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Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    I agree that neither side s cavalry did a great job scouting but I m going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I work on my next
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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      I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
      going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
      work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
      idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
      that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
      discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
      13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

      I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
      write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
      cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
      have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
      (and of course vice-versa).

      Larry F.


      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
      >
      > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
      of the
      > AoNV than vice versa.
      >
      > Harry
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
      >
      >
      >
      > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
      at
      > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
      > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
      >
      > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
      Campaign
      > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
      >
      > Larry F.
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
      > thing that
      > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
      > promptly offset
      > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
      > >
      > > Harry
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com] On
      > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
      > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
      thought
      > the
      > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
      that
      > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
      > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
      > surrender
      > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
      > Lee and
      > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
      > him.
      > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
      > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
      > >
      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > > Professor of History
      > > Hagerstown Community College
      > >
      > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
      > 40yahoo.com>
      > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
      > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
      troopers
      > at
      > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
      > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
      > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
      > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
      Hampton's
      > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
      > >
      > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
      > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
      > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
      > > >
      > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      > > >
      > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      from
      > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
      > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
      > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
      > > > Heights
      > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
      to
      > > > dig
      > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
      > > > south
      > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
      > > >
      > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
      > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
      > > > >
      > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
      > > > > but
      > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
      > > > > not
      > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
      other
      > > > than
      > > > > for the 17th.
      > > > >
      > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
      > > > > until
      > > > > late January.
      > > > >
      > > > > Larry
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
      > > > > <clemenst@>
      > > > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
      > > > Attacks!
      > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
      > > > > > was
      > > > > written
      > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > > > > > Professor of History
      > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
      > > > > > Larry,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
      > > > > > book on
      > > > > > Harper's
      > > > > > Ferry > >
      > > > > > Harry
      > > > > >
      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > yahoogroups.com
      > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > yahoogroups.com]
      > > > > > On
      > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      > > > > > Sent:
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Joseph Pierro
      Larry: You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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        Larry:

        You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the camapign.

        I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue, I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman, interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)

        There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should be able to direct you to anything worth examining.

        --jake


        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • eighth_conn_inf
        Jake, I ordered Bridge s book and will plan to check it for Hill s remarks. Thank you, Larry F. ... sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death)
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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          Jake,

          I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

          Thank you,
          Larry F.


          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
          <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
          >
          > Larry:
          >
          > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
          sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
          cavalry in the camapign.
          >
          > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
          remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
          papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
          I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
          Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
          interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
          afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
          Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
          >
          > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
          glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
          made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
          be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
          >
          > --jake
          >
          >
          >
          ______________________________________________________________________
          ______________
          > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
          > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
          http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Joseph Pierro
          Cool. If it turns out there s something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I ll be happy to get it for
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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            Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll be happy to get it for you.

            ---jgp


            ----- Original Message ----
            From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

            Jake,

            I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

            Thank you,
            Larry F.

            --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
            <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > Larry:
            >
            > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
            sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
            cavalry in the camapign.
            >
            > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
            remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
            papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
            I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
            Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
            interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
            afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
            Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
            >
            > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
            glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
            made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
            be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
            >
            > --jake
            >
            >
            >
            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            ____________ __
            > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
            > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
            http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
            http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Harry Smeltzer
            I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was unaware of the
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
              the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
              unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
              prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
              him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
              he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
              day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

              Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
              discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
              again:

              http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums
              <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0>
              &file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0

              Harry



              -----Original Message-----
              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



              I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
              going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
              work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
              idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
              that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
              discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
              13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

              I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
              write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
              cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
              have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
              (and of course vice-versa).

              Larry F.

              --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
              >
              > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
              of the
              > AoNV than vice versa.
              >
              > Harry
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
              > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              >
              >
              >
              > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
              at
              > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
              > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
              >
              > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
              Campaign
              > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
              >
              > Larry F.
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
              > thing that
              > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
              > promptly offset
              > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
              > >
              > > Harry
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com] On
              > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
              > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
              > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
              thought
              > the
              > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
              that
              > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
              > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
              > surrender
              > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
              > Lee and
              > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
              > him.
              > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
              > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
              > >
              > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > Professor of History
              > > Hagerstown Community College
              > >
              > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
              > 40yahoo.com>
              > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
              > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
              troopers
              > at
              > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
              > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
              > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
              > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
              Hampton's
              > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
              > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
              > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
              > > >
              > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              > > >
              > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
              from
              > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
              > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
              > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
              > > > Heights
              > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
              to
              > > > dig
              > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
              > > > south
              > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
              > > >
              > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
              > > > >
              > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
              > > > > but
              > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
              > > > > not
              > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
              other
              > > > than
              > > > > for the 17th.
              > > > >
              > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
              > > > > until
              > > > > late January.
              > > > >
              > > > > Larry
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
              > > > > <clemenst@>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
              > > > Attacks!
              > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
              > > > > > was
              > > > > written
              > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > > > > Professor of History
              > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
              > > > > > Larry,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
              > > > > > book on
              > > > > > Harper's
              > > > > > Ferry > >
              > > > > > Harry
              > > > > >
              > > > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com
              > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com]
              > > > > > On
              > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > > > > > Sent:
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Harry Smeltzer
              Larry, Hmm.looks like that link doesn t take you all the way to the discussion. Try this: Click
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Larry,

                Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the discussion.
                Try this:

                Click
                <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

                If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you get to
                the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for Stuart
                in the Maryland Campaign thread.

