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Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Harry and Larry, Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh s footnotes also would be valuable. I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
      Dear Harry and Larry,

      Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
      footnotes also would be valuable.

      I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
      moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
      from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
      campaign against Pope?

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


      > Larry,
      >
      > No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
      > so much a
      > product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
      > of points
      > Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
      > built an overt
      > case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak for
      > itself. You
      > have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
      > everything
      > together.
      >
      > Harry
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
      >
      >
      >
      > Harry,
      >
      > Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
      > looks
      > like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
      > have
      > some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
      > this
      > website.
      >
      > Larry F.
      >
      > RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
      >
      > Larry,
      >
      > Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
      > discussion.
      > Try this:
      >
      > Click
      > <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?>
      > org/modules.php?
      > name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
      > file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
      >
      > If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once
      > you
      > get to
      > the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
      > look for
      > Stuart
      > in the Maryland Campaign thread.
      >
      > Harry
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
      > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
      > Heights
      >
      > I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
      > says,
      > with
      > the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
      > Lee was
      > unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of
      > the
      > AotP
      > prior to the implementation, and that information should have
      > been
      > provided
      > him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised
      > Lee
      > that
      > he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
      > and
      > the next
      > day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
      >
      > Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
      > this
      > discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
      > work
      > out
      > again:
      >
      > Harry
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • Harry Smeltzer
      Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it was a fun hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or dining. Harry ...
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
        Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it was a "fun"
        hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or dining.

        Harry



        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of G E Mayers
        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:14 AM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG



        Dear Harry and Larry,

        Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
        footnotes also would be valuable.

        I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
        moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
        from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
        campaign against Pope?

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
        To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

        > Larry,
        >
        > No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
        > so much a
        > product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
        > of points
        > Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
        > built an overt
        > case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak for
        > itself. You
        > have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
        > everything
        > together.
        >
        > Harry
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
        > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
        >
        >
        >
        > Harry,
        >
        > Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
        > looks
        > like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
        > have
        > some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
        > this
        > website.
        >
        > Larry F.
        >
        > RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
        >
        > Larry,
        >
        > Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
        > discussion.
        > Try this:
        >
        > Click
        > <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.
        <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?>
        > org/modules.php?
        > name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
        > file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
        >
        > If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once
        > you
        > get to
        > the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
        > look for
        > Stuart
        > in the Maryland Campaign thread.
        >
        > Harry
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
        > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
        > Heights
        >
        > I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
        > says,
        > with
        > the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
        > Lee was
        > unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of
        > the
        > AotP
        > prior to the implementation, and that information should have
        > been
        > provided
        > him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised
        > Lee
        > that
        > he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
        > and
        > the next
        > day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
        >
        > Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
        > this
        > discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
        > work
        > out
        > again:
        >
        > Harry
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Harry; Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland Campaign. However, it
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
          Dear Harry;

          Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
          campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
          Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
          spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
          after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
          Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
          Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

          IIRC this was 1859...which is why he was available to assist with
          the John Brown expedition commanded by none other than Marse
          Robt.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:17 AM
          Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


          > Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it
          > was a "fun"
          > hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or
          > dining.
          >
          > Harry
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of G E Mayers
          > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:14 AM
          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Harry and Larry,
          >
          > Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
          > footnotes also would be valuable.
          >
          > I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
          > moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
          > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
          > campaign against Pope?
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
          > from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast.
          > <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
          > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
          > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
          >
          >> Larry,
          >>
          >> No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
          >> so much a
          >> product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
          >> of points
          >> Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
          >> built an overt
          >> case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak
          >> for
          >> itself. You
          >> have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
          >> everything
          >> together.
          >>
          >> Harry
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> -----Original Message-----
          >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com
          >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com] On
          >> Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          >> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
          >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          >> yahoogroups.com
          >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Harry,
          >>
          >> Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
          >> looks
          >> like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
          >> have
          >> some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
          >> this
          >> website.
          >>
          >> Larry F.
          >>
          >> RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          >>
          >> Larry,
          >>
          >> Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
          >> discussion.
          >> Try this:
          >>
          >> Click
          >> <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.
          > <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?>
          >> org/modules.php?
          >> name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
          >> file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
          >>
          >> If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you
          >> earlier.once
          >> you
          >> get to
          >> the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
          >> look for
          >> Stuart
          >> in the Maryland Campaign thread.
          >>
          >> Harry
          >>
          >> -----Original Message-----
          >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          >> yahoogroups.com
          >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          >> yahoogroups.com] On
          >> Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
          >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
          >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          >> yahoogroups.com
          >> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
          >> Heights
          >>
          >> I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
          >> says,
          >> with
          >> the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
          >> Lee was
          >> unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement
          >> of
          >> the
          >> AotP
          >> prior to the implementation, and that information should have
          >> been
          >> provided
          >> him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart
          >> advised
          >> Lee
          >> that
          >> he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
          >> and
          >> the next
          >> day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
          >>
          >> Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
          >> this
          >> discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
          >> work
          >> out
          >> again:
          >>
          >> Harry
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • barringer63
          ... Stuart s temperance was a product of his mother insisting that all of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently, Stuart s father, Archibald
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
            Gerry Mayers wrote:
            >
            > Dear Harry;
            >
            > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
            > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
            > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
            > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
            > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
            > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
            > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

            Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that all
            of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently, Stuart's
            father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a little
            too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up like
            her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory and
            Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
            interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed in
            the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her church. In
            1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
            referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't a
            member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as you
            stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
            stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on his way
            to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he sold
            to the War Dept for $5000.
            >
            > Teej
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Teej; I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to the Episcopal Church. BTW
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
              Dear Teej;

              I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
              apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
              the Episcopal Church.

              BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
              congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
              as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


              Gerry Mayers wrote:
              >
              > Dear Harry;
              >
              > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
              > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
              > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
              > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
              > fully
              > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
              > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
              > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

              Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
              all
              of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
              Stuart's
              father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
              little
              too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
              like
              her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
              and
              Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
              interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
              in
              the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
              church. In
              1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
              referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
              a
              member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
              you
              stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
              stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
              his way
              to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
              sold
              to the War Dept for $5000.
              >
              > Teej
            • eighth_conn_inf
              All, From what I ve read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything showing that he was
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                All,

                From what I've read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as
                having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything
                showing that he was exhausted or sick during the Maryland Campaign--
                if anyone has some references showing this, pls let me know. As Harry
                points out, the famous Urbana Ball which lasted until dawn and
                included a mid-dance skirmish with some pesky Union Cavalry was well
                within Stuart's and apparently many of his staff's limits. He did
                have a light day after that ball, however.

                I enjoyed reading all three of Harsh's books; it is unfortunate that
                it is unlikely that he will complete his Maryland Campaign study from
                the Union perspective.

                Larry F.

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Dear Teej;
                >
                > I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                > apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                > the Episcopal Church.
                >
                > BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                > congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                > as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                >
                >
                > Gerry Mayers wrote:
                > >
                > > Dear Harry;
                > >
                > > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                > > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                > > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                > > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                > > fully
                > > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                > > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                > > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....
                >
                > Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                > all
                > of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                > Stuart's
                > father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                > little
                > too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                > like
                > her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                > and
                > Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                > interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                > in
                > the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                > church. In
                > 1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                > referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                > a
                > member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                > you
                > stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                > stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                > his way
                > to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                > sold
                > to the War Dept for $5000.
                > >
                > > Teej
                >
              • Harry Smeltzer
                Don t mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren t invited. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                  Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
                  invited.



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:09 PM
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                  All,

                  From what I've read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as
                  having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything
                  showing that he was exhausted or sick during the Maryland Campaign--
                  if anyone has some references showing this, pls let me know. As Harry
                  points out, the famous Urbana Ball which lasted until dawn and
                  included a mid-dance skirmish with some pesky Union Cavalry was well
                  within Stuart's and apparently many of his staff's limits. He did
                  have a light day after that ball, however.

                  I enjoyed reading all three of Harsh's books; it is unfortunate that
                  it is unlikely that he will complete his Maryland Campaign study from
                  the Union perspective.

                  Larry F.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Teej;
                  >
                  > I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                  > apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                  > the Episcopal Church.
                  >
                  > BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                  > congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                  > as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                  >
                  >
                  > Gerry Mayers wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dear Harry;
                  > >
                  > > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                  > > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                  > > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                  > > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                  > > fully
                  > > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                  > > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                  > > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....
                  >
                  > Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                  > all
                  > of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                  > Stuart's
                  > father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                  > little
                  > too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                  > like
                  > her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                  > and
                  > Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                  > interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                  > in
                  > the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                  > church. In
                  > 1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                  > referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                  > a
                  > member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                  > you
                  > stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                  > stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                  > his way
                  > to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                  > sold
                  > to the War Dept for $5000.
                  > >
                  > > Teej
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • barringer63
                  ... They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by the time Stuart
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                    Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                    >
                    > Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
                    > invited.

