Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

Expand Messages
  • Thomas Clemens
    After leaving Crampton s Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that day, he was wrong.
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
      real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
      day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
      McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
      reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
      galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
      Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
      Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.


      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
      I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
      Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
      then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
      actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
      Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
      activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
      > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
      > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
      >
      >
      > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
      > Heights
      > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
      > dig
      > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
      > south
      > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
      > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
      > >
      > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
      > > but
      > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
      > > not
      > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
      > than
      > > for the 17th.
      > >
      > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
      > > until
      > > late January.
      > >
      > > Larry
      > >
      > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
      > > <clemenst@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
      > Attacks!
      > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
      > > > was
      > > written
      > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > > > Professor of History
      > > > Hagerstown Community College
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
      > > > Larry,
      > > >
      > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
      > > > book on
      > > > Harper's
      > > > Ferry > >
      > > > Harry
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
      > > > On
      > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      > > > Sent:
      >
    • Harry Smeltzer
      I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset by
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that
        saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset
        by firing that damn howitzer again!

        Harry



        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
        Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



        After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
        real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
        day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
        McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
        reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
        galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
        Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
        Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.

        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College

        >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%40yahoo.com>
        inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
        I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
        Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
        then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
        actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
        Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
        activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.

        --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
        > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
        > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
        >
        >
        > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
        > Heights
        > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
        > dig
        > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
        > south
        > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
        > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
        > >
        > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
        > > but
        > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
        > > not
        > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
        > than
        > > for the 17th.
        > >
        > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
        > > until
        > > late January.
        > >
        > > Larry
        > >
        > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
        > > <clemenst@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
        > Attacks!
        > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
        > > > was
        > > written
        > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > > > Professor of History
        > > > Hagerstown Community College
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
        > > > Larry,
        > > >
        > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
        > > > book on
        > > > Harper's
        > > > Ferry > >
        > > > Harry
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com
        > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com]
        > > > On
        > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        > > > Sent:
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • eighth_conn_inf
        Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three occasions to the
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
          ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
          occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

          Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
          but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

          Larry F.


          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
          thing that
          > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
          promptly offset
          > by firing that damn howitzer again!
          >
          > Harry
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          >
          >
          >
          > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
          the
          > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
          > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
          > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
          surrender
          > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
          Lee and
          > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
          him.
          > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
          > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >
          > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
          40yahoo.com>
          > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
          > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
          at
          > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
          > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
          > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
          > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
          > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
          > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
          > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
          > >
          > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          > >
          > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
          > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
          > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          > >
          > >
          > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
          > > Heights
          > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
          > > dig
          > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
          > > south
          > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
          > >
          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
          > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
          > > >
          > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
          > > > but
          > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
          > > > not
          > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
          > > than
          > > > for the 17th.
          > > >
          > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
          > > > until
          > > > late January.
          > > >
          > > > Larry
          > > >
          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
          > > > <clemenst@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
          > > Attacks!
          > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
          > > > > was
          > > > written
          > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > > > > Professor of History
          > > > > Hagerstown Community College
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
          > > > > Larry,
          > > > >
          > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
          > > > > book on
          > > > > Harper's
          > > > > Ferry > >
          > > > > Harry
          > > > >
          > > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com
          > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com]
          > > > > On
          > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          > > > > Sent:
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Harry Smeltzer
          I d say that s damning him with slight praise. And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the AoNV than vice versa. Harry ... From:
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.

            And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the
            AoNV than vice versa.

            Harry

            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



            Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
            ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
            occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

            Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
            but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

            Larry F.

