Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

Expand Messages
  • eighth_conn_inf
    Jake, I ordered Bridge s book and will plan to check it for Hill s remarks. Thank you, Larry F. ... sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death)
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Jake,

      I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

      Thank you,
      Larry F.


      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
      <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
      >
      > Larry:
      >
      > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
      sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
      cavalry in the camapign.
      >
      > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
      remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
      papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
      I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
      Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
      interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
      afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
      Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
      >
      > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
      glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
      made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
      be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
      >
      > --jake
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      ______________
      > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
      > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
      http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Joseph Pierro
      Cool. If it turns out there s something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I ll be happy to get it for
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll be happy to get it for you.

        ---jgp


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

        Jake,

        I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

        Thank you,
        Larry F.

        --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
        <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Larry:
        >
        > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
        sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
        cavalry in the camapign.
        >
        > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
        remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
        papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
        I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
        Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
        interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
        afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
        Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
        >
        > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
        glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
        made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
        be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
        >
        > --jake
        >
        >
        >
        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        ____________ __
        > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
        > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
        http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >





        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
        http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Harry Smeltzer
        I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was unaware of the
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
          the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
          unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
          prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
          him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
          he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
          day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

          Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
          discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
          again:

          http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums
          <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0>
          &file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0

          Harry



          -----Original Message-----
          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



          I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
          going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
          work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
          idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
          that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
          discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
          13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

          I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
          write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
          cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
          have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
          (and of course vice-versa).

          Larry F.

          --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
          >
          > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
          of the
          > AoNV than vice versa.
          >
          > Harry
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
          > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          >
          >
          >
          > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
          at
          > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
          > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
          >
          > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
          Campaign
          > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
          >
          > Larry F.
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
          > thing that
          > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
          > promptly offset
          > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
          > >
          > > Harry
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com] On
          > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
          > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
          > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
          thought
          > the
          > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
          that
          > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
          > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
          > surrender
          > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
          > Lee and
          > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
          > him.
          > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
          > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
          > >
          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > > Professor of History
          > > Hagerstown Community College
          > >
          > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
          > 40yahoo.com>
          > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
          > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
          troopers
          > at
          > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
          > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
          > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
          > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
          Hampton's
          > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
          > >
          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
          > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
          > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
          > > >
          > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          > > >
          > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
          from
          > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
          > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > yahoogroups.com>
          > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
          > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
          > > > Heights
          > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
          to
          > > > dig
          > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
          > > > south
          > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
          > > >
          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
          > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
          > > > >
          > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
          > > > > but
          > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
          > > > > not
          > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
          other
          > > > than
          > > > > for the 17th.
          > > > >
          > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
          > > > > until
          > > > > late January.
          > > > >
          > > > > Larry
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
          > > > > <clemenst@>
          > > > > wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
          > > > Attacks!
          > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
          > > > > > was
          > > > > written
          > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > > > > > Professor of History
          > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
          > > > > > Larry,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
          > > > > > book on
          > > > > > Harper's
          > > > > > Ferry > >
          > > > > > Harry
          > > > > >
          > > > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > yahoogroups.com
          > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > yahoogroups.com]
          > > > > > On
          > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          > > > > > Sent:
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Harry Smeltzer
          Larry, Hmm.looks like that link doesn t take you all the way to the discussion. Try this: Click
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Larry,

            Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the discussion.
            Try this:

            Click
            <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
            file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

            If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you get to
            the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for Stuart
            in the Maryland Campaign thread.

            Harry



            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
            Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



            I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
            the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
            unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
            prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
            him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
            he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
            day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

            Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
            discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
            again:






            Harry

            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

            I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
            going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
            work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
            idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
            that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
            discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
            13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

            I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
            write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
            cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
            have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
            (and of course vice-versa).

            Larry F.

