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Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Harry; Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland Campaign. However, it
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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      Dear Harry;

      Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
      campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
      Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
      spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
      after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
      Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
      Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

      IIRC this was 1859...which is why he was available to assist with
      the John Brown expedition commanded by none other than Marse
      Robt.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:17 AM
      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


      > Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it
      > was a "fun"
      > hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or
      > dining.
      >
      > Harry
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of G E Mayers
      > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:14 AM
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
      >
      >
      >
      > Dear Harry and Larry,
      >
      > Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
      > footnotes also would be valuable.
      >
      > I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
      > moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
      > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
      > campaign against Pope?
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      > from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast.
      > <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
      > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
      >
      >> Larry,
      >>
      >> No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
      >> so much a
      >> product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
      >> of points
      >> Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
      >> built an overt
      >> case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak
      >> for
      >> itself. You
      >> have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
      >> everything
      >> together.
      >>
      >> Harry
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> -----Original Message-----
      >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com
      >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com] On
      >> Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      >> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
      >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> yahoogroups.com
      >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Harry,
      >>
      >> Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
      >> looks
      >> like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
      >> have
      >> some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
      >> this
      >> website.
      >>
      >> Larry F.
      >>
      >> RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
      >>
      >> Larry,
      >>
      >> Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
      >> discussion.
      >> Try this:
      >>
      >> Click
      >> <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.
      > <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?>
      >> org/modules.php?
      >> name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
      >> file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
      >>
      >> If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you
      >> earlier.once
      >> you
      >> get to
      >> the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
      >> look for
      >> Stuart
      >> in the Maryland Campaign thread.
      >>
      >> Harry
      >>
      >> -----Original Message-----
      >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> yahoogroups.com
      >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> yahoogroups.com] On
      >> Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
      >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
      >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> yahoogroups.com
      >> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
      >> Heights
      >>
      >> I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
      >> says,
      >> with
      >> the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
      >> Lee was
      >> unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement
      >> of
      >> the
      >> AotP
      >> prior to the implementation, and that information should have
      >> been
      >> provided
      >> him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart
      >> advised
      >> Lee
      >> that
      >> he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
      >> and
      >> the next
      >> day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
      >>
      >> Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
      >> this
      >> discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
      >> work
      >> out
      >> again:
      >>
      >> Harry
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • barringer63
      ... Stuart s temperance was a product of his mother insisting that all of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently, Stuart s father, Archibald
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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        Gerry Mayers wrote:
        >
        > Dear Harry;
        >
        > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
        > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
        > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
        > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
        > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
        > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
        > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

        Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that all
        of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently, Stuart's
        father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a little
        too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up like
        her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory and
        Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
        interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed in
        the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her church. In
        1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
        referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't a
        member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as you
        stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
        stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on his way
        to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he sold
        to the War Dept for $5000.
        >
        > Teej
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Teej; I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to the Episcopal Church. BTW
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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          Dear Teej;

          I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
          apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
          the Episcopal Church.

          BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
          congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
          as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


          Gerry Mayers wrote:
          >
          > Dear Harry;
          >
          > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
          > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
          > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
          > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
          > fully
          > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
          > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
          > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

          Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
          all
          of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
          Stuart's
          father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
          little
          too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
          like
          her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
          and
          Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
          interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
          in
          the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
          church. In
          1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
          referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
          a
          member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
          you
          stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
          stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
          his way
          to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
          sold
          to the War Dept for $5000.
          >
          > Teej
        • eighth_conn_inf
          All, From what I ve read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything showing that he was
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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            All,

            From what I've read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as
            having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything
            showing that he was exhausted or sick during the Maryland Campaign--
            if anyone has some references showing this, pls let me know. As Harry
            points out, the famous Urbana Ball which lasted until dawn and
            included a mid-dance skirmish with some pesky Union Cavalry was well
            within Stuart's and apparently many of his staff's limits. He did
            have a light day after that ball, however.