            --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
            thing that
            > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
            promptly offset
            > by firing that damn howitzer again!
            >
            > Harry
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
            > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
            > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            >
            >
            >
            > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
            the
            > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
            > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
            > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
            surrender
            > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
            Lee and
            > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
            him.
            > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
            > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
            >
            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
            >
            > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
            40yahoo.com>
            > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
            > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
            at
            > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
            > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
            > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
            > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
            > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
            > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
            > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
            > >
            > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            > >
            > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
            > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
            > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            > >
            > >
            > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
            > > Heights
            > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
            > > dig
            > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
            > > south
            > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
            > >
            > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
            > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
            > > >
            > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
            > > > but
            > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
            > > > not
            > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
            > > than
            > > > for the 17th.
            > > >
            > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
            > > > until
            > > > late January.
            > > >
            > > > Larry
            > > >
            > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
            > > > <clemenst@>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
            > > Attacks!
            > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
            > > > > was
            > > > written
            > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > > > Professor of History
            > > > > Hagerstown Community College
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
            > > > > Larry,
            > > > >
            > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
            > > > > book on
            > > > > Harper's
            > > > > Ferry > >
            > > > > Harry
            > > > >
            > > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com]
            > > > > On
            > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            > > > > Sent:
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eighth_conn_inf
            I agree that neither side s cavalry did a great job scouting but I m going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I work on my next
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
              going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
              work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
              idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
              that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
              discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
              13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

              I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
              write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
              cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
              have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
              (and of course vice-versa).

              Larry F.


              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
              >
              > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
              of the
              > AoNV than vice versa.
              >
              > Harry
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              >
              >
              >
              > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
              at
              > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
              > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
              >
              > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
              Campaign
              > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
              >
              > Larry F.
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
              > thing that
              > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
              > promptly offset
              > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
              > >
              > > Harry
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com] On
              > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
              > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
              > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
              thought
              > the
              > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
              that
              > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
              > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
              > surrender
              > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
              > Lee and
              > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
              > him.
              > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
              > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
              > >
              > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > Professor of History
              > > Hagerstown Community College
              > >
              > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
              > 40yahoo.com>
              > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
              > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
              troopers
              > at
              > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
              > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
              > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
              > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
              Hampton's
              > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
              > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
              > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
              > > >
              > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              > > >
              > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
              from
              > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
              > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
              > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
              > > > Heights
              > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
              to
              > > > dig
              > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
              > > > south
              > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
              > > >
              > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
              > > > >
              > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
              > > > > but
              > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
              > > > > not
              > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
              other
              > > > than
              > > > > for the 17th.
              > > > >
              > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
              > > > > until
              > > > > late January.
              > > > >
              > > > > Larry
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
              > > > > <clemenst@>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
              > > > Attacks!
              > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
              > > > > > was
              > > > > written
              > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > > > > Professor of History
              > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
              > > > > > Larry,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
              > > > > > book on
              > > > > > Harper's
              > > > > > Ferry > >
              > > > > > Harry
              > > > > >
              > > > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com
              > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > yahoogroups.com]
              > > > > > On
              > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > > > > > Sent:
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Joseph Pierro
              Larry: You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Larry:

                You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the camapign.

                I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue, I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman, interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)

                There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should be able to direct you to anything worth examining.

                --jake


                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Jake, I ordered Bridge s book and will plan to check it for Hill s remarks. Thank you, Larry F. ... sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death)
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Jake,

                  I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                  Thank you,
                  Larry F.


                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                  <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Larry:
                  >
                  > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                  sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                  cavalry in the camapign.
                  >
                  > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                  remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                  papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                  I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                  Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                  interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                  afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                  Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                  >
                  > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                  glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                  made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                  be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                  >
                  > --jake
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ______________________________________________________________________
                  ______________
                  > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                  > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Joseph Pierro
                  Cool. If it turns out there s something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I ll be happy to get it for
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll be happy to get it for you.