            --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
            >
            > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
            of the
            > AoNV than vice versa.
            >
            > Harry
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
            > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            >
            >
            >
            > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
            at
            > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
            > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
            >
            > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
            Campaign
            > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
            >
            > Larry F.
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
            > thing that
            > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
            > promptly offset
            > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
            > >
            > > Harry
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com] On
            > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
            > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
            > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
            thought
            > the
            > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
            that
            > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
            > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
            > surrender
            > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
            > Lee and
            > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
            > him.
            > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
            > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
            > >
            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > Professor of History
            > > Hagerstown Community College
            > >
            > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
            > 40yahoo.com>
            > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
            > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
            troopers
            > at
            > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
            > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
            > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
            > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
            Hampton's
            > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
            > >
            > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
            > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
            > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
            > > >
            > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            > > >
            > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
            from
            > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
            > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
            > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
            > > > Heights
            > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
            to
            > > > dig
            > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
            > > > south
            > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
            > > >
            > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
            > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
            > > > >
            > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
            > > > > but
            > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
            > > > > not
            > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
            other
            > > > than
            > > > > for the 17th.
            > > > >
            > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
            > > > > until
            > > > > late January.
            > > > >
            > > > > Larry
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
            > > > > <clemenst@>
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
            > > > Attacks!
            > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
            > > > > > was
            > > > > written
            > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > > > > Professor of History
            > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
            > > > > > Larry,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
            > > > > > book on
            > > > > > Harper's
            > > > > > Ferry > >
            > > > > > Harry
            > > > > >
            > > > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com
            > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com]
            > > > > > On
            > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            > > > > > Sent:
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Thomas Clemens
            Larry, Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman s Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Larry,
              Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman's Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the campaign to end. His interest, and his rosters, apply to Antietam and reflect Sept. 17, not much else. His OOB for the 17th suggests McClellan had a lot of cavalry, but much of it joined him after marching from Washington, some as late as the 17th. In fact, my memory is that Lee had more cavalry than McClellan until the 17th of Sept. when some of the units escaping from Harpers Ferry joined the AoP. That disparity will have an impact on effectiveness of scouting and intelligence gathering.
              You probably already knew this, but just in case you didn't...


              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College


              >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 4:11 PM >>>
              I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
              going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
              work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
              idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
              that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
              discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
              13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

              I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
              write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
              cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
              have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
              (and of course vice-versa).

              Larry F.


              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
              >
              > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
              of the
              > AoNV than vice versa.
              >
              > Harry
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              >
              >
              >
              > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
              at
              > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
              > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
              >
              > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
              Campaign
              > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
              >
              > Larry F.
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
              > thing that
              > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
              > promptly offset
              > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
              > >
              > > Harry
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com] On
              > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
              > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
              > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
              thought
              > the
              > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
              that
              > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
              > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
              > surrender
              > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
              > Lee and
              > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
              > him.
              > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
              > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
              > >
              > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > Professor of History
              > > Hagerstown Community College
              > >
              > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
              > 40yahoo.com>
              > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
              > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
              troopers
              > at
              > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
              > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
              > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
              > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
              Hampton's
              > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
              > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
              > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
              > > >
              > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              > > >
              > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
              from
              > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
              > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
              > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
              > > > Heights
              > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
              to
              > > > dig
              > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
              > > > south
              > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
              > > >
              > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
              > > > >
              > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
              > > > > but
              > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
              > > > > not
              > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
              other
              > > > than
              > > > > for the 17th.
              > > > >
              > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
              > > > > until
              > > > > late January.
              > > > >
              > > > > Larry
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
              > > > > <clemenst@>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
              > > > Attacks!
              > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
              > > > > > was
              > > > > written
              > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > > > > Professor of History
              > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
              > > > > > Larry,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
              > > > > > book on
              > > > > > Harper's
              > > > > > Ferry > >
              > > > > > Harry
              > > > > >
              > > > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com
              > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com]
              > > > > > On
              > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > > > > > Sent:
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • eighth_conn_inf
              Jake, Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a great head start
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Jake,

                Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And
                thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a
                great head start on my paper.

                I have read that D.H. Hill did not write much about Antietam except
                what he did for B&L so I guess there is no use to get anything else
                by/about him? Obviously unpublished letters, etc., you mentioned
                might have some good stuff about his experiences with Stuart and R.E.
                Lee.

                Larry F.

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                >
                > Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection
                in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll
                be happy to get it for you.
                >
                > ---jgp
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                >
                > Jake,
                >
                > I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's
                remarks.
                >
                > Thank you,
                > Larry F.
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                > <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Larry:
                > >
                > > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                > sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death)
                regarding
                > cavalry in the camapign.
                > >
                > > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                > remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                > papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY
                issue,
                > I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                > Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                > interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                > afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                > Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                > >
                > > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving
                a
                > glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                > made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                > be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                > >
                > > --jake
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                > ____________ __
                > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category=
                shopping
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ______________________________________________________________________
                ______________
                > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.