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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

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  • G E Mayers
    Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox s Gap but then left...one of the reasons D H Hill had
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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      Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
      14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
      of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights


      My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
      Heights
      but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
      dig
      out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
      south
      from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
      <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
      >
      > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
      >
      > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
      > but
      > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
      > not
      > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
      than
      > for the 17th.
      >
      > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
      > until
      > late January.
      >
      > Larry
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
      > <clemenst@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
      Attacks!
      > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
      > > was
      > written
      > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
      > >
      > >
      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > > Professor of History
      > > Hagerstown Community College
      > >
      > >
      > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
      > > Larry,
      > >
      > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
      > > book on
      > > Harper's
      > > Ferry > >
      > > Harry
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
      > > On
      > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      > > Sent:
    • eighth_conn_inf
      I think after he rode south from Turner s and posted some troopers at Fox s he went to Crampton s Gap leaving more men--but not enough, then to McLaws. I m not
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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        I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
        Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
        then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
        actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
        Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
        activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
        > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
        > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
        >
        >
        > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
        > Heights
        > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
        > dig
        > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
        > south
        > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
        > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
        > >
        > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
        > > but
        > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
        > > not
        > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
        > than
        > > for the 17th.
        > >
        > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
        > > until
        > > late January.
        > >
        > > Larry
        > >
        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
        > > <clemenst@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
        > Attacks!
        > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
        > > > was
        > > written
        > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > > > Professor of History
        > > > Hagerstown Community College
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
        > > > Larry,
        > > >
        > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
        > > > book on
        > > > Harper's
        > > > Ferry > >
        > > > Harry
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
        > > > On
        > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        > > > Sent:
        >
      • Thomas Clemens
        After leaving Crampton s Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that day, he was wrong.
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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          After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
          real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
          day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
          McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
          reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
          galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
          Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
          Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.


          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
          I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
          Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
          then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
          actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
          Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
          activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
          > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
          > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          >
          >
          > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
          > Heights
          > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
          > dig
          > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
          > south
          > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
          > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
          > >
          > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
          > > but
          > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
          > > not
          > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
          > than
          > > for the 17th.
          > >
          > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
          > > until
          > > late January.
          > >
          > > Larry
          > >
          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
          > > <clemenst@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
          > Attacks!
          > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
          > > > was
          > > written
          > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > > > Professor of History
          > > > Hagerstown Community College
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
          > > > Larry,
          > > >
          > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
          > > > book on
          > > > Harper's
          > > > Ferry > >
          > > > Harry
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
          > > > On
          > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          > > > Sent:
          >
        • Harry Smeltzer
          I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset by
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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            I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that
            saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset
            by firing that damn howitzer again!

            Harry



            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
            Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



            After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
            real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
            day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
            McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
            reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
            galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
            Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
            Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College

            >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%40yahoo.com>
            inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
            I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
            Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
            then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
            actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
            Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
            activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.

            --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
            > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
            > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            >
            >
            > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
            > Heights
            > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
            > dig
            > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
            > south
            > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
            > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
            > >
            > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
            > > but
            > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
            > > not
            > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
            > than
            > > for the 17th.
            > >
            > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
            > > until
            > > late January.
            > >
            > > Larry
            > >
            > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
            > > <clemenst@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
            > Attacks!
            > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
            > > > was
            > > written
            > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > > Professor of History
            > > > Hagerstown Community College
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
            > > > Larry,
            > > >
            > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
            > > > book on
            > > > Harper's
            > > > Ferry > >
            > > > Harry
            > > >
            > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com
            > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com]
            > > > On
            > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            > > > Sent:
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three occasions to the
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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              Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
              ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
              occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

              Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
              but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

              Larry F.


              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
              thing that
              > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
              promptly offset
              > by firing that damn howitzer again!
              >
              > Harry
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              >
              >
              >
              > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
              the
              > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
              > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
              > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
              surrender
              > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
              Lee and
              > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
              him.
              > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
              > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
              >
              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >
              > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
              40yahoo.com>
              > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
              > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
              at
              > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
              > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
              > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
              > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
              > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
              > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
              > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
              > >
              > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              > >
              > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
              > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
              > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              > >
              > >
              > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
              > > Heights
              > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
              > > dig
              > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
              > > south
              > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
              > > >
              > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
              > > > but
              > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
              > > > not
              > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
              > > than
              > > > for the 17th.
              > > >
              > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
              > > > until
              > > > late January.
              > > >
              > > > Larry
              > > >
              > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
              > > > <clemenst@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
              > > Attacks!
              > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
              > > > > was
              > > > written
              > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > > > Professor of History
              > > > > Hagerstown Community College
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
              > > > > Larry,
              > > > >
              > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
              > > > > book on
              > > > > Harper's
              > > > > Ferry > >
              > > > > Harry
              > > > >
              > > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com
              > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com]
              > > > > On
              > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > > > > Sent:
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Harry Smeltzer
              I d say that s damning him with slight praise. And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the AoNV than vice versa. Harry ... From:
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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                I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.

