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CWDG

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Harry, Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it looks like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to have some really good
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Harry,

      Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it looks
      like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to have
      some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of this
      website.

      Larry F.


      RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights


      Larry,

      Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
      discussion.
      Try this:

      Click
      <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?
      name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
      file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

      If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you
      get to
      the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for
      Stuart
      in the Maryland Campaign thread.

      Harry



      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



      I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says,
      with
      the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
      unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the
      AotP
      prior to the implementation, and that information should have been
      provided
      him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee
      that
      he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and
      the next
      day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

      Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
      discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work
      out
      again:






      Harry
    • Harry Smeltzer
      Larry, No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not so much a product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization of points Harsh
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Larry,

        No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not so much a
        product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization of points
        Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have built an overt
        case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak for itself. You
        have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link everything
        together.

        Harry



        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG



        Harry,

        Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it looks
        like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to have
        some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of this
        website.

        Larry F.

        RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

        Larry,

        Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
        discussion.
        Try this:

        Click
        <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?
        name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
        file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

        If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you
        get to
        the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for
        Stuart
        in the Maryland Campaign thread.

        Harry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
        Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
        To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

        I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says,
        with
        the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
        unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the
        AotP
        prior to the implementation, and that information should have been
        provided
        him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee
        that
        he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and
        the next
        day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

        Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
        discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work
        out
        again:

        Harry





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Harry and Larry, Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh s footnotes also would be valuable. I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Harry and Larry,

          Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
          footnotes also would be valuable.

          I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
          moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
          from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
          campaign against Pope?

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
          Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


          > Larry,
          >
          > No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
          > so much a
          > product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
          > of points
          > Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
          > built an overt
          > case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak for
          > itself. You
          > have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
          > everything
          > together.
          >
          > Harry
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
          >
          >
          >
          > Harry,
          >
          > Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
          > looks
          > like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
          > have
          > some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
          > this
          > website.
          >
          > Larry F.
          >
          > RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          >
          > Larry,
          >
          > Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
          > discussion.
          > Try this:
          >
          > Click
          > <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?>
          > org/modules.php?
          > name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
          > file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
          >
          > If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once
          > you
          > get to
          > the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
          > look for
          > Stuart
          > in the Maryland Campaign thread.
          >
          > Harry
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
          > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
          > Heights
          >
          > I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
          > says,
          > with
          > the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
          > Lee was
          > unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of
          > the
          > AotP
          > prior to the implementation, and that information should have
          > been
          > provided
          > him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised
          > Lee
          > that
          > he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
          > and
          > the next
          > day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
          >
          > Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
          > this
          > discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
          > work
          > out
          > again:
          >
          > Harry
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • Harry Smeltzer
          Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it was a fun hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or dining. Harry ...
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it was a "fun"
            hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or dining.

            Harry



            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of G E Mayers
            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:14 AM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG



            Dear Harry and Larry,

            Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
            footnotes also would be valuable.

            I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
            moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
            from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
            campaign against Pope?

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
            To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

            > Larry,
            >
            > No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
            > so much a
            > product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
            > of points
            > Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
            > built an overt
            > case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak for
            > itself. You
            > have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
            > everything
            > together.
            >
            > Harry
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
            > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
            >
            >
            >
            > Harry,
            >
            > Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
            > looks
            > like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
            > have
            > some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
            > this
            > website.
            >
            > Larry F.
            >
            > RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            >
            > Larry,
            >
            > Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
            > discussion.
            > Try this:
            >
            > Click
            > <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.
            <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?>
            > org/modules.php?
            > name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
            > file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
            >
            > If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once
            > you
            > get to
            > the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
            > look for
            > Stuart
            > in the Maryland Campaign thread.
            >
            > Harry
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
            > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
            > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
            > Heights
            >
            > I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
            > says,
            > with
            > the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
            > Lee was
            > unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of
            > the
            > AotP
            > prior to the implementation, and that information should have
            > been
            > provided
            > him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised
            > Lee
            > that
            > he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
            > and
            > the next
            > day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
            >
            > Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
            > this
            > discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
            > work
            > out
            > again:
            >
            > Harry
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Harry; Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland Campaign. However, it
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Harry;

              Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
              campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
              Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
              spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
              after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
              Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
              Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

