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Re: CWDG

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  • barringer63
    ... difference. ... Not for the same reason as yours, of course, but it may surprise you to know that H.B. McClellan agreed with you somewhat. He wrote that
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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      Harry Smeltzer wrote:
      >
      > Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don't see how Stuart's
      > presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a
      difference.
      >
      > Seriously.

      Not for the same reason as yours, of course, but it may surprise you
      to know that H.B. McClellan agreed with you somewhat. He wrote that
      even if Stuart had been able to communicate with Lee after the 30th, it
      was doubtful that it would have made any difference in the outcome of
      the battle of Gettysburg.

      Teej
    • Stephen Recker
      Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING? (Apologies to A. Lincoln) Stephen
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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        Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of
        Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

        (Apologies to A. Lincoln)

        Stephen

        On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:

        > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
        > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
        > campaign against Pope?
      • eighth_conn_inf
        Now take Wade Hampton--there s a cavalry general! LHF ... of
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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          Now take Wade Hampton--there's a cavalry general!

          LHF

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
          of
          > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
          >
          > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
          >
          > Stephen
          >
          > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
          >
          > > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
          > > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
          > > campaign against Pope?
          >
        • barringer63
          ... of ... As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on Bev
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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            Stephen Recker wrote:
            >
            > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
            of
            > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

            As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
            crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
            Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
            physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
            well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
            been. :-)

            Teej
            >
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Stephen, If you have read Harsh s Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is a discussion there about Stuart s involvement in that campaign as well as the Ox
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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              Dear Stephen,

              If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
              a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
              well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
              with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


              > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the
              > Battle of
              > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
              >
              > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
              >
              > Stephen
              >
              > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
              >
              >> but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
              >> from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
              >> campaign against Pope?
              >
              >
            • barringer63
              ... David Welker, author of Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of Chantilly wrote that if Lee hadn t been distracted by more important battles like 2nd Manassas
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                Gerry Mayers wrote:
                >
                > Dear Stephen,
                >
                > If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
                > a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
                > well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
                > with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

                David Welker, author of "Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of
                Chantilly" wrote that if Lee hadn't been distracted by more important
                battles like 2nd Manassas and Antietam, it's very likely Stuart would
                have been brought up on charges of "dereliction of duty" for his
                abysmal performance at Ox Hill. Personally, I'm surprised Jackson
                didn't have Stuart shot.

                Teej
                >
              • richard@rcroker.com
                I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I d ALMOST bet the ranch. ... From: barringer63 To:
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                  I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: barringer63
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                  Stephen Recker wrote:
                  >
                  > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                  of
                  > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                  As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                  crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                  Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                  physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                  well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                  been. :-)

                  Teej
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Stephen Recker
                  Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-) -sjr On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM,
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                    Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                    -sjr

                    On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                    wrote:

                    > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                    > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                  • richard@rcroker.com
                    Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                      Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                      As always, your obdient servant,

                      Richard Croker
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Stephen Recker
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:24 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                      Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                      -sjr

                      On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                      wrote:

                      > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                      > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Harry Smeltzer
                      It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke - sorry, Steve! ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                        It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                        sorry, Steve!



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of richard@...
                        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:01 PM
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                        I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In
                        fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: barringer63
                        To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                        Stephen Recker wrote:
                        >
                        > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                        of
                        > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                        As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                        crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                        Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                        physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                        well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                        been. :-)

                        Teej
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Stephen Recker
                        ... In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with gladness, and I will work on my material as well. Interesting about that Lincoln
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                          > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                          > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                          > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                          On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                          > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                          > sorry, Steve!

                          In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                          gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                          Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                          after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                          case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                          them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                          Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                          early-September performance?

                          Stephen Recker
                          Historical Humorist
                        • Harry Smeltzer
                          Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been interpreted as examples
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
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                            Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much
                            apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been
                            interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic wit can be
                            more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of military
                            realities.

                            Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!

                            Harry



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                            > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                            > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                            > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                            On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                            > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                            > sorry, Steve!

                            In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                            gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                            Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                            after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                            case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                            them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                            Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                            early-September performance?

                            Stephen Recker
                            Historical Humorist





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • G E Mayers
                            Dear Harry, How about both factors at work? What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
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                              Dear Harry,

                              How about both factors at work?

                              What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                              mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                              particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                              distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                              officers.

                              Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                              Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                              > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                              > much
                              > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                              > been
                              > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                              > wit can be
                              > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                              > military
                              > realities.
                              >
                              > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                              >
                              > Harry
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                              > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                              >> paid
                              >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                              >> without
                              >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                              >> accept.
                              >
                              > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                              >> a joke -
                              >> sorry, Steve!
                              >
                              > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                              > words with
                              > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                              >
                              > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                              > sides
                              > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                              > decent
                              > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                              > would cause
                              > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                              > around
                              > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                              > early-September performance?
                              >
                              > Stephen Recker
                              > Historical Humorist
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                            • Harry Smeltzer
                              Well, Gerry, that IS a movie. And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters. I
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
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                                Well, Gerry, that IS a movie.

                                And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West
                                Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters.

                                I think that distrust of amateurs by professionals is prevalent in any
                                profession, be it the military, the law, medicine, accounting, plumbing,
                                welding, you name it.

                                Harry



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of G E Mayers
                                Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:04 AM
                                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                Dear Harry,

                                How about both factors at work?

                                What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                                mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                                distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                                officers.

                                Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                                Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
                                To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                                Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                                > much
                                > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                                > been
                                > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                                > wit can be
                                > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                                > military
                                > realities.
                                >
                                > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                                >
                                > Harry
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                                >> paid
                                >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                                >> without
                                >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                                >> accept.
                                >
                                > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                                >> a joke -
                                >> sorry, Steve!
                                >
                                > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                                > words with
                                > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                                >
                                > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                                > sides
                                > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                                > decent
                                > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                                > would cause
                                > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                                > around
                                > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                > early-September performance?
                                >
                                > Stephen Recker
                                > Historical Humorist
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >





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