                And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the
                AoNV than vice versa.

                Harry

                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
                ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

                Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
                but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

                Larry F.

                --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                thing that
                > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                promptly offset
                > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                >
                > Harry
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                >
                >
                >
                > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
                the
                > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                surrender
                > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                Lee and
                > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                him.
                > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                40yahoo.com>
                > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
                at
                > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                > >
                > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                > >
                > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                > >
                > >
                > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                > > Heights
                > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                > > dig
                > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                > > south
                > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                > >
                > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                > > >
                > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                > > > but
                > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                > > > not
                > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                > > than
                > > > for the 17th.
                > > >
                > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                > > > until
                > > > late January.
                > > >
                > > > Larry
                > > >
                > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                > > > <clemenst@>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                > > Attacks!
                > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                > > > > was
                > > > written
                > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > > > Professor of History
                > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                > > > > Larry,
                > > > >
                > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                > > > > book on
                > > > > Harper's
                > > > > Ferry > >
                > > > > Harry
                > > > >
                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com
                > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com]
                > > > > On
                > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                > > > > Sent:
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • eighth_conn_inf
                I agree that neither side s cavalry did a great job scouting but I m going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I work on my next
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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                  I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                  going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                  work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                  idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                  that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                  discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                  13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                  I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                  write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                  cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                  have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                  (and of course vice-versa).

                  Larry F.


                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                  >
                  > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                  of the
                  > AoNV than vice versa.
                  >
                  > Harry
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                  at
                  > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                  > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                  >
                  > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                  Campaign
                  > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                  >
                  > Larry F.
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                  > thing that
                  > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                  > promptly offset
                  > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                  > >
                  > > Harry
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com] On
                  > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                  > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                  thought
                  > the
                  > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                  that
                  > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                  > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                  > surrender
                  > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                  > Lee and
                  > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                  > him.
                  > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                  > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                  > >
                  > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > Professor of History
                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > >
                  > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                  > 40yahoo.com>
                  > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                  > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                  troopers
                  > at
                  > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                  > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                  > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                  > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                  Hampton's
                  > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                  > >
                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                  > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                  > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                  > > >
                  > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  > > >
                  > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                  from
                  > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                  > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                  > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                  > > > Heights
                  > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                  to
                  > > > dig
                  > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                  > > > south
                  > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                  > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                  > > > > but
                  > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                  > > > > not
                  > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                  other
                  > > > than
                  > > > > for the 17th.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                  > > > > until
                  > > > > late January.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Larry
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                  > > > > <clemenst@>
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                  > > > Attacks!
                  > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                  > > > > > was
                  > > > > written
                  > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > > > > Professor of History
                  > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                  > > > > > Larry,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                  > > > > > book on
                  > > > > > Harper's
                  > > > > > Ferry > >
                  > > > > > Harry
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > yahoogroups.com]
                  > > > > > On
                  > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  > > > > > Sent:
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Joseph Pierro
                  Larry: You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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                    Larry:

                    You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the camapign.

                    I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue, I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman, interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)

                    There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should be able to direct you to anything worth examining.

                    --jake


                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                    Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • eighth_conn_inf
                    Jake, I ordered Bridge s book and will plan to check it for Hill s remarks. Thank you, Larry F. ... sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death)
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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                      Jake,

                      I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                      Thank you,
                      Larry F.


                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                      <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Larry:
                      >
                      > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                      sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                      cavalry in the camapign.
                      >
                      > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                      remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                      papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                      I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                      Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                      interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                      afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                      Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                      >
                      > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                      glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                      made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                      be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                      >
                      > --jake
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ______________________________________________________________________
                      ______________
                      > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                      > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                      http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Joseph Pierro
                      Cool. If it turns out there s something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I ll be happy to get it for
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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                        Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll be happy to get it for you.

                        ---jgp


                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                        Jake,

                        I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                        Thank you,
                        Larry F.