              IIRC this was 1859...which is why he was available to assist with
              the John Brown expedition commanded by none other than Marse
              Robt.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:17 AM
              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


              > Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it
              > was a "fun"
              > hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or
              > dining.
              >
              > Harry
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of G E Mayers
              > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:14 AM
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
              >
              >
              >
              > Dear Harry and Larry,
              >
              > Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
              > footnotes also would be valuable.
              >
              > I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
              > moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
              > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
              > campaign against Pope?
              >
              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
              > from
              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast.
              > <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
              > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
              >
              >> Larry,
              >>
              >> No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
              >> so much a
              >> product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
              >> of points
              >> Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
              >> built an overt
              >> case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak
              >> for
              >> itself. You
              >> have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
              >> everything
              >> together.
              >>
              >> Harry
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com
              >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com] On
              >> Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              >> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
              >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              >> yahoogroups.com
              >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Harry,
              >>
              >> Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
              >> looks
              >> like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
              >> have
              >> some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
              >> this
              >> website.
              >>
              >> Larry F.
              >>
              >> RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              >>
              >> Larry,
              >>
              >> Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
              >> discussion.
              >> Try this:
              >>
              >> Click
              >> <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.
              > <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?>
              >> org/modules.php?
              >> name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
              >> file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
              >>
              >> If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you
              >> earlier.once
              >> you
              >> get to
              >> the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
              >> look for
              >> Stuart
              >> in the Maryland Campaign thread.
              >>
              >> Harry
              >>
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              >> yahoogroups.com
              >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              >> yahoogroups.com] On
              >> Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
              >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
              >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              >> yahoogroups.com
              >> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
              >> Heights
              >>
              >> I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
              >> says,
              >> with
              >> the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
              >> Lee was
              >> unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement
              >> of
              >> the
              >> AotP
              >> prior to the implementation, and that information should have
              >> been
              >> provided
              >> him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart
              >> advised
              >> Lee
              >> that
              >> he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
              >> and
              >> the next
              >> day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
              >>
              >> Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
              >> this
              >> discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
              >> work
              >> out
              >> again:
              >>
              >> Harry
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
            • barringer63
              ... Stuart s temperance was a product of his mother insisting that all of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently, Stuart s father, Archibald
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Gerry Mayers wrote:
                >
                > Dear Harry;
                >
                > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
                > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that all
                of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently, Stuart's
                father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a little
                too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up like
                her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory and
                Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed in
                the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her church. In
                1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't a
                member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as you
                stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on his way
                to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he sold
                to the War Dept for $5000.
                >
                > Teej
              • G E Mayers
                Dear Teej; I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to the Episcopal Church. BTW
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Teej;

                  I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                  apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                  the Episcopal Church.

                  BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                  congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                  as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                  Gerry Mayers wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Harry;
                  >
                  > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                  > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                  > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                  > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                  > fully
                  > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                  > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                  > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                  Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                  all
                  of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                  Stuart's
                  father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                  little
                  too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                  like
                  her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                  and
                  Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                  interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                  in
                  the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                  church. In
                  1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                  referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                  a
                  member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                  you
                  stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                  stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                  his way
                  to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                  sold
                  to the War Dept for $5000.
                  >
                  > Teej
                • eighth_conn_inf
                  All, From what I ve read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything showing that he was
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    All,

                    From what I've read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as
                    having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything
                    showing that he was exhausted or sick during the Maryland Campaign--
                    if anyone has some references showing this, pls let me know. As Harry
                    points out, the famous Urbana Ball which lasted until dawn and
                    included a mid-dance skirmish with some pesky Union Cavalry was well
                    within Stuart's and apparently many of his staff's limits. He did
                    have a light day after that ball, however.

                    I enjoyed reading all three of Harsh's books; it is unfortunate that
                    it is unlikely that he will complete his Maryland Campaign study from
                    the Union perspective.