            I enjoyed reading all three of Harsh's books; it is unfortunate that
            it is unlikely that he will complete his Maryland Campaign study from
            the Union perspective.

            Larry F.

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear Teej;
            >
            > I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
            > apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
            > the Episcopal Church.
            >
            > BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
            > congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
            > as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
            >
            >
            > Gerry Mayers wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear Harry;
            > >
            > > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
            > > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
            > > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
            > > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
            > > fully
            > > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
            > > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
            > > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....
            >
            > Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
            > all
            > of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
            > Stuart's
            > father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
            > little
            > too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
            > like
            > her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
            > and
            > Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
            > interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
            > in
            > the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
            > church. In
            > 1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
            > referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
            > a
            > member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
            > you
            > stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
            > stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
            > his way
            > to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
            > sold
            > to the War Dept for $5000.
            > >
            > > Teej
            >
          • Harry Smeltzer
            Don t mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren t invited. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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              Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
              invited.



              -----Original Message-----
              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:09 PM
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



              All,

              From what I've read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as
              having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything
              showing that he was exhausted or sick during the Maryland Campaign--
              if anyone has some references showing this, pls let me know. As Harry
              points out, the famous Urbana Ball which lasted until dawn and
              included a mid-dance skirmish with some pesky Union Cavalry was well
              within Stuart's and apparently many of his staff's limits. He did
              have a light day after that ball, however.

              I enjoyed reading all three of Harsh's books; it is unfortunate that
              it is unlikely that he will complete his Maryland Campaign study from
              the Union perspective.

              Larry F.

              --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Dear Teej;
              >
              > I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
              > apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
              > the Episcopal Church.
              >
              > BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
              > congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
              > as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....
              >
              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
              >
              >
              > Gerry Mayers wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear Harry;
              > >
              > > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
              > > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
              > > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
              > > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
              > > fully
              > > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
              > > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
              > > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....
              >
              > Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
              > all
              > of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
              > Stuart's
              > father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
              > little
              > too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
              > like
              > her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
              > and
              > Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
              > interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
              > in
              > the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
              > church. In
              > 1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
              > referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
              > a
              > member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
              > you
              > stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
              > stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
              > his way
              > to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
              > sold
              > to the War Dept for $5000.
              > >
              > > Teej
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • barringer63
              ... They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by the time Stuart
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                >
                > Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
                > invited.

                They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his
                fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by
                the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was about,
                Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry. Once
                Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y. Reb and
                Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as a "thank
                you" cup of punch.

                Teej
                >
              • Harry Smeltzer
                See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball around Teej? Do you see what happens, Larry? Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball around Teej?
                  Do you see what happens, Larry?

                  Harry



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of barringer63
                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:57 PM
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                  Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                  >
                  > Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
                  > invited.

                  They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his
                  fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by
                  the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was about,
                  Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry. Once
                  Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y. Reb and
                  Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as a "thank
                  you" cup of punch.

                  Teej
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • G E Mayers
                  Harry; LOL. Teej took it well..but she did point out something important..... It was the TarHeels who drove the pesky Yankees away, NOT Stuart & Co. Yr. Obt.
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                    Harry;

                    LOL. Teej took it well..but she did point out something
                    important.....

                    It was the TarHeels who drove the pesky Yankees away, NOT Stuart
                    & Co.

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:59 PM
                    Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                    > See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball
                    > around Teej?
                    > Do you see what happens, Larry?
                    >
                    > Harry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > Behalf Of barringer63
                    > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:57 PM
                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels
                    >> weren't
                    >> invited.
                    >
                    > They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and
                    > his
                    > fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the
                    > ball, by
                    > the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was
                    > about,
                    > Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry.
                    > Once
                    > Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y.
                    > Reb and
                    > Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as
                    > a "thank
                    > you" cup of punch.
                    >
                    > Teej
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • richard@rcroker.com
                    And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel? I m just kidding guys!!
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel?