                    ---jgp


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                    Jake,

                    I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                    Thank you,
                    Larry F.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                    <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Larry:
                    >
                    > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                    sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                    cavalry in the camapign.
                    >
                    > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                    remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                    papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                    I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                    Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                    interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                    afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                    Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                    >
                    > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                    glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                    made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                    be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                    >
                    > --jake
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                    ____________ __
                    > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                    > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                    http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >





                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                    http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Harry Smeltzer
                    I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was unaware of the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                      the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                      unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                      prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                      him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                      he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                      day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                      Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                      discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                      again:

                      http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums
                      <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0>
                      &file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0

                      Harry



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                      I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                      going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                      work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                      idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                      that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                      discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                      13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                      I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                      write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                      cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                      have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                      (and of course vice-versa).

                      Larry F.

                      --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                      >
                      > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                      of the
                      > AoNV than vice versa.
                      >
                      > Harry
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                      > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                      at
                      > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                      > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                      >
                      > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                      Campaign
                      > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                      >
                      > Larry F.
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                      > thing that
                      > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                      > promptly offset
                      > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                      > >
                      > > Harry
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com] On
                      > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                      > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                      thought
                      > the
                      > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                      that
                      > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                      > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                      > surrender
                      > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                      > Lee and
                      > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                      > him.
                      > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                      > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                      > >
                      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > Professor of History
                      > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > >
                      > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                      > 40yahoo.com>
                      > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                      > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                      troopers
                      > at
                      > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                      > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                      > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                      > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                      Hampton's
                      > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                      > >
                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                      > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                      > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                      > > >
                      > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      > > >
                      > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                      from
                      > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                      > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                      > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                      > > > Heights
                      > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                      to
                      > > > dig
                      > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                      > > > south
                      > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                      > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                      > > > > but
                      > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                      > > > > not
                      > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                      other
                      > > > than
                      > > > > for the 17th.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                      > > > > until
                      > > > > late January.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Larry
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                      > > > > <clemenst@>
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                      > > > Attacks!
                      > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                      > > > > > was
                      > > > > written
                      > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > > > > Professor of History
                      > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                      > > > > > Larry,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                      > > > > > book on
                      > > > > > Harper's
                      > > > > > Ferry > >
                      > > > > > Harry
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com]
                      > > > > > On
                      > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      > > > > > Sent:
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Harry Smeltzer
                      Larry, Hmm.looks like that link doesn t take you all the way to the discussion. Try this: Click
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Larry,

                        Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the discussion.
                        Try this:

                        Click
                        <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                        file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

                        If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you get to
                        the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for Stuart
                        in the Maryland Campaign thread.

                        Harry



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                        I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                        the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                        unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                        prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                        him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                        he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                        day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                        Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                        discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                        again:






                        Harry

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                        To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                        I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                        going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                        work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                        idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                        that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                        discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                        13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                        I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                        write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                        cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                        have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                        (and of course vice-versa).

                        Larry F.

                        --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                        >
                        > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                        of the
                        > AoNV than vice versa.
                        >
                        > Harry
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                        > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                        at
                        > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                        > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                        >
                        > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                        Campaign
                        > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                        >
                        > Larry F.
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                        > thing that
                        > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                        > promptly offset
                        > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                        > >
                        > > Harry
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com] On
                        > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                        > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                        thought
                        > the
                        > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                        that
                        > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                        > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                        > surrender
                        > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                        > Lee and
                        > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                        > him.
                        > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                        > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                        > >
                        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > Professor of History
                        > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > >
                        > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                        > 40yahoo.com>
                        > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                        > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                        troopers
                        > at
                        > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                        > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                        > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                        > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                        Hampton's
                        > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                        > >
                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                        > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                        > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                        > > >
                        > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        > > >
                        > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                        from
                        > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                        > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                        > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                        > > > Heights
                        > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                        to
                        > > > dig
                        > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                        > > > south
                        > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                        > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                        > > > > but
                        > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                        > > > > not
                        > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                        other
                        > > > than
                        > > > > for the 17th.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                        > > > > until
                        > > > > late January.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Larry
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                        > > > > <clemenst@>
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                        > > > Attacks!
                        > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                        > > > > > was
                        > > > > written
                        > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > > > > Professor of History
                        > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                        > > > > > Larry,
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                        > > > > > book on
                        > > > > > Harper's
                        > > > > > Ferry > >
                        > > > > > Harry
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com]
                        > > > > > On
                        > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        > > > > > Sent:
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Thomas Clemens
                        Larry, Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman s Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Larry,
                          Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman's Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the campaign to end. His interest, and his rosters, apply to Antietam and reflect Sept. 17, not much else. His OOB for the 17th suggests McClellan had a lot of cavalry, but much of it joined him after marching from Washington, some as late as the 17th. In fact, my memory is that Lee had more cavalry than McClellan until the 17th of Sept. when some of the units escaping from Harpers Ferry joined the AoP. That disparity will have an impact on effectiveness of scouting and intelligence gathering.
                          You probably already knew this, but just in case you didn't...