                        --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                        <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Larry:
                        >
                        > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                        sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                        cavalry in the camapign.
                        >
                        > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                        remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                        papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                        I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                        Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                        interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                        afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                        Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                        >
                        > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                        glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                        made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                        be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                        >
                        > --jake
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                        ____________ __
                        > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                        > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                        http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >





                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Harry Smeltzer
                        I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was unaware of the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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                          I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                          the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                          unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                          prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                          him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                          he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                          day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                          Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                          discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                          again:

                          http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums
                          <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0>
                          &file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0

                          Harry



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                          I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                          going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                          work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                          idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                          that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                          discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                          13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                          I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                          write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                          cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                          have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                          (and of course vice-versa).

                          Larry F.

                          --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                          >
                          > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                          of the
                          > AoNV than vice versa.
                          >
                          > Harry
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com] On
                          > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                          > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                          at
                          > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                          > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                          >
                          > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                          Campaign
                          > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                          >
                          > Larry F.
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                          > thing that
                          > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                          > promptly offset
                          > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                          > >
                          > > Harry
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com] On
                          > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                          > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                          thought
                          > the
                          > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                          that
                          > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                          > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                          > surrender
                          > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                          > Lee and
                          > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                          > him.
                          > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                          > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                          > >
                          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > Professor of History
                          > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > >
                          > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                          > 40yahoo.com>
                          > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                          > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                          troopers
                          > at
                          > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                          > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                          > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                          > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                          Hampton's
                          > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                          > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                          > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                          > > >
                          > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          > > >
                          > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                          from
                          > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                          > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                          > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                          > > > Heights
                          > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                          to
                          > > > dig
                          > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                          > > > south
                          > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                          > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                          > > > > but
                          > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                          > > > > not
                          > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                          other
                          > > > than
                          > > > > for the 17th.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                          > > > > until
                          > > > > late January.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Larry
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          > > > > <clemenst@>
                          > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                          > > > Attacks!
                          > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                          > > > > > was
                          > > > > written
                          > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > > > > Professor of History
                          > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                          > > > > > Larry,
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                          > > > > > book on
                          > > > > > Harper's
                          > > > > > Ferry > >
                          > > > > > Harry
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com]
                          > > > > > On
                          > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                          > > > > > Sent:
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Harry Smeltzer
                          Larry, Hmm.looks like that link doesn t take you all the way to the discussion. Try this: Click
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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                            Larry,

                            Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the discussion.
                            Try this:

                            Click
                            <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                            file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

                            If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you get to
                            the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for Stuart
                            in the Maryland Campaign thread.

                            Harry



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                            I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                            the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                            unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                            prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                            him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                            he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                            day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                            Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                            discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                            again:






                            Harry

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                            To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                            I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                            going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                            work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                            idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                            that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                            discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                            13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                            I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                            write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                            cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                            have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                            (and of course vice-versa).

                            Larry F.

                            --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                            >
                            > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                            of the
                            > AoNV than vice versa.
                            >
                            > Harry
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                            > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                            > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                            at
                            > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                            > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                            >
                            > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                            Campaign
                            > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                            >
                            > Larry F.
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                            > thing that
                            > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                            > promptly offset
                            > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                            > >
                            > > Harry
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com] On
                            > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                            > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                            > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                            thought
                            > the
                            > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                            that
                            > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                            > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                            > surrender
                            > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                            > Lee and
                            > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                            > him.
                            > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                            > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                            > >
                            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            > > Professor of History
                            > > Hagerstown Community College
                            > >
                            > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                            > 40yahoo.com>
                            > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                            > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                            troopers
                            > at
                            > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                            > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                            > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                            > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                            Hampton's
                            > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                            > >
                            > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                            > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                            > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                            > > >
                            > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            > > >
                            > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                            from
                            > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                            > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                            > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                            > > > Heights
                            > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                            to
                            > > > dig
                            > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                            > > > south
                            > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                            > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                            > > > > but
                            > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                            > > > > not
                            > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                            other
                            > > > than
                            > > > > for the 17th.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                            > > > > until
                            > > > > late January.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Larry
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                            > > > > <clemenst@>
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                            > > > Attacks!
                            > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                            > > > > > was
                            > > > > written
                            > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            > > > > > Professor of History
                            > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                            > > > > > Larry,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                            > > > > > book on
                            > > > > > Harper's
                            > > > > > Ferry > >
                            > > > > > Harry
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com]
                            > > > > > On
                            > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                            > > > > > Sent:
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Thomas Clemens
                            Larry, Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman s Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
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                              Larry,
                              Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman's Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the campaign to end. His interest, and his rosters, apply to Antietam and reflect Sept. 17, not much else. His OOB for the 17th suggests McClellan had a lot of cavalry, but much of it joined him after marching from Washington, some as late