                      I'm just kidding guys!! Don't shoot me!

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: G E Mayers
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:31 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                      Dear Teej;

                      I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                      apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                      the Episcopal Church.

                      BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                      congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                      as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                      Gerry Mayers wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Harry;
                      >
                      > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                      > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                      > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                      > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                      > fully
                      > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                      > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                      > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                      Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                      all
                      of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                      Stuart's
                      father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                      little
                      too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                      like
                      her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                      and
                      Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                      interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                      in
                      the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                      church. In
                      1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                      referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                      a
                      member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                      you
                      stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                      stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                      his way
                      to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                      sold
                      to the War Dept for $5000.
                      >
                      > Teej





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • richard@rcroker.com
                      We must all remember that both sides had professional propoganda machines that would make today s spin rooms blush. I for one don t buy into the tee totaling,
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                        We must all remember that both sides had professional propoganda machines that would make today's spin rooms blush. I for one don't buy into the tee totaling, tobacco free and forever faithful JEB Stuart. It just doesn't match his personality. Okay -- THIS time you can shoot me. Have fun


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: G E Mayers
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:27 AM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


                        Dear Harry;

                        Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                        campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                        Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                        spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
                        after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                        Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                        Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                        IIRC this was 1859...which is why he was available to assist with
                        the John Brown expedition commanded by none other than Marse
                        Robt.

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:17 AM
                        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

                        > Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it
                        > was a "fun"
                        > hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or
                        > dining.
                        >
                        > Harry
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of G E Mayers
                        > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:14 AM
                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear Harry and Larry,
                        >
                        > Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
                        > footnotes also would be valuable.
                        >
                        > I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
                        > moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                        > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                        > campaign against Pope?
                        >
                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                        > from
                        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast.
                        > <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
                        > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                        >
                        >> Larry,
                        >>
                        >> No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
                        >> so much a
                        >> product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
                        >> of points
                        >> Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
                        >> built an overt
                        >> case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak
                        >> for
                        >> itself. You
                        >> have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
                        >> everything
                        >> together.
                        >>
                        >> Harry
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> -----Original Message-----
                        >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com
                        >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com] On
                        >> Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        >> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
                        >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >> yahoogroups.com
                        >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Harry,
                        >>
                        >> Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
                        >> looks
                        >> like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
                        >> have
                        >> some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
                        >> this
                        >> website.
                        >>
                        >> Larry F.
                        >>
                        >> RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        >>
                        >> Larry,
                        >>
                        >> Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
                        >> discussion.
                        >> Try this:
                        >>
                        >> Click
                        >> <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.
                        > <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?>
                        >> org/modules.php?
                        >> name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                        >> file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
                        >>
                        >> If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you
                        >> earlier.once
                        >> you
                        >> get to
                        >> the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
                        >> look for
                        >> Stuart
                        >> in the Maryland Campaign thread.
                        >>
                        >> Harry
                        >>
                        >> -----Original Message-----
                        >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >> yahoogroups.com
                        >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >> yahoogroups.com] On
                        >> Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                        >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                        >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >> yahoogroups.com
                        >> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
                        >> Heights
                        >>
                        >> I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
                        >> says,
                        >> with
                        >> the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
                        >> Lee was
                        >> unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement
                        >> of
                        >> the
                        >> AotP
                        >> prior to the implementation, and that information should have
                        >> been
                        >> provided
                        >> him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart
                        >> advised
                        >> Lee
                        >> that
                        >> he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
                        >> and
                        >> the next
                        >> day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
                        >>
                        >> Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
                        >> this
                        >> discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
                        >> work
                        >> out
                        >> again:
                        >>
                        >> Harry
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Harry Smeltzer
                        Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don t see how Stuart s presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a difference. Seriously.
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                          Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don't see how Stuart's
                          presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a difference.

                          Seriously.

                          Harry



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of richard@...
                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 2:39 PM
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                          And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an
                          excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel?

