Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

Expand Messages
  • Harry Smeltzer
    Larry, No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not so much a product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization of points Harsh
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
      Larry,

      No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not so much a
      product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization of points
      Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have built an overt
      case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak for itself. You
      have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link everything
      together.

      Harry



      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG



      Harry,

      Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it looks
      like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to have
      some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of this
      website.

      Larry F.

      RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

      Larry,

      Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
      discussion.
      Try this:

      Click
      <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?
      name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
      file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

      If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you
      get to
      the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for
      Stuart
      in the Maryland Campaign thread.

      Harry

      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
      To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

      I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says,
      with
      the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
      unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the
      AotP
      prior to the implementation, and that information should have been
      provided
      him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee
      that
      he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and
      the next
      day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

      Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
      discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work
      out
      again:

      Harry





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • G E Mayers
      Dear Harry and Larry, Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh s footnotes also would be valuable. I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
        Dear Harry and Larry,

        Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
        footnotes also would be valuable.

        I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
        moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
        from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
        campaign against Pope?

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


        > Larry,
        >
        > No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
        > so much a
        > product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
        > of points
        > Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
        > built an overt
        > case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak for
        > itself. You
        > have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
        > everything
        > together.
        >
        > Harry
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
        >
        >
        >
        > Harry,
        >
        > Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
        > looks
        > like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
        > have
        > some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
        > this
        > website.
        >
        > Larry F.
        >
        > RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
        >
        > Larry,
        >
        > Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
        > discussion.
        > Try this:
        >
        > Click
        > <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?>
        > org/modules.php?
        > name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
        > file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
        >
        > If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once
        > you
        > get to
        > the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
        > look for
        > Stuart
        > in the Maryland Campaign thread.
        >
        > Harry
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
        > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
        > Heights
        >
        > I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
        > says,
        > with
        > the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
        > Lee was
        > unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of
        > the
        > AotP
        > prior to the implementation, and that information should have
        > been
        > provided
        > him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised
        > Lee
        > that
        > he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
        > and
        > the next
        > day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
        >
        > Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
        > this
        > discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
        > work
        > out
        > again:
        >
        > Harry
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
      • Harry Smeltzer
        Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it was a fun hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or dining. Harry ...
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
          Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it was a "fun"
          hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or dining.

          Harry



          -----Original Message-----
          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of G E Mayers
          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:14 AM
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG



          Dear Harry and Larry,

          Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
          footnotes also would be valuable.

          I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
          moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
          from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
          campaign against Pope?

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
          To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
          Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

          > Larry,
          >
          > No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
          > so much a
          > product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
          > of points
          > Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
          > built an overt
          > case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak for
          > itself. You
          > have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
          > everything
          > together.
          >
          > Harry
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
          > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
          >
          >
          >
          > Harry,
          >
          > Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
          > looks
          > like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
          > have
          > some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
          > this
          > website.
          >
          > Larry F.
          >
          > RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          >
          > Larry,
          >
          > Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
          > discussion.
          > Try this:
          >
          > Click
          > <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.
          <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?>
          > org/modules.php?
          > name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
          > file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
          >
          > If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once
          > you
          > get to
          > the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
          > look for
          > Stuart
          > in the Maryland Campaign thread.
          >
          > Harry
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
          > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
          > Heights
          >
          > I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
          > says,
          > with
          > the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
          > Lee was
          > unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of
          > the
          > AotP
          > prior to the implementation, and that information should have
          > been
          > provided
          > him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised
          > Lee
          > that
          > he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
          > and
          > the next
          > day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
          >
          > Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
          > this
          > discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
          > work
          > out
          > again:
          >
          > Harry
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • G E Mayers
          Dear Harry; Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland Campaign. However, it
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
            Dear Harry;

            Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
            campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
            Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
            spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
            after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
            Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
            Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

            IIRC this was 1859...which is why he was available to assist with
            the John Brown expedition commanded by none other than Marse
            Robt.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:17 AM
            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


            > Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it
            > was a "fun"
            > hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or
            > dining.
            >
            > Harry
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of G E Mayers
            > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:14 AM
            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
            >
            >
            >
            > Dear Harry and Larry,
            >
            > Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
            > footnotes also would be valuable.
            >
            > I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
            > moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
            > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
            > campaign against Pope?
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
            > from
            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast.
            > <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
            > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
            >
            >> Larry,
            >>
            >> No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
            >> so much a
            >> product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
            >> of points
            >> Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
            >> built an overt
            >> case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak
            >> for
            >> itself. You
            >> have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
            >> everything
            >> together.
            >>
            >> Harry
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> -----Original Message-----
            >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com] On
            >> Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            >> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
            >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            >> yahoogroups.com
            >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Harry,
            >>
            >> Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
            >> looks
            >> like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
            >> have
            >> some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
            >> this
            >> website.
            >>
            >> Larry F.
            >>
            >> RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            >>
            >> Larry,
            >>
            >> Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
            >> discussion.
            >> Try this:
            >>
            >> Click
            >> <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.
            > <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?>
            >> org/modules.php?
            >> name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
            >> file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
            >>
            >> If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you
            >> earlier.once
            >> you
            >> get to
            >> the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
            >> look for
            >> Stuart
            >> in the Maryland Campaign thread.
            >>
            >> Harry
            >>
            >> -----Original Message-----
            >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            >> yahoogroups.com
            >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            >> yahoogroups.com] On
            >> Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
            >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
            >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            >> yahoogroups.com
            >> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
            >> Heights
            >>
            >> I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
            >> says,
            >> with
            >> the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
            >> Lee was
            >> unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement
            >> of
            >> the
            >> AotP
            >> prior to the implementation, and that information should have
            >> been
            >> provided
            >> him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart
            >> advised
            >> Lee
            >> that
            >> he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
            >> and
            >> the next
            >> day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
            >>
            >> Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
            >> this
            >> discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
            >> work
            >> out
            >> again:
            >>
            >> Harry
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • barringer63
            ... Stuart s temperance was a product of his mother insisting that all of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently, Stuart s father, Archibald
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
              Gerry Mayers wrote:
              >
              > Dear Harry;
              >
              > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
              > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
              > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
              > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
              > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
              > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
              > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

              Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that all
              of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently, Stuart's
              father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a little
              too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up like
              her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory and
              Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
              interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed in
              the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her church. In
              1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
              referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't a
              member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as you
              stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
              stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on his way
              to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he sold
              to the War Dept for $5000.
              >
              > Teej
            • G E Mayers
              Dear Teej; I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to the Episcopal Church. BTW
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                Dear Teej;

                I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                the Episcopal Church.

                BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                Gerry Mayers wrote:
                >
                > Dear Harry;
                >
                > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                > fully
                > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                all
                of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                Stuart's
                father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                little
                too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                like
                her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                and
                Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                in
                the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                church. In
                1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                a
                member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                you
                stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                his way
                to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                sold
                to the War Dept for $5000.
                >
                > Teej
              • eighth_conn_inf
                All, From what I ve read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything showing that he was
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                  All,

                  From what I've read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as
                  having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything
                  showing that he was exhausted or sick during the Maryland Campaign--
                  if anyone has some references showing this, pls let me know. As Harry
                  points out, the famous Urbana Ball which lasted until dawn and
                  included a mid-dance skirmish with some pesky Union Cavalry was well
                  within Stuart's and apparently many of his staff's limits. He did
                  have a light day after that ball, however.

                  I enjoyed reading all three of Harsh's books; it is unfortunate that
                  it is unlikely that he will complete his Maryland Campaign study from
                  the Union perspective.