                    Larry F.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Teej;
                    >
                    > I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                    > apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                    > the Episcopal Church.
                    >
                    > BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                    > congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                    > as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                    >
                    >
                    > Gerry Mayers wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear Harry;
                    > >
                    > > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                    > > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                    > > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                    > > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                    > > fully
                    > > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                    > > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                    > > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....
                    >
                    > Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                    > all
                    > of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                    > Stuart's
                    > father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                    > little
                    > too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                    > like
                    > her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                    > and
                    > Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                    > interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                    > in
                    > the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                    > church. In
                    > 1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                    > referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                    > a
                    > member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                    > you
                    > stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                    > stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                    > his way
                    > to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                    > sold
                    > to the War Dept for $5000.
                    > >
                    > > Teej
                    >
                  • Harry Smeltzer
                    Don t mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren t invited. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
                      invited.



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:09 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                      All,

                      From what I've read, Stuart was reknowned throughout his career as
                      having superhuman endurance and stamina. I have not read anything
                      showing that he was exhausted or sick during the Maryland Campaign--
                      if anyone has some references showing this, pls let me know. As Harry
                      points out, the famous Urbana Ball which lasted until dawn and
                      included a mid-dance skirmish with some pesky Union Cavalry was well
                      within Stuart's and apparently many of his staff's limits. He did
                      have a light day after that ball, however.

                      I enjoyed reading all three of Harsh's books; it is unfortunate that
                      it is unlikely that he will complete his Maryland Campaign study from
                      the Union perspective.

                      Larry F.

                      --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Teej;
                      >
                      > I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                      > apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                      > the Episcopal Church.
                      >
                      > BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                      > congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                      > as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >
                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                      > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                      >
                      >
                      > Gerry Mayers wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dear Harry;
                      > >
                      > > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                      > > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                      > > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                      > > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                      > > fully
                      > > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                      > > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                      > > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....
                      >
                      > Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                      > all
                      > of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                      > Stuart's
                      > father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                      > little
                      > too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                      > like
                      > her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                      > and
                      > Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                      > interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                      > in
                      > the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                      > church. In
                      > 1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                      > referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                      > a
                      > member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                      > you
                      > stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                      > stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                      > his way
                      > to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                      > sold
                      > to the War Dept for $5000.
                      > >
                      > > Teej
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • barringer63
                      ... They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by the time Stuart
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                        >
                        > Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
                        > invited.

                        They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his
                        fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by
                        the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was about,
                        Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry. Once
                        Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y. Reb and
                        Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as a "thank
                        you" cup of punch.

                        Teej
                        >
                      • Harry Smeltzer
                        See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball around Teej? Do you see what happens, Larry? Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball around Teej?
                          Do you see what happens, Larry?

                          Harry



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of barringer63
                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:57 PM
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                          Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                          >
                          > Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels weren't
                          > invited.

                          They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and his
                          fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the ball, by
                          the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was about,
                          Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry. Once
                          Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y. Reb and
                          Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as a "thank
                          you" cup of punch.

                          Teej
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • G E Mayers
                          Harry; LOL. Teej took it well..but she did point out something important..... It was the TarHeels who drove the pesky Yankees away, NOT Stuart & Co. Yr. Obt.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Harry;

                            LOL. Teej took it well..but she did point out something
                            important.....

                            It was the TarHeels who drove the pesky Yankees away, NOT Stuart
                            & Co.

                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:59 PM
                            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                            > See, Larry? Do you see what happens when you mention that ball
                            > around Teej?
                            > Do you see what happens, Larry?
                            >
                            > Harry
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of barringer63
                            > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:57 PM
                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                            >>
                            >> Don't mention the Urbana shindig around Teej. The Tar Heels
                            >> weren't
                            >> invited.
                            >
                            > They were invited....invited to stand guard while Stuart and
                            > his
                            > fellow Vuhjinyans partied down. As for the skirmish during the
                            > ball, by
                            > the time Stuart decided to see what all the fuss outside was
                            > about,
                            > Barringer and his Tar Heels had driven off the Yankee cavalry.
                            > Once
                            > Stuart was assured all was again well, he went back to his N.Y.
                            > Reb and
                            > Barringer and company went back on pickett duty w/o so much as
                            > a "thank
                            > you" cup of punch.
                            >
                            > Teej
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                          • richard@rcroker.com
                            And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel? I m just kidding guys!!
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel?

                              I'm just kidding guys!! Don't shoot me!

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: G E Mayers
                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:31 PM
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                              Dear Teej;

                              I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                              apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                              the Episcopal Church.

