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RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

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  • Harry Smeltzer
    I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset by
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that
      saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset
      by firing that damn howitzer again!

      Harry



      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



      After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
      real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
      day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
      McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
      reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
      galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
      Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
      Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.

      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College

      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%40yahoo.com>
      inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
      I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
      Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
      then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
      actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
      Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
      activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.

      --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
      > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
      > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
      >
      >
      > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
      > Heights
      > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
      > dig
      > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
      > south
      > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
      > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
      > >
      > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
      > > but
      > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
      > > not
      > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
      > than
      > > for the 17th.
      > >
      > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
      > > until
      > > late January.
      > >
      > > Larry
      > >
      > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
      > > <clemenst@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
      > Attacks!
      > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
      > > > was
      > > written
      > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > > > Professor of History
      > > > Hagerstown Community College
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
      > > > Larry,
      > > >
      > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
      > > > book on
      > > > Harper's
      > > > Ferry > >
      > > > Harry
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com]
      > > > On
      > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      > > > Sent:
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three occasions to the
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
        ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
        occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

        Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
        but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

        Larry F.


        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
        thing that
        > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
        promptly offset
        > by firing that damn howitzer again!
        >
        > Harry
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
        >
        >
        >
        > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
        the
        > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
        > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
        > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
        surrender
        > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
        Lee and
        > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
        him.
        > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
        > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
        >
        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College
        >
        > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
        40yahoo.com>
        > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
        > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
        at
        > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
        > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
        > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
        > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
        > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
        > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
        > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
        > >
        > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        > >
        > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
        > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
        > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
        > >
        > >
        > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
        > > Heights
        > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
        > > dig
        > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
        > > south
        > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
        > >
        > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
        > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
        > > >
        > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
        > > > but
        > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
        > > > not
        > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
        > > than
        > > > for the 17th.
        > > >
        > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
        > > > until
        > > > late January.
        > > >
        > > > Larry
        > > >
        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
        > > > <clemenst@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
        > > Attacks!
        > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
        > > > > was
        > > > written
        > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > > > > Professor of History
        > > > > Hagerstown Community College
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
        > > > > Larry,
        > > > >
        > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
        > > > > book on
        > > > > Harper's
        > > > > Ferry > >
        > > > > Harry
        > > > >
        > > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com
        > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com]
        > > > > On
        > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        > > > > Sent:
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Harry Smeltzer
        I d say that s damning him with slight praise. And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the AoNV than vice versa. Harry ... From:
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.

          And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the
          AoNV than vice versa.

          Harry

          -----Original Message-----
          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



          Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
          ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
          occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

          Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
          but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

          Larry F.

          --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
          thing that
          > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
          promptly offset
          > by firing that damn howitzer again!
          >
          > Harry
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
          > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          >
          >
          >
          > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
          the
          > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
          > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
          > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
          surrender
          > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
          Lee and
          > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
          him.
          > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
          > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >
          > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
          40yahoo.com>
          > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
          > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
          at
          > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
          > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
          > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
          > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
          > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
          > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
          > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
          > >
          > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          > >
          > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
          > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
          > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          > >
          > >
          > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
          > > Heights
          > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
          > > dig
          > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
          > > south
          > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
          > >
          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
          > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
          > > >
          > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
          > > > but
          > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
          > > > not
          > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
          > > than
          > > > for the 17th.
          > > >
          > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
          > > > until
          > > > late January.
          > > >
          > > > Larry
          > > >
          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
          > > > <clemenst@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
          > > Attacks!
          > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
          > > > > was
          > > > written
          > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > > > > Professor of History
          > > > > Hagerstown Community College
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
          > > > > Larry,
          > > > >
          > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
          > > > > book on
          > > > > Harper's
          > > > > Ferry > >
          > > > > Harry
          > > > >
          > > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com
          > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com]
          > > > > On
          > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          > > > > Sent:
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • eighth_conn_inf
          I agree that neither side s cavalry did a great job scouting but I m going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I work on my next
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
            going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
            work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
            idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
            that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
            discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
            13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

            I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
            write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
            cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
            have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
            (and of course vice-versa).

            Larry F.