                  Larry F.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Teej;
                  >
                  > I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                  > apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                  > the Episcopal Church.
                  >
                  > BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                  > congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                  > as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                  >
                  >
                  > Gerry Mayers wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dear Harry;
                  > >
                  > > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                  > > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                  > > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                  > > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                  > > fully
                  > > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                  > > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                  > > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....
                  >
                  > Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                  > all
                  > of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                  > Stuart's
                  > father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                  > little
                  > too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                  > like
                  > her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                  > and
                  > Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                  > interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                  > in
                  > the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                  > church. In
                  > 1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                  > referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                  > a
                  > member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                  > you
                  > stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                  > stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                  > his way
                  > to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                  > sold
                  > to the War Dept for $5000.
                  > >
                  > > Teej
                  >
                • Harry Smeltzer
                  Don t mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren t invited. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                    Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
                    invited.



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:09 PM
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                    All,

                    From what I've read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as
                    having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything
                    showing that he was exhausted or sick during the Maryland Campaign--
                    if anyone has some references showing this, pls let me know. As Harry
                    points out, the famous Urbana Ball which lasted until dawn and
                    included a mid-dance skirmish with some pesky Union Cavalry was well
                    within Stuart's and apparently many of his staff's limits. He did
                    have a light day after that ball, however.

                    I enjoyed reading all three of Harsh's books; it is unfortunate that
                    it is unlikely that he will complete his Maryland Campaign study from
                    the Union perspective.

                    Larry F.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Teej;
                    >
                    > I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                    > apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                    > the Episcopal Church.
                    >
                    > BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                    > congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                    > as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                    >
                    >
                    > Gerry Mayers wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear Harry;
                    > >
                    > > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                    > > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                    > > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                    > > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                    > > fully
                    > > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                    > > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                    > > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....
                    >
                    > Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                    > all
                    > of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                    > Stuart's
                    > father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                    > little
                    > too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                    > like
                    > her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                    > and
                    > Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                    > interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                    > in
                    > the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                    > church. In
                    > 1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                    > referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                    > a
                    > member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                    > you
                    > stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                    > stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                    > his way
                    > to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                    > sold
                    > to the War Dept for $5000.
                    > >
                    > > Teej
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • barringer63
                    ... They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by the time Stuart
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                      Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                      >
                      > Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
                      > invited.

                      They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his
                      fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by
                      the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was about,
                      Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry. Once
                      Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y. Reb and
                      Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as a "thank
                      you" cup of punch.

                      Teej
                      >
                    • Harry Smeltzer
                      See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball around Teej? Do you see what happens, Larry? Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                        See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball around Teej?
                        Do you see what happens, Larry?

                        Harry



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of barringer63
                        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:57 PM
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                        Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                        >
                        > Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
                        > invited.

                        They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his
                        fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by
                        the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was about,
                        Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry. Once
                        Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y. Reb and
                        Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as a "thank
                        you" cup of punch.

                        Teej
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • G E Mayers
                        Harry; LOL. Teej took it well..but she did point out something important..... It was the TarHeels who drove the pesky Yankees away, NOT Stuart & Co. Yr. Obt.
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                          Harry;

                          LOL. Teej took it well..but she did point out something
                          important.....

                          It was the TarHeels who drove the pesky Yankees away, NOT Stuart
                          & Co.

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:59 PM
                          Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                          > See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball
                          > around Teej?
                          > Do you see what happens, Larry?
                          >
                          > Harry
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          > Behalf Of barringer63
                          > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:57 PM
                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                          >>
                          >> Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels
                          >> weren't
                          >> invited.
                          >
                          > They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and
                          > his
                          > fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the
                          > ball, by
                          > the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was
                          > about,
                          > Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry.
                          > Once
                          > Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y.
                          > Reb and
                          > Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as
                          > a "thank
                          > you" cup of punch.
                          >
                          > Teej
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                        • richard@rcroker.com
                          And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel? I m just kidding guys!!
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                            And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel?

                            I'm just kidding guys!! Don't shoot me!

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: G E Mayers
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:31 PM
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                            Dear Teej;

                            I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                            apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                            the Episcopal Church.