                              BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                              congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                              as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                              Gerry Mayers wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Harry;
                              >
                              > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                              > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                              > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                              > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                              > fully
                              > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                              > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                              > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                              Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                              all
                              of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                              Stuart's
                              father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                              little
                              too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                              like
                              her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                              and
                              Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                              interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                              in
                              the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                              church. In
                              1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                              referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                              a
                              member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                              you
                              stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                              stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                              his way
                              to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                              sold
                              to the War Dept for $5000.
                              >
                              > Teej





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • richard@rcroker.com
                              We must all remember that both sides had professional propoganda machines that would make today s spin rooms blush. I for one don t buy into the tee totaling,
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                We must all remember that both sides had professional propoganda machines that would make today's spin rooms blush. I for one don't buy into the tee totaling, tobacco free and forever faithful JEB Stuart. It just doesn't match his personality. Okay -- THIS time you can shoot me. Have fun


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: G E Mayers
                                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:27 AM
                                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


                                Dear Harry;

                                Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                                campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                                Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                                spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church fully
                                after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                                Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                                Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                                IIRC this was 1859...which is why he was available to assist with
                                the John Brown expedition commanded by none other than Marse
                                Robt.

                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:17 AM
                                Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG

                                > Maybe he was just hung over (I know, teetotaler, but maybe it
                                > was a "fun"
                                > hangover)? His fatigue did not appear to affect his dancing or
                                > dining.
                                >
                                > Harry
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of G E Mayers
                                > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:14 AM
                                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Dear Harry and Larry,
                                >
                                > Sounding the Shadows might also help...and the use of Harsh's
                                > footnotes also would be valuable.
                                >
                                > I agree Maryland Campaign was not one of Stuart's shinin
                                > moments....but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                > campaign against Pope?
                                >
                                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                >
                                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                > from
                                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast.
                                > <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
                                > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:04 AM
                                > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                                >
                                >> Larry,
                                >>
                                >> No problem. Keep in mind that the points I summarized are not
                                >> so much a
                                >> product of my supreme intellect but are really a summarization
                                >> of points
                                >> Harsh made in TATF. I think if he had wanted he could have
                                >> built an overt
                                >> case against Stuart, but he chose to let the evidence speak
                                >> for
                                >> itself. You
                                >> have to dig through his book and use lots of post-its to link
                                >> everything
                                >> together.
                                >>
                                >> Harry
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> -----Original Message-----
                                >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > yahoogroups.com
                                >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > yahoogroups.com] On
                                >> Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                >> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:23 AM
                                >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                >> yahoogroups.com
                                >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] CWDG
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> Harry,
                                >>
                                >> Thank you very much for this link; I quickly scanned it and it
                                >> looks
                                >> like I will have to read it all carefully since it appears to
                                >> have
                                >> some really good info as well as opinions. I was not aware of
                                >> this
                                >> website.
                                >>
                                >> Larry F.
                                >>
                                >> RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                >>
                                >> Larry,
                                >>
                                >> Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the
                                >> discussion.
                                >> Try this:
                                >>
                                >> Click
                                >> <http://cwdgonline. <http://cwdgonline.
                                > <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?> org/modules.php?>
                                >> org/modules.php?
                                >> name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                                >> file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this
                                >>
                                >> If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you
                                >> earlier.once
                                >> you
                                >> get to
                                >> the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then
                                >> look for
                                >> Stuart
                                >> in the Maryland Campaign thread.
                                >>
                                >> Harry
                                >>
                                >> -----Original Message-----
                                >> From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                >> yahoogroups.com
                                >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                >> yahoogroups.com] On
                                >> Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                                >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                                >> To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                >> yahoogroups.com
                                >> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland
                                >> Heights
                                >>
                                >> I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh
                                >> says,
                                >> with
                                >> the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that
                                >> Lee was
                                >> unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement
                                >> of
                                >> the
                                >> AotP
                                >> prior to the implementation, and that information should have
                                >> been
                                >> provided
                                >> him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart
                                >> advised
                                >> Lee
                                >> that
                                >> he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so,
                                >> and
                                >> the next
                                >> day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.
                                >>
                                >> Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out
                                >> this
                                >> discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's
                                >> work
                                >> out
                                >> again:
                                >>
                                >> Harry
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Harry Smeltzer
                                Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don t see how Stuart s presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a difference. Seriously.
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don't see how Stuart's
                                  presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a difference.