                    They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his
                    fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by
                    the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was about,
                    Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry. Once
                    Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y. Reb and
                    Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as a "thank
                    you" cup of punch.

                    Teej
                    >
                  • Harry Smeltzer
                    See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball around Teej? Do you see what happens, Larry? Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                      See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball around Teej?
                      Do you see what happens, Larry?

                      Harry



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of barringer63
                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:57 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                      Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                      >
                      > Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
                      > invited.

                      They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his
                      fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by
                      the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was about,
                      Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry. Once
                      Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y. Reb and
                      Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as a "thank
                      you" cup of punch.

                      Teej
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • G E Mayers
                      Harry; LOL. Teej took it well..but she did point out something important..... It was the TarHeels who drove the pesky Yankees away, NOT Stuart & Co. Yr. Obt.
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                        Harry;

                        LOL. Teej took it well..but she did point out something
                        important.....

                        It was the TarHeels who drove the pesky Yankees away, NOT Stuart
                        & Co.

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:59 PM
                        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                        > See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball
                        > around Teej?
                        > Do you see what happens, Larry?
                        >
                        > Harry
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of barringer63
                        > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:57 PM
                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                        >>
                        >> Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels
                        >> weren't
                        >> invited.
                        >
                        > They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and
                        > his
                        > fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the
                        > ball, by
                        > the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was
                        > about,
                        > Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry.
                        > Once
                        > Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y.
                        > Reb and
                        > Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as
                        > a "thank
                        > you" cup of punch.
                        >
                        > Teej
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                      • richard@rcroker.com
                        And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel? I m just kidding guys!!
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                          And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel?

                          I'm just kidding guys!! Don't shoot me!

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: G E Mayers
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:31 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                          Dear Teej;

                          I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                          apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                          the Episcopal Church.

                          BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                          congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                          as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                          Gerry Mayers wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Harry;
                          >
                          > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                          > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                          > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                          > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                          > fully
                          > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                          > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                          > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                          Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                          all
                          of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                          Stuart's
                          father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                          little
                          too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                          like
                          her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                          and
                          Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                          interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                          in
                          the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                          church. In
                          1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                          referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                          a
                          member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                          you
                          stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                          stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                          his way
                          to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                          sold
                          to the War Dept for $5000.
                          >
                          > Teej





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • richard@rcroker.com
                          We must all remember that both sides had professional propoganda machines that would make today s spin rooms blush. I for one don t buy into the tee totaling,
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                            We must all remember that both sides had professional propoganda machines that would make today's spin rooms blush. I for one don't buy into the tee totaling, tobacco free and forever faithful JEB Stuart. It just doesn't match his personality. Okay -- THIS time you can shoot me. Have fun


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: G E Mayers
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:27 AM
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


                            Dear Harry;

                            Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                            campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                            Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                            spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
                            after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                            Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                            Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                            IIRC this was 1859...which is why he was available to assist with
                            the John Brown expedition commanded by none other than Marse
                            Robt.

                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:17 AM
                            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

                            > Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it
                            > was a "fun"
                            > hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or
                            > dining.
                            >
                            > Harry
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of G E Mayers
                            > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:14 AM
                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear Harry and Larry,
                            >
                            > Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
                            > footnotes also would be valuable.
                            >
                            > I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
                            > moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                            > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                            > campaign against Pope?
                            >
                            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            >
                            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                            > from
                            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast.
                            > <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
                            > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
                            > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                            >
                            >> Larry,
                            >>
                            >> No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
                            >> so much a
                            >> product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
                            >> of points
                            >> Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
                            >> built an overt
                            >> case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak
                            >> for
                            >> itself. You
                            >> have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
                            >> everything
                            >> together.
                            >>
                            >> Harry
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> -----Original Message-----
                            >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com
                            >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com] On
                            >> Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                            >> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
                            >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            >> yahoogroups.com
                            >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Harry,
                            >>
                            >> Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
                            >> looks
                            >> like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
                            >> have
                            >> some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
                            >> this
                            >> website.
                            >>
                            >> Larry F.
                            >>
                            >> RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                            >>
                            >> Larry,
                            >>
                            >> Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
                            >> discussion.
                            >> Try this:
                            >>
                            >> Click
                            >> <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.
                            > <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?>
                            >> org/modules.php?
                            >> name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                            >> file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
                            >>
                            >> If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you
                            >> earlier.once
                            >> you
                            >> get to
                            >> the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
                            >> look for
                            >> Stuart
                            >> in the Maryland Campaign thread.
                            >>
                            >> Harry
                            >>
                            >> -----Original Message-----
                            >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            >> yahoogroups.com
                            >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            >> yahoogroups.com] On
                            >> Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                            >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                            >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            >> yahoogroups.com
                            >> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
                            >> Heights
                            >>
                            >> I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
                            >> says,
                            >> with
                            >> the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
                            >> Lee was
                            >> unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement
                            >> of
                            >> the
                            >> AotP
                            >> prior to the implementation, and that information should have
                            >> been
                            >> provided
                            >> him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart
                            >> advised
                            >> Lee
                            >> that
                            >> he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
                            >> and
                            >> the next
                            >> day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
                            >>
                            >> Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
                            >> this
                            >> discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
                            >> work
                            >> out
                            >> again:
                            >>
                            >> Harry
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Harry Smeltzer
                            Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don t see how Stuart s presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a difference. Seriously.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                              Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don't see how Stuart's
                              presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a difference.