                            BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                            congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                            as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                            Gerry Mayers wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Harry;
                            >
                            > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                            > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                            > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                            > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                            > fully
                            > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                            > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                            > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                            Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                            all
                            of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                            Stuart's
                            father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                            little
                            too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                            like
                            her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                            and
                            Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                            interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                            in
                            the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                            church. In
                            1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                            referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                            a
                            member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                            you
                            stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                            stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                            his way
                            to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                            sold
                            to the War Dept for $5000.
                            >
                            > Teej





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • richard@rcroker.com
                            We must all remember that both sides had professional propoganda machines that would make today s spin rooms blush. I for one don t buy into the tee totaling,
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                              We must all remember that both sides had professional propoganda machines that would make today's spin rooms blush. I for one don't buy into the tee totaling, tobacco free and forever faithful JEB Stuart. It just doesn't match his personality. Okay -- THIS time you can shoot me. Have fun


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: G E Mayers
                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:27 AM
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


                              Dear Harry;

                              Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                              campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                              Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                              spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
                              after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                              Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                              Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                              IIRC this was 1859...which is why he was available to assist with
                              the John Brown expedition commanded by none other than Marse
                              Robt.

                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:17 AM
                              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

                              > Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it
                              > was a "fun"
                              > hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or
                              > dining.
                              >
                              > Harry
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of G E Mayers
                              > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:14 AM
                              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Dear Harry and Larry,
                              >
                              > Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
                              > footnotes also would be valuable.
                              >
                              > I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
                              > moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                              > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                              > campaign against Pope?
                              >
                              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                              >
                              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                              > from
                              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast.
                              > <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
                              > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
                              > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                              >
                              >> Larry,
                              >>
                              >> No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
                              >> so much a
                              >> product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
                              >> of points
                              >> Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
                              >> built an overt
                              >> case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak
                              >> for
                              >> itself. You
                              >> have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
                              >> everything
                              >> together.
                              >>
                              >> Harry
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> -----Original Message-----
                              >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com
                              >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com] On
                              >> Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                              >> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
                              >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              >> yahoogroups.com
                              >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Harry,
                              >>
                              >> Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
                              >> looks
                              >> like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
                              >> have
                              >> some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
                              >> this
                              >> website.
                              >>
                              >> Larry F.
                              >>
                              >> RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                              >>
                              >> Larry,
                              >>
                              >> Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
                              >> discussion.
                              >> Try this:
                              >>
                              >> Click
                              >> <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.
                              > <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?>
                              >> org/modules.php?
                              >> name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                              >> file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
                              >>
                              >> If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you
                              >> earlier.once
                              >> you
                              >> get to
                              >> the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
                              >> look for
                              >> Stuart
                              >> in the Maryland Campaign thread.
                              >>
                              >> Harry
                              >>
                              >> -----Original Message-----
                              >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              >> yahoogroups.com
                              >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              >> yahoogroups.com] On
                              >> Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                              >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                              >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              >> yahoogroups.com
                              >> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
                              >> Heights
                              >>
                              >> I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
                              >> says,
                              >> with
                              >> the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
                              >> Lee was
                              >> unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement
                              >> of
                              >> the
                              >> AotP
                              >> prior to the implementation, and that information should have
                              >> been
                              >> provided
                              >> him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart
                              >> advised
                              >> Lee
                              >> that
                              >> he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
                              >> and
                              >> the next
                              >> day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
                              >>
                              >> Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
                              >> this
                              >> discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
                              >> work
                              >> out
                              >> again:
                              >>
                              >> Harry
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Harry Smeltzer
                              Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don t see how Stuart s presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a difference. Seriously.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don't see how Stuart's
                                presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a difference.

                                Seriously.

                                Harry



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of richard@...
                                Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 2:39 PM
                                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an
                                excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel?

                                I'm just kidding guys!! Don't shoot me!

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: G E Mayers
                                To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:31 PM
                                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                Dear Teej;

                                I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                                apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                                the Episcopal Church.