            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
            >
            > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
            of the
            > AoNV than vice versa.
            >
            > Harry
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            >
            >
            >
            > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
            at
            > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
            > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
            >
            > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
            Campaign
            > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
            >
            > Larry F.
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
            > thing that
            > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
            > promptly offset
            > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
            > >
            > > Harry
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com] On
            > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
            > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
            > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
            thought
            > the
            > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
            that
            > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
            > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
            > surrender
            > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
            > Lee and
            > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
            > him.
            > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
            > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
            > >
            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > Professor of History
            > > Hagerstown Community College
            > >
            > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
            > 40yahoo.com>
            > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
            > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
            troopers
            > at
            > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
            > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
            > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
            > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
            Hampton's
            > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
            > >
            > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
            > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
            > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
            > > >
            > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            > > >
            > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
            from
            > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
            > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
            > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
            > > > Heights
            > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
            to
            > > > dig
            > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
            > > > south
            > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
            > > >
            > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
            > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
            > > > >
            > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
            > > > > but
            > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
            > > > > not
            > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
            other
            > > > than
            > > > > for the 17th.
            > > > >
            > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
            > > > > until
            > > > > late January.
            > > > >
            > > > > Larry
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
            > > > > <clemenst@>
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
            > > > Attacks!
            > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
            > > > > > was
            > > > > written
            > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > > > > Professor of History
            > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
            > > > > > Larry,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
            > > > > > book on
            > > > > > Harper's
            > > > > > Ferry > >
            > > > > > Harry
            > > > > >
            > > > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com
            > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > yahoogroups.com]
            > > > > > On
            > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            > > > > > Sent:
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Joseph Pierro
            Larry: You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Larry:

              You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the camapign.

              I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue, I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman, interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)

              There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should be able to direct you to anything worth examining.

              --jake


              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Looking for last minute shopping deals?
              Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • eighth_conn_inf
              Jake, I ordered Bridge s book and will plan to check it for Hill s remarks. Thank you, Larry F. ... sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death)
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Jake,

                I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                Thank you,
                Larry F.


                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                >
                > Larry:
                >
                > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                cavalry in the camapign.
                >
                > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                >
                > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                >
                > --jake
                >
                >
                >
                ______________________________________________________________________
                ______________
                > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Joseph Pierro
                Cool. If it turns out there s something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I ll be happy to get it for
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll be happy to get it for you.

                  ---jgp


                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                  Jake,

                  I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                  Thank you,
                  Larry F.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                  <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Larry:
                  >
                  > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                  sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                  cavalry in the camapign.
                  >
                  > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                  remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                  papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                  I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                  Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                  interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                  afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                  Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                  >
                  > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                  glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                  made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                  be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                  >
                  > --jake
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  ____________ __
                  > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                  > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                  http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                  http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Harry Smeltzer
                  I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was unaware of the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                    the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                    unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                    prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                    him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                    he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                    day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                    Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                    discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                    again:

                    http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums
                    <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0>
                    &file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0

                    Harry



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                    I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                    going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                    work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                    idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                    that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                    discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                    13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                    I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                    write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                    cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                    have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                    (and of course vice-versa).

                    Larry F.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                    >
                    > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                    of the
                    > AoNV than vice versa.
                    >
                    > Harry
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com] On
                    > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                    > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                    at
                    > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                    > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                    >
                    > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                    Campaign
                    > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                    >
                    > Larry F.
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                    > thing that
                    > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                    > promptly offset
                    > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                    > >
                    > > Harry
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com] On
                    > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                    > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                    thought
                    > the
                    > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                    that
                    > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                    > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                    > surrender
                    > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                    > Lee and
                    > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                    > him.
                    > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                    > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                    > >
                    > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > > Professor of History
                    > > Hagerstown Community College
                    > >
                    > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                    > 40yahoo.com>
                    > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                    > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                    troopers
                    > at
                    > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                    > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                    > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                    > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                    Hampton's
                    > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                    > >
                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                    > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                    > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                    > > >
                    > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    > > >
                    > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                    from
                    > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                    > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                    > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                    > > > Heights
                    > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                    to
                    > > > dig
                    > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                    > > > south
                    > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                    > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                    > > > > but
                    > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                    > > > > not
                    > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                    other
                    > > > than
                    > > > > for the 17th.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                    > > > > until
                    > > > > late January.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Larry
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                    > > > > <clemenst@>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                    > > > Attacks!
                    > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                    > > > > > was
                    > > > > written
                    > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > > > > > Professor of History
                    > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                    > > > > > Larry,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                    > > > > > book on
                    > > > > > Harper's
                    > > > > > Ferry > >
                    > > > > > Harry
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > yahoogroups.com]
                    > > > > > On
                    > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    > > > > > Sent:
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Harry Smeltzer
                    Larry, Hmm.looks like that link doesn t take you all the way to the discussion. Try this: Click
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Larry,

                      Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the discussion.
                      Try this:

                      Click
                      <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                      file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

                      If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you get to
                      the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for Stuart
                      in the Maryland Campaign thread.

                      Harry



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                      I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                      the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                      unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                      prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                      him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                      he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                      day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                      Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                      discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                      again:






                      Harry

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                      I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                      going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                      work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                      idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                      that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                      discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                      13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                      I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                      write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                      cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                      have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                      (and of course vice-versa).

                      Larry F.