                              Seriously.

                              Harry



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of richard@...
                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 2:39 PM
                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                              And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an
                              excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel?

                              I'm just kidding guys!! Don't shoot me!

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: G E Mayers
                              To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:31 PM
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                              Dear Teej;

                              I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                              apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                              the Episcopal Church.

                              BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                              congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                              as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "barringer63" <teej@... <mailto:teej%40nc.rr.com> >
                              To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                              Gerry Mayers wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Harry;
                              >
                              > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                              > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                              > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                              > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                              > fully
                              > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                              > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                              > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                              Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                              all
                              of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                              Stuart's
                              father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                              little
                              too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                              like
                              her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                              and
                              Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                              interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                              in
                              the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                              church. In
                              1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                              referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                              a
                              member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                              you
                              stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                              stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                              his way
                              to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                              sold
                              to the War Dept for $5000.
                              >
                              > Teej

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • barringer63
                              ... difference. ... Not for the same reason as yours, of course, but it may surprise you to know that H.B. McClellan agreed with you somewhat. He wrote that
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                                >
                                > Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don't see how Stuart's
                                > presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a
                                difference.
                                >
                                > Seriously.

                                Not for the same reason as yours, of course, but it may surprise you
                                to know that H.B. McClellan agreed with you somewhat. He wrote that
                                even if Stuart had been able to communicate with Lee after the 30th, it
                                was doubtful that it would have made any difference in the outcome of
                                the battle of Gettysburg.

                                Teej
                              • Stephen Recker
                                Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING? (Apologies to A. Lincoln) Stephen
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                  Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of
                                  Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                  (Apologies to A. Lincoln)

                                  Stephen

                                  On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                  > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                  > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                  > campaign against Pope?
                                • eighth_conn_inf
                                  Now take Wade Hampton--there s a cavalry general! LHF ... of
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                    Now take Wade Hampton--there's a cavalry general!

                                    LHF

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                    of
                                    > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
                                    >
                                    > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
                                    >
                                    > Stephen
                                    >
                                    > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                    > > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                    > > campaign against Pope?
                                    >
                                  • barringer63
                                    ... of ... As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on Bev
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                      Stephen Recker wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                      of
                                      > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                      As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                      crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                      Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                      physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                      well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                      been. :-)

                                      Teej
                                      >
                                    • G E Mayers
                                      Dear Stephen, If you have read Harsh s Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is a discussion there about Stuart s involvement in that campaign as well as the Ox
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                        Dear Stephen,

                                        If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
                                        a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
                                        well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
                                        with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

                                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:01 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


                                        > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the
                                        > Battle of
                                        > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
                                        >
                                        > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
                                        >
                                        > Stephen
                                        >
                                        > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                        >> from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                        >> campaign against Pope?
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • barringer63
                                        ... David Welker, author of Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of Chantilly wrote that if Lee hadn t been distracted by more important battles like 2nd Manassas
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                          Gerry Mayers wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear Stephen,
                                          >
                                          > If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
                                          > a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
                                          > well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
                                          > with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

                                          David Welker, author of "Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of
                                          Chantilly" wrote that if Lee hadn't been distracted by more important
                                          battles like 2nd Manassas and Antietam, it's very likely Stuart would
                                          have been brought up on charges of "dereliction of duty" for his
                                          abysmal performance at Ox Hill. Personally, I'm surprised Jackson
                                          didn't have Stuart shot.