                          I'm just kidding guys!! Don't shoot me!

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: G E Mayers
                          To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:31 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                          Dear Teej;

                          I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                          apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                          the Episcopal Church.

                          BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                          congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                          as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "barringer63" <teej@... <mailto:teej%40nc.rr.com> >
                          To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                          Gerry Mayers wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Harry;
                          >
                          > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                          > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                          > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                          > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                          > fully
                          > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                          > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                          > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                          Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                          all
                          of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                          Stuart's
                          father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                          little
                          too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                          like
                          her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                          and
                          Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                          interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                          in
                          the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                          church. In
                          1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                          referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                          a
                          member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                          you
                          stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                          stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                          his way
                          to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                          sold
                          to the War Dept for $5000.
                          >
                          > Teej

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • barringer63
                          ... difference. ... Not for the same reason as yours, of course, but it may surprise you to know that H.B. McClellan agreed with you somewhat. He wrote that
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                            Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                            >
                            > Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don't see how Stuart's
                            > presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a
                            difference.
                            >
                            > Seriously.

                            Not for the same reason as yours, of course, but it may surprise you
                            to know that H.B. McClellan agreed with you somewhat. He wrote that
                            even if Stuart had been able to communicate with Lee after the 30th, it
                            was doubtful that it would have made any difference in the outcome of
                            the battle of Gettysburg.

                            Teej
                          • Stephen Recker
                            Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING? (Apologies to A. Lincoln) Stephen
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                              Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of
                              Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                              (Apologies to A. Lincoln)

                              Stephen

                              On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:

                              > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                              > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                              > campaign against Pope?
                            • eighth_conn_inf
                              Now take Wade Hampton--there s a cavalry general! LHF ... of
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                Now take Wade Hampton--there's a cavalry general!

                                LHF

                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                of
                                > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
                                >
                                > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
                                >
                                > Stephen
                                >
                                > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                >
                                > > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                > > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                > > campaign against Pope?
                                >
                              • barringer63
                                ... of ... As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on Bev
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                  Stephen Recker wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                  of
                                  > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                  As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                  crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                  Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                  physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                  well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                  been. :-)

                                  Teej
                                  >
                                • G E Mayers
                                  Dear Stephen, If you have read Harsh s Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is a discussion there about Stuart s involvement in that campaign as well as the Ox
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                    Dear Stephen,

                                    If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
                                    a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
                                    well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
                                    with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

                                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:01 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


                                    > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the
                                    > Battle of
                                    > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
                                    >
                                    > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
                                    >
                                    > Stephen
                                    >
                                    > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                    >> from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                    >> campaign against Pope?
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • barringer63
                                    ... David Welker, author of Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of Chantilly wrote that if Lee hadn t been distracted by more important battles like 2nd Manassas
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                      Gerry Mayers wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Stephen,
                                      >
                                      > If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
                                      > a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
                                      > well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
                                      > with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

                                      David Welker, author of "Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of
                                      Chantilly" wrote that if Lee hadn't been distracted by more important
                                      battles like 2nd Manassas and Antietam, it's very likely Stuart would
                                      have been brought up on charges of "dereliction of duty" for his
                                      abysmal performance at Ox Hill. Personally, I'm surprised Jackson
                                      didn't have Stuart shot.

                                      Teej
                                      >
                                    • richard@rcroker.com
                                      I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I d ALMOST bet the ranch. ... From: barringer63 To:
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                        I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: barringer63
                                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                        Stephen Recker wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                        of
                                        > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                        As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                        crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                        Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                        physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                        well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                        been. :-)

                                        Teej
                                        >





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Stephen Recker
                                        Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-) -sjr On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM,
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                          Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                                          -sjr

                                          On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                                          wrote:

                                          > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                                          > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                        • richard@rcroker.com
                                          Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                            Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                            As always, your obdient servant,

                                            Richard Croker
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: Stephen Recker
                                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:24 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                            Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                                            -sjr

                                            On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                                            wrote:

                                            > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                                            > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Harry Smeltzer
                                            It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke - sorry, Steve! ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                              It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                              sorry, Steve!