                                BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                                congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                                as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "barringer63" <teej@... <mailto:teej%40nc.rr.com> >
                                To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                Gerry Mayers wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Harry;
                                >
                                > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                                > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                                > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                                > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                                > fully
                                > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                                > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                                > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                                Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                                all
                                of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                                Stuart's
                                father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                                little
                                too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                                like
                                her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                                and
                                Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                                interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                                in
                                the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                                church. In
                                1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                                referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                                a
                                member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                                you
                                stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                                stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                                his way
                                to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                                sold
                                to the War Dept for $5000.
                                >
                                > Teej

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • barringer63
                                ... difference. ... Not for the same reason as yours, of course, but it may surprise you to know that H.B. McClellan agreed with you somewhat. He wrote that
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                  Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don't see how Stuart's
                                  > presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a
                                  difference.
                                  >
                                  > Seriously.

                                  Not for the same reason as yours, of course, but it may surprise you
                                  to know that H.B. McClellan agreed with you somewhat. He wrote that
                                  even if Stuart had been able to communicate with Lee after the 30th, it
                                  was doubtful that it would have made any difference in the outcome of
                                  the battle of Gettysburg.

                                  Teej
                                • Stephen Recker
                                  Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING? (Apologies to A. Lincoln) Stephen
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                    Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of
                                    Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                    (Apologies to A. Lincoln)

                                    Stephen

                                    On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                    > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                    > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                    > campaign against Pope?
                                  • eighth_conn_inf
                                    Now take Wade Hampton--there s a cavalry general! LHF ... of
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                      Now take Wade Hampton--there's a cavalry general!

                                      LHF

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                      of
                                      > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
                                      >
                                      > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
                                      >
                                      > Stephen
                                      >
                                      > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                      > > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                      > > campaign against Pope?
                                      >
                                    • barringer63
                                      ... of ... As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on Bev
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                        Stephen Recker wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                        of
                                        > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                        As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                        crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                        Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                        physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                        well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                        been. :-)

                                        Teej
                                        >
                                      • G E Mayers
                                        Dear Stephen, If you have read Harsh s Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is a discussion there about Stuart s involvement in that campaign as well as the Ox
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                          Dear Stephen,

                                          If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
                                          a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
                                          well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
                                          with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

                                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:01 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


                                          > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the
                                          > Battle of
                                          > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
                                          >
                                          > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
                                          >
                                          > Stephen
                                          >
                                          > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                          >
                                          >> but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                          >> from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                          >> campaign against Pope?
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • barringer63
                                          ... David Welker, author of Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of Chantilly wrote that if Lee hadn t been distracted by more important battles like 2nd Manassas
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                            Gerry Mayers wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Dear Stephen,
                                            >
                                            > If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
                                            > a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
                                            > well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
                                            > with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

                                            David Welker, author of "Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of
                                            Chantilly" wrote that if Lee hadn't been distracted by more important
                                            battles like 2nd Manassas and Antietam, it's very likely Stuart would
                                            have been brought up on charges of "dereliction of duty" for his
                                            abysmal performance at Ox Hill. Personally, I'm surprised Jackson
                                            didn't have Stuart shot.

                                            Teej
                                            >
                                          • richard@rcroker.com
                                            I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I d ALMOST bet the ranch. ... From: barringer63 To:
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                              I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: barringer63
                                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                              Stephen Recker wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                              of
                                              > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                              As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                              crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                              Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                              physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                              well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                              been. :-)

                                              Teej
                                              >





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Stephen Recker
                                              Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-) -sjr On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM,
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                                Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                                                -sjr

                                                On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                                                wrote:

                                                > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                                                > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                              • richard@rcroker.com
                                                Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                                  Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                                  As always, your obdient servant,

                                                  Richard Croker
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: Stephen Recker
                                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:24 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                                  Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                                                  -sjr

                                                  On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                                                  wrote:

                                                  > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                                                  > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.





                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Harry Smeltzer
                                                  It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke - sorry, Steve! ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                                    It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                                    sorry, Steve!



