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                              > wit can be
                              > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                              > military
                              > realities.
                              >
                              > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                              >
                              > Harry
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                              > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                              > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                              >> paid
                              >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                              >> without
                              >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                              >> accept.
                              >
                              > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                              >> a joke -
                              >> sorry, Steve!
                              >
                              > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                              > words with
                              > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                              >
                              > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                              > sides
                              > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                              > decent
                              > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                              > would cause
                              > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                              > around
                              > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                              > early-September performance?
                              >
                              > Stephen Recker
                              > Historical Humorist
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >





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