                                          Teej
                                          >
                                        • richard@rcroker.com
                                          I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I d ALMOST bet the ranch. ... From: barringer63 To:
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                            I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: barringer63
                                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                            Stephen Recker wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                            of
                                            > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                            As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                            crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                            Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                            physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                            well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                            been. :-)

                                            Teej
                                            >





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Stephen Recker
                                            Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-) -sjr On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM,
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                              Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                                              -sjr

                                              On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                                              wrote:

                                              > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                                              > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                            • richard@rcroker.com
                                              Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                                Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                                As always, your obdient servant,

                                                Richard Croker
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: Stephen Recker
                                                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:24 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                                Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                                                -sjr

                                                On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                                                wrote:

                                                > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                                                > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.





                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Harry Smeltzer
                                                It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke - sorry, Steve! ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                                  It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                                  sorry, Steve!



                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                  Behalf Of richard@...
                                                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:01 PM
                                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                                  I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In
                                                  fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: barringer63
                                                  To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                                  Stephen Recker wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                                  of
                                                  > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                                  As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                                  crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                                  Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                                  physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                                  well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                                  been. :-)

                                                  Teej
                                                  >

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Stephen Recker
                                                  ... In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with gladness, and I will work on my material as well. Interesting about that Lincoln
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                                    > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                                                    > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                                                    > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                                    On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                                                    > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                                    > sorry, Steve!

                                                    In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                                                    gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                                                    Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                                                    after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                                                    case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                                                    them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                                                    Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                    early-September performance?

                                                    Stephen Recker
                                                    Historical Humorist
                                                  • Harry Smeltzer
                                                    Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been interpreted as examples
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                      Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much
                                                      apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been
                                                      interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic wit can be
                                                      more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of military
                                                      realities.

                                                      Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!

                                                      Harry



                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                      Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                                      > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                                                      > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                                                      > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                                      On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                                                      > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                                      > sorry, Steve!

                                                      In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                                                      gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                                                      Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                                                      after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                                                      case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                                                      them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                                                      Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                      early-September performance?

                                                      Stephen Recker
                                                      Historical Humorist





                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • G E Mayers
                                                      Dear Harry, How about both factors at work? What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                        Dear Harry,

                                                        How about both factors at work?

                                                        What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                                                        mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                        particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                                                        distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                                                        officers.

                                                        Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                                                        Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                                                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                                                        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                                        > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                                                        > much
                                                        > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                                                        > been
                                                        > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                                                        > wit can be
                                                        > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                                                        > military
                                                        > realities.
                                                        >
                                                        > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                                                        >
                                                        > Harry
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                        > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                        > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                                                        >> paid
                                                        >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                                                        >> without
                                                        >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                                                        >> accept.
                                                        >
                                                        > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                                                        > wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                                                        >> a joke -
                                                        >> sorry, Steve!
                                                        >
                                                        > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                                                        > words with
                                                        > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                                                        >
                                                        > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                                                        > sides
                                                        > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                                                        > decent
                                                        > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                                                        > would cause
                                                        > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                                                        > around
                                                        > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                        > early-September performance?
                                                        >
                                                        > Stephen Recker
                                                        > Historical Humorist
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                      • Harry Smeltzer
                                                        Well, Gerry, that IS a movie. And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters. I
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                          Well, Gerry, that IS a movie.

                                                          And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West
                                                          Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters.

                                                          I think that distrust of amateurs by professionals is prevalent in any
                                                          profession, be it the military, the law, medicine, accounting, plumbing,
                                                          welding, you name it.

                                                          Harry



                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                          Behalf Of G E Mayers
                                                          Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:04 AM
                                                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                                          Dear Harry,

                                                          How about both factors at work?

                                                          What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                                                          mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                          particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                                                          distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                                                          officers.

                                                          Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                                                          Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                                                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
                                                          To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                                                          Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                                          > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                                                          > much
                                                          > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                                                          > been
                                                          > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                                                          > wit can be
                                                          > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                                                          > military
                                                          > realities.
                                                          >
                                                          > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                                                          >
                                                          > Harry
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                                          > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          yahoogroups.com
                                                          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          yahoogroups.com] On
                                                          > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                          > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                          > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                                                          >> paid
                                                          >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                                                          >> without
                                                          >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                                                          >> accept.
                                                          >
                                                          > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                                                          > wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                                                          >> a joke -
                                                          >> sorry, Steve!
                                                          >
                                                          > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                                                          > words with
                                                          > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                                                          >
                                                          > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                                                          > sides
                                                          > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                                                          > decent
                                                          > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                                                          > would cause
                                                          > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                                                          > around
                                                          > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                          > early-September performance?
                                                          >
                                                          > Stephen Recker
                                                          > Historical Humorist
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >
                                                          >





                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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