                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                    Behalf Of richard@...
                                                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:01 PM
                                                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                                    I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In
                                                    fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: barringer63
                                                    To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                                                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                                    Stephen Recker wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                                    of
                                                    > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                                    As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                                    crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                                    Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                                    physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                                    well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                                    been. :-)

                                                    Teej
                                                    >

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Stephen Recker
                                                    ... In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with gladness, and I will work on my material as well. Interesting about that Lincoln
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                                      > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                                                      > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                                                      > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                                      On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                                                      > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                                      > sorry, Steve!

                                                      In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                                                      gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                                                      Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                                                      after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                                                      case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                                                      them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                                                      Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                      early-September performance?

                                                      Stephen Recker
                                                      Historical Humorist
                                                    • Harry Smeltzer
                                                      Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been interpreted as examples
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                        Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much
                                                        apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been
                                                        interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic wit can be
                                                        more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of military
                                                        realities.

                                                        Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!

                                                        Harry



                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                        Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                                        > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                                                        > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                                                        > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                                        On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                                                        > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                                        > sorry, Steve!

                                                        In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                                                        gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                                                        Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                                                        after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                                                        case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                                                        them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                                                        Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                        early-September performance?

                                                        Stephen Recker
                                                        Historical Humorist





                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • G E Mayers
                                                        Dear Harry, How about both factors at work? What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                          Dear Harry,

                                                          How about both factors at work?

                                                          What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                                                          mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                          particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                                                          distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                                                          officers.

                                                          Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                                                          Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                                                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                                                          Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                                          > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                                                          > much
                                                          > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                                                          > been
                                                          > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                                                          > wit can be
                                                          > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                                                          > military
                                                          > realities.
                                                          >
                                                          > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                                                          >
                                                          > Harry
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                                          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                          > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                          > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                                                          >> paid
                                                          >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                                                          >> without
                                                          >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                                                          >> accept.
                                                          >
                                                          > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                                                          > wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                                                          >> a joke -
                                                          >> sorry, Steve!
                                                          >
                                                          > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                                                          > words with
                                                          > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                                                          >
                                                          > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                                                          > sides
                                                          > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                                                          > decent
                                                          > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                                                          > would cause
                                                          > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                                                          > around
                                                          > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                          > early-September performance?
                                                          >
                                                          > Stephen Recker
                                                          > Historical Humorist
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                        • Harry Smeltzer
                                                          Well, Gerry, that IS a movie. And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters. I
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                            Well, Gerry, that IS a movie.

                                                            And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West
                                                            Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters.

                                                            I think that distrust of amateurs by professionals is prevalent in any
                                                            profession, be it the military, the law, medicine, accounting, plumbing,
                                                            welding, you name it.

                                                            Harry



                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                            Behalf Of G E Mayers
                                                            Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:04 AM
                                                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                                            Dear Harry,

                                                            How about both factors at work?

                                                            What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                                                            mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                            particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                                                            distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                                                            officers.

                                                            Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                                                            Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                                                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
                                                            To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
                                                            Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                                                            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                                            > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                                                            > much
                                                            > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                                                            > been
                                                            > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                                                            > wit can be
                                                            > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                                                            > military
                                                            > realities.
                                                            >
                                                            > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                                                            >
                                                            > Harry
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                                            > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                            yahoogroups.com
                                                            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                            yahoogroups.com] On
                                                            > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                            > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                            > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                                                            >> paid
                                                            >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                                                            >> without
                                                            >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                                                            >> accept.
                                                            >
                                                            > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                                                            > wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                                                            >> a joke -
                                                            >> sorry, Steve!
                                                            >
                                                            > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                                                            > words with
                                                            > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                                                            >
                                                            > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                                                            > sides
                                                            > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                                                            > decent
                                                            > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                                                            > would cause
                                                            > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                                                            > around
                                                            > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                            > early-September performance?
                                                            >
                                                            > Stephen Recker
                                                            > Historical Humorist
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                            >
                                                            >





                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.