                                  Seriously.

                                  Harry



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of richard@...
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 2:39 PM
                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                  And people wonder where Jeb was before Gettysburg. Might he have taken an
                                  excursion to Urbana for a visit with the New York Rebel?

                                  I'm just kidding guys!! Don't shoot me!

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: G E Mayers
                                  To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:31 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                  Dear Teej;

                                  I somehow thought JEB remained Methodist all his life...but
                                  apparently his vow of temperance continued once he switched to
                                  the Episcopal Church.

                                  BTW I have learned a few months ago that many Episcopalian
                                  congregations in this country used the same Book of Common Prayer
                                  as was used for the United Church of England and Ireland....

                                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "barringer63" <teej@... <mailto:teej%40nc.rr.com> >
                                  To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:25 PM
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                  Gerry Mayers wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Harry;
                                  >
                                  > Do not know how much of what Stuart did during the 2nd Manassas
                                  > campaign might have impaired his performance during Maryland
                                  > Campaign. However, it is true that Stuart neither drank hard
                                  > spirits or smoked...due to his joining the Methodist Church
                                  > fully
                                  > after being confirmed en route to a General Conference of the
                                  > Methodist Episcopal South in Virginia, IIRC, from St.
                                  > Louis..where he was stationed at the time....

                                  Stuart's temperance was a product of his mother insisting that
                                  all
                                  of her sons take an oath to never touch alcohol. Apparently,
                                  Stuart's
                                  father, Archibald Stuart, liked spirits and games of chance a
                                  little
                                  too much and Mrs. Stuart was determined her sons wouldn't end up
                                  like
                                  her husband. Stuart joined the Methodist Church while at Emory
                                  and
                                  Henry. That changed when he got to West Point where he became
                                  interested in the Episcopal Church. Flora Cooke Stuart was a dyed
                                  in
                                  the wool Episcopalian who encouraged her husband to join her
                                  church. In
                                  1859 he was asked to be a delegate to the Conference to which you
                                  referred. He couldn't rightfully be a delegate because he wasn't
                                  a
                                  member of the Episcopal Church. A situation he took care of as
                                  you
                                  stated in St. Louis. However, he wasn't stationed there; he was
                                  stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He passed through St. Louis on
                                  his way
                                  to DC to get a patent on a sabre release he had invented which he
                                  sold
                                  to the War Dept for $5000.
                                  >
                                  > Teej

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • barringer63
                                  ... difference. ... Not for the same reason as yours, of course, but it may surprise you to know that H.B. McClellan agreed with you somewhat. He wrote that
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Harry Smeltzer wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Based on his performance in Maryland in 1862, I don't see how Stuart's
                                    > presence with the AoNV in Pennsylvania would have made much of a
                                    difference.
                                    >
                                    > Seriously.

                                    Not for the same reason as yours, of course, but it may surprise you
                                    to know that H.B. McClellan agreed with you somewhat. He wrote that
                                    even if Stuart had been able to communicate with Lee after the 30th, it
                                    was doubtful that it would have made any difference in the outcome of
                                    the battle of Gettysburg.

                                    Teej
                                  • Stephen Recker
                                    Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING? (Apologies to A. Lincoln) Stephen
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle of
                                      Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                      (Apologies to A. Lincoln)

                                      Stephen

                                      On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                      > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                      > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                      > campaign against Pope?
                                    • eighth_conn_inf
                                      Now take Wade Hampton--there s a cavalry general! LHF ... of
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Now take Wade Hampton--there's a cavalry general!