                Harry



                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                again:






                Harry

                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                (and of course vice-versa).

                Larry F.

                --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                >
                > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                of the
                > AoNV than vice versa.
                >
                > Harry
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                >
                >
                >
                > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                at
                > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                >
                > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                Campaign
                > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                >
                > Larry F.
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                > thing that
                > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                > promptly offset
                > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                > >
                > > Harry
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com] On
                > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                thought
                > the
                > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                that
                > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                > surrender
                > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                > Lee and
                > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                > him.
                > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                > >
                > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > Professor of History
                > > Hagerstown Community College
                > >
                > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                > 40yahoo.com>
                > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                troopers
                > at
                > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                Hampton's
                > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                > >
                > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                > > >
                > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                > > >
                > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                from
                > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                > > > Heights
                > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                to
                > > > dig
                > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                > > > south
                > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                > > >
                > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                > > > >
                > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                > > > > but
                > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                > > > > not
                > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                other
                > > > than
                > > > > for the 17th.
                > > > >
                > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                > > > > until
                > > > > late January.
                > > > >
                > > > > Larry
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                > > > > <clemenst@>
                > > > > wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                > > > Attacks!
                > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                > > > > > was
                > > > > written
                > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > > > > Professor of History
                > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                > > > > > Larry,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                > > > > > book on
                > > > > > Harper's
                > > > > > Ferry > >
                > > > > > Harry
                > > > > >
                > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > yahoogroups.com
                > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > yahoogroups.com]
                > > > > > On
                > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                > > > > > Sent:
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Thomas Clemens
                Larry, Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman s Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Larry,
                  Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman's Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the campaign to end. His interest, and his rosters, apply to Antietam and reflect Sept. 17, not much else. His OOB for the 17th suggests McClellan had a lot of cavalry, but much of it joined him after marching from Washington, some as late as the 17th. In fact, my memory is that Lee had more cavalry than McClellan until the 17th of Sept. when some of the units escaping from Harpers Ferry joined the AoP. That disparity will have an impact on effectiveness of scouting and intelligence gathering.
                  You probably already knew this, but just in case you didn't...


                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College


                  >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 4:11 PM >>>
                  I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                  going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                  work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                  idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                  that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                  discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                  13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                  I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                  write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                  cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                  have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                  (and of course vice-versa).

                  Larry F.


                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                  >
                  > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                  of the
                  > AoNV than vice versa.
                  >
                  > Harry
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                  at
                  > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                  > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                  >
                  > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                  Campaign
                  > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                  >
                  > Larry F.
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                  > thing that
                  > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                  > promptly offset
                  > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                  > >
                  > > Harry
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com] On
                  > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                  > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                  thought
                  > the
                  > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                  that
                  > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                  > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                  > surrender
                  > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                  > Lee and
                  > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                  > him.
                  > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                  > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                  > >
                  > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > Professor of History
                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > >
                  > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                  > 40yahoo.com>
                  > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                  > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                  troopers
                  > at
                  > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                  > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                  > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                  > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                  Hampton's
                  > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                  > >
                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                  > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                  > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                  > > >
                  > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  > > >
                  > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                  from
                  > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                  > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                  > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                  > > > Heights
                  > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                  to
                  > > > dig
                  > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                  > > > south
                  > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                  > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                  > > > > but
                  > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                  > > > > not
                  > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                  other
                  > > > than
                  > > > > for the 17th.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                  > > > > until
                  > > > > late January.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Larry
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                  > > > > <clemenst@>
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                  > > > Attacks!
                  > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                  > > > > > was
                  > > > > written
                  > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > > > > Professor of History
                  > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                  > > > > > Larry,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                  > > > > > book on
                  > > > > > Harper's
                  > > > > > Ferry > >
                  > > > > > Harry
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com]
                  > > > > > On
                  > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  > > > > > Sent:
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • eighth_conn_inf
                  Jake, Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a great head start
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jake,

                    Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And
                    thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a
                    great head start on my paper.

                    I have read that D.H. Hill did not write much about Antietam except
                    what he did for B&L so I guess there is no use to get anything else
                    by/about him? Obviously unpublished letters, etc., you mentioned
                    might have some good stuff about his experiences with Stuart and R.E.
                    Lee.

                    Larry F.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                    <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection
                    in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll
                    be happy to get it for you.
                    >
                    > ---jgp
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----
                    > From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                    >
                    > Jake,
                    >
                    > I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's
                    remarks.
                    >
                    > Thank you,
                    > Larry F.
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                    > <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Larry:
                    > >
                    > > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                    > sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death)
                    regarding
                    > cavalry in the camapign.
                    > >
                    > > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                    > remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                    > papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY
                    issue,
                    > I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                    > Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                    > interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                    > afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                    > Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                    > >
                    > > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving
                    a
                    > glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                    > made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                    > be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                    > >
                    > > --jake
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                    > ____________ __
                    > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                    > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                    > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category=
                    shopping
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ______________________________________________________________________
                    ______________
                    > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                    > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
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