                          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          Professor of History
                          Hagerstown Community College


                          >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 4:11 PM >>>
                          I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                          going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                          work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                          idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                          that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                          discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                          13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                          I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                          write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                          cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                          have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                          (and of course vice-versa).

                          Larry F.


                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                          >
                          > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                          of the
                          > AoNV than vice versa.
                          >
                          > Harry
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                          at
                          > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                          > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                          >
                          > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                          Campaign
                          > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                          >
                          > Larry F.
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                          > thing that
                          > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                          > promptly offset
                          > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                          > >
                          > > Harry
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com] On
                          > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                          > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                          thought
                          > the
                          > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                          that
                          > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                          > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                          > surrender
                          > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                          > Lee and
                          > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                          > him.
                          > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                          > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                          > >
                          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > Professor of History
                          > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > >
                          > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                          > 40yahoo.com>
                          > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                          > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                          troopers
                          > at
                          > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                          > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                          > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                          > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                          Hampton's
                          > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                          > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                          > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                          > > >
                          > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          > > >
                          > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                          from
                          > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                          > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                          > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                          > > > Heights
                          > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                          to
                          > > > dig
                          > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                          > > > south
                          > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                          > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                          > > > > but
                          > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                          > > > > not
                          > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                          other
                          > > > than
                          > > > > for the 17th.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                          > > > > until
                          > > > > late January.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Larry
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          > > > > <clemenst@>
                          > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                          > > > Attacks!
                          > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                          > > > > > was
                          > > > > written
                          > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > > > > Professor of History
                          > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                          > > > > > Larry,
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                          > > > > > book on
                          > > > > > Harper's
                          > > > > > Ferry > >
                          > > > > > Harry
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com]
                          > > > > > On
                          > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                          > > > > > Sent:
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • eighth_conn_inf
                          Jake, Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a great head start
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jake,

                            Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And
                            thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a
                            great head start on my paper.

                            I have read that D.H. Hill did not write much about Antietam except
                            what he did for B&L so I guess there is no use to get anything else
                            by/about him? Obviously unpublished letters, etc., you mentioned
                            might have some good stuff about his experiences with Stuart and R.E.
                            Lee.

                            Larry F.

                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                            <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection
                            in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll
                            be happy to get it for you.
                            >
                            > ---jgp
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message ----
                            > From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                            >
                            > Jake,
                            >
                            > I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's
                            remarks.
                            >
                            > Thank you,
                            > Larry F.
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                            > <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Larry:
                            > >
                            > > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                            > sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death)
                            regarding
                            > cavalry in the camapign.
                            > >
                            > > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                            > remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                            > papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY
                            issue,
                            > I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                            > Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                            > interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                            > afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                            > Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                            > >
                            > > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving
                            a
                            > glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                            > made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                            > be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                            > >
                            > > --jake
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                            > ____________ __
                            > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                            > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                            > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category=
                            shopping
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            ______________________________________________________________________
                            ______________
                            > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                            > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.