                      --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                      >
                      > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                      of the
                      > AoNV than vice versa.
                      >
                      > Harry
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                      > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                      at
                      > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                      > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                      >
                      > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                      Campaign
                      > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                      >
                      > Larry F.
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                      > thing that
                      > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                      > promptly offset
                      > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                      > >
                      > > Harry
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com] On
                      > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                      > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                      thought
                      > the
                      > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                      that
                      > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                      > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                      > surrender
                      > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                      > Lee and
                      > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                      > him.
                      > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                      > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                      > >
                      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > Professor of History
                      > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > >
                      > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                      > 40yahoo.com>
                      > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                      > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                      troopers
                      > at
                      > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                      > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                      > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                      > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                      Hampton's
                      > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                      > >
                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                      > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                      > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                      > > >
                      > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      > > >
                      > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                      from
                      > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                      > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                      > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                      > > > Heights
                      > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                      to
                      > > > dig
                      > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                      > > > south
                      > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                      > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                      > > > > but
                      > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                      > > > > not
                      > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                      other
                      > > > than
                      > > > > for the 17th.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                      > > > > until
                      > > > > late January.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Larry
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                      > > > > <clemenst@>
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                      > > > Attacks!
                      > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                      > > > > > was
                      > > > > written
                      > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > > > > Professor of History
                      > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                      > > > > > Larry,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                      > > > > > book on
                      > > > > > Harper's
                      > > > > > Ferry > >
                      > > > > > Harry
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com]
                      > > > > > On
                      > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      > > > > > Sent:
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Thomas Clemens
                      Larry, Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman s Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
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                        Larry,
                        Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman's Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the campaign to end. His interest, and his rosters, apply to Antietam and reflect Sept. 17, not much else. His OOB for the 17th suggests McClellan had a lot of cavalry, but much of it joined him after marching from Washington, some as late as the 17th. In fact, my memory is that Lee had more cavalry than McClellan until the 17th of Sept. when some of the units escaping from Harpers Ferry joined the AoP. That disparity will have an impact on effectiveness of scouting and intelligence gathering.
                        You probably already knew this, but just in case you didn't...


                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        Professor of History
                        Hagerstown Community College


                        >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 4:11 PM >>>
                        I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                        going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                        work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                        idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                        that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                        discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                        13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                        I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                        write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                        cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                        have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                        (and of course vice-versa).

                        Larry F.


                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                        >
                        > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                        of the
                        > AoNV than vice versa.
                        >
                        > Harry
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                        at
                        > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                        > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                        >
                        > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                        Campaign
                        > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                        >
                        > Larry F.
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                        > thing that
                        > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                        > promptly offset
                        > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                        > >
                        > > Harry
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com] On
                        > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                        > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                        thought
                        > the
                        > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                        that
                        > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                        > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                        > surrender
                        > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                        > Lee and
                        > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                        > him.
                        > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                        > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                        > >
                        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > Professor of History
                        > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > >
                        > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                        > 40yahoo.com>
                        > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                        > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                        troopers
                        > at
                        > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                        > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                        > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                        > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                        Hampton's
                        > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                        > >
                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                        > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                        > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                        > > >
                        > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        > > >
                        > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                        from
                        > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                        > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                        > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                        > > > Heights
                        > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                        to
                        > > > dig
                        > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                        > > > south
                        > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                        > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                        > > > > but
                        > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                        > > > > not
                        > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                        other
                        > > > than
                        > > > > for the 17th.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                        > > > > until
                        > > > > late January.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Larry
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                        > > > > <clemenst@>
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                        > > > Attacks!
                        > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                        > > > > > was
                        > > > > written
                        > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > > > > Professor of History
                        > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                        > > > > > Larry,
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                        > > > > > book on
                        > > > > > Harper's
                        > > > > > Ferry > >
                        > > > > > Harry
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com]
                        > > > > > On
                        > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        > > > > > Sent:
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • eighth_conn_inf
                        Jake, Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a great head start
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
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                          Jake,

                          Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And
                          thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a
                          great head start on my paper.

                          I have read that D.H. Hill did not write much about Antietam except
                          what he did for B&L so I guess there is no use to get anything else
                          by/about him? Obviously unpublished letters, etc., you mentioned
                          might have some good stuff about his experiences with Stuart and R.E.
                          Lee.

                          Larry F.

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                          <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection
                          in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll
                          be happy to get it for you.
                          >
                          > ---jgp
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message ----
                          > From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          >
                          > Jake,
                          >
                          > I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's
                          remarks.
                          >
                          > Thank you,
                          > Larry F.
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                          > <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Larry:
                          > >
                          > > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                          > sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death)
                          regarding
                          > cavalry in the camapign.
                          > >
                          > > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                          > remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                          > papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY
                          issue,
                          > I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                          > Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                          > interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                          > afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                          > Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                          > >
                          > > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving
                          a
                          > glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                          > made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                          > be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                          > >
                          > > --jake
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
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                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                          >
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                          >
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