                                        LHF

                                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                        of
                                        > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
                                        >
                                        > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
                                        >
                                        > Stephen
                                        >
                                        > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                        > > from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                        > > campaign against Pope?
                                        >
                                      • barringer63
                                        ... of ... As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on Bev
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Stephen Recker wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                          of
                                          > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                          As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                          crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                          Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                          physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                          well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                          been. :-)

                                          Teej
                                          >
                                        • G E Mayers
                                          Dear Stephen, If you have read Harsh s Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is a discussion there about Stuart s involvement in that campaign as well as the Ox
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear Stephen,

                                            If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
                                            a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
                                            well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
                                            with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

                                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:01 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] CWDG


                                            > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the
                                            > Battle of
                                            > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?
                                            >
                                            > (Apologies to A. Lincoln)
                                            >
                                            > Stephen
                                            >
                                            > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                            >
                                            >> but I wonder if he was suffering from battle fatigue
                                            >> from the strenuous demands of the just completed 2nd Manassas
                                            >> campaign against Pope?
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • barringer63
                                            ... David Welker, author of Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of Chantilly wrote that if Lee hadn t been distracted by more important battles like 2nd Manassas
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Gerry Mayers wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Dear Stephen,
                                              >
                                              > If you have read Harsh's Confederate Tide Rising, IIRC, there is
                                              > a discussion there about Stuart's involvement in that campaign as
                                              > well as the Ox Hill battle. That might help answer your question,
                                              > with apologies to Mr Lincoln.

                                              David Welker, author of "Tempest at Ox Hill: The Battle of
                                              Chantilly" wrote that if Lee hadn't been distracted by more important
                                              battles like 2nd Manassas and Antietam, it's very likely Stuart would
                                              have been brought up on charges of "dereliction of duty" for his
                                              abysmal performance at Ox Hill. Personally, I'm surprised Jackson
                                              didn't have Stuart shot.

                                              Teej
                                              >
                                            • richard@rcroker.com
                                              I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I d ALMOST bet the ranch. ... From: barringer63 To:
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: barringer63
                                                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                                Stephen Recker wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                                of
                                                > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                                As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                                crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                                Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                                physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                                well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                                been. :-)

                                                Teej
                                                >





                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Stephen Recker
                                                Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-) -sjr On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM,
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                                                  -sjr

                                                  On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                                                  wrote:

                                                  > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                                                  > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                                • richard@rcroker.com
                                                  Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes appologies. Had I paid more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                                    As always, your obdient servant,

                                                    Richard Croker
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: Stephen Recker
                                                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:24 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                                    Yes, I know. I was making a joke. Apparently not a very funny one ;-)

                                                    -sjr

                                                    On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:00 PM, <richard@...>
                                                    wrote:

                                                    > I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II.
                                                    > In fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.





                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Harry Smeltzer
                                                    It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke - sorry, Steve! ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                                      sorry, Steve!



                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                      Behalf Of richard@...
                                                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:01 PM
                                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                                      I believe that Lincoln quotation regarded Antietam -- not Manassas II. In
                                                      fact - I'd ALMOST bet the ranch.
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: barringer63
                                                      To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:47 PM
                                                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                                      Stephen Recker wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Would you mind telling me what his horses had done since the Battle
                                                      of
                                                      > Second Mannassas that would fatigue ANYTHING?

                                                      As I recall, Stuart spent most of his time from 2nd Manassas until
                                                      crossing the Potomac to kick off the Antietam Campaign riding herd on
                                                      Bev Robertson. Now, while that wouldn't necessarily have been
                                                      physically challenging, if you know anything about Robertson, you can
                                                      well imagine how mentally and emotionally draining that must have
                                                      been. :-)

                                                      Teej
                                                      >

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Stephen Recker
                                                      ... In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with gladness, and I will work on my material as well. Interesting about that Lincoln
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Dec 20, 2007
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                                                        > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                                                        > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                                        On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                                                        > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                                        > sorry, Steve!

                                                        In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                                                        gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                                                        Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                                                        after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                                                        case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                                                        them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                                                        Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                        early-September performance?

                                                        Stephen Recker
                                                        Historical Humorist
                                                      • Harry Smeltzer
                                                        Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been interpreted as examples
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty much
                                                          apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has been
                                                          interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic wit can be
                                                          more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of military
                                                          realities.

                                                          Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!

                                                          Harry



                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                          Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                                          > Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I paid
                                                          > more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known without
                                                          > hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please accept.

                                                          On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                                                          > It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL a joke -
                                                          > sorry, Steve!

                                                          In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind words with
                                                          gladness, and I will work on my material as well.

                                                          Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both sides
                                                          after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty decent
                                                          case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that would cause
                                                          them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding around
                                                          Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                          early-September performance?