                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                              Behalf Of richard@...
                                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:01 PM
                                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                              I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In
                                              fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: barringer63
                                              To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                              Stephen Recker wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                              of
                                              > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                              As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                              crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                              Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                              physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                              well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                              been. :-)

                                              Teej
                                              >

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Stephen Recker
                                              ... In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with gladness, and I will work on my material as well. Interesting about that Lincoln
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                                > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                                                > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                                                > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                                On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                                                > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                                > sorry, Steve!

                                                In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                                                gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                                                Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                                                after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                                                case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                                                them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                                                Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                early-September performance?

                                                Stephen Recker
                                                Historical Humorist
                                              • Harry Smeltzer
                                                Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been interpreted as examples
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much
                                                  apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been
                                                  interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic wit can be
                                                  more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of military
                                                  realities.

                                                  Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!

                                                  Harry



                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                  Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                                  > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                                                  > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                                                  > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                                  On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                                                  > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                                  > sorry, Steve!

                                                  In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                                                  gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                                                  Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                                                  after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                                                  case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                                                  them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                                                  Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                  early-September performance?

                                                  Stephen Recker
                                                  Historical Humorist





                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • G E Mayers
                                                  Dear Harry, How about both factors at work? What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Dear Harry,

                                                    How about both factors at work?

                                                    What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                                                    mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                    particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                                                    distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                                                    officers.

                                                    Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                                                    Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                                                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                                                    Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                                    > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                                                    > much
                                                    > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                                                    > been
                                                    > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                                                    > wit can be
                                                    > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                                                    > military
                                                    > realities.
                                                    >
                                                    > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                                                    >
                                                    > Harry
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                    > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                    > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                                                    >> paid
                                                    >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                                                    >> without
                                                    >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                                                    >> accept.
                                                    >
                                                    > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                                                    > wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                                                    >> a joke -
                                                    >> sorry, Steve!
                                                    >
                                                    > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                                                    > words with
                                                    > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                                                    >
                                                    > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                                                    > sides
                                                    > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                                                    > decent
                                                    > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                                                    > would cause
                                                    > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                                                    > around
                                                    > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                    > early-September performance?
                                                    >
                                                    > Stephen Recker
                                                    > Historical Humorist
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • Harry Smeltzer
                                                    Well, Gerry, that IS a movie. And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters. I
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Well, Gerry, that IS a movie.

                                                      And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West
                                                      Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters.

                                                      I think that distrust of amateurs by professionals is prevalent in any
                                                      profession, be it the military, the law, medicine, accounting, plumbing,
                                                      welding, you name it.

                                                      Harry



                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                      Behalf Of G E Mayers
                                                      Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:04 AM
                                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                                      Dear Harry,

                                                      How about both factors at work?

                                                      What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                                                      mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                      particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                                                      distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                                                      officers.

                                                      Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                                                      Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                                                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
                                                      To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                                                      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                                      > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                                                      > much
                                                      > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                                                      > been
                                                      > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                                                      > wit can be
                                                      > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                                                      > military
                                                      > realities.
                                                      >
                                                      > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                                                      >
                                                      > Harry
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                      > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      yahoogroups.com
                                                      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      yahoogroups.com] On
                                                      > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                      > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                      > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                                                      >> paid
                                                      >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                                                      >> without
                                                      >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                                                      >> accept.
                                                      >
                                                      > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                                                      > wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                                                      >> a joke -
                                                      >> sorry, Steve!
                                                      >
                                                      > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                                                      > words with
                                                      > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                                                      >
                                                      > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                                                      > sides
                                                      > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                                                      > decent
                                                      > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                                                      > would cause
                                                      > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                                                      > around
                                                      > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                      > early-September performance?
                                                      >
                                                      > Stephen Recker
                                                      > Historical Humorist
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >
                                                      >





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