                                                          Stephen Recker
                                                          Historical Humorist





                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • G E Mayers
                                                          Dear Harry, How about both factors at work? What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Dear Harry,

                                                            How about both factors at work?

                                                            What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                                                            mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                            particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                                                            distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                                                            officers.

                                                            Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                                                            Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                                                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                                                            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG


                                                            > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                                                            > much
                                                            > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                                                            > been
                                                            > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                                                            > wit can be
                                                            > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                                                            > military
                                                            > realities.
                                                            >
                                                            > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                                                            >
                                                            > Harry
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                                            > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                            > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                            > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                                                            >> paid
                                                            >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                                                            >> without
                                                            >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                                                            >> accept.
                                                            >
                                                            > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                                                            > wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                                                            >> a joke -
                                                            >> sorry, Steve!
                                                            >
                                                            > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                                                            > words with
                                                            > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                                                            >
                                                            > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                                                            > sides
                                                            > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                                                            > decent
                                                            > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                                                            > would cause
                                                            > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                                                            > around
                                                            > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                            > early-September performance?
                                                            >
                                                            > Stephen Recker
                                                            > Historical Humorist
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                          • Harry Smeltzer
                                                            Well, Gerry, that IS a movie. And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters. I
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Dec 21, 2007
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Well, Gerry, that IS a movie.

                                                              And I think there were other things about Butterfield and Sickles that West
                                                              Pointers disliked aside from their alma maters.

                                                              I think that distrust of amateurs by professionals is prevalent in any
                                                              profession, be it the military, the law, medicine, accounting, plumbing,
                                                              welding, you name it.

                                                              Harry



                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                              Behalf Of G E Mayers
                                                              Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:04 AM
                                                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG



                                                              Dear Harry,

                                                              How about both factors at work?

                                                              What I find so interesting, especially in the AoP, is the
                                                              mistrust of the West Pointers for the volunteer officers,
                                                              particularly generals like Butterfield and Sickles, and the
                                                              distrust of the volunteers (in general) for West Point trained
                                                              officers.

                                                              Recall the famous scene in THE movie where the private from the
                                                              Second Maine is talking to Chamberlain???

                                                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                              From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net>
                                                              To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
                                                              Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:52 AM
                                                              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG

                                                              > Though it seldom gets mentioned, Lincoln backed down and pretty
                                                              > much
                                                              > apologized to McClellan for that letter. Sometimes what has
                                                              > been
                                                              > interpreted as examples of Lincoln's deep insight and acerbic
                                                              > wit can be
                                                              > more accurately described as a serious lack of understanding of
                                                              > military
                                                              > realities.
                                                              >
                                                              > Don't tell Doris I said that - she'll send a hit squad!
                                                              >
                                                              > Harry
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                                              > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                              yahoogroups.com
                                                              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                              yahoogroups.com] On
                                                              > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                                              > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 PM
                                                              > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                                              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CWDG
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >> Actually, my kind sir, I am the one who owes apologies. Had I
                                                              >> paid
                                                              >> more attention to the signature (yours) I would have known
                                                              >> without
                                                              >> hesitation that the comment was intended in jest. Please
                                                              >> accept.
                                                              >
                                                              > On Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 09:43 PM, Harry Smeltzer
                                                              > wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >> It also regarded McClellan and not Lee.wow, we can really KILL
                                                              >> a joke -
                                                              >> sorry, Steve!
                                                              >
                                                              > In the spirit of the season I will accept all of these kind
                                                              > words with
                                                              > gladness, and I will work on my material as well.
                                                              >
                                                              > Interesting about that Lincoln quote, and the cavalry of both
                                                              > sides
                                                              > after Antietam. Ethan Rafuse's "McClellan's War" makes a pretty
                                                              > decent
                                                              > case for what Mac's cavalry was doing after the battle that
                                                              > would cause
                                                              > them fatigue- they were chasing after Jeb Stuart who was riding
                                                              > around
                                                              > Mac's army. Perhaps Stuart was trying to make up for his poor
                                                              > early-September performance?
                                                              >
                                                              > Stephen Recker
                                                              > Historical Humorist
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                              >
                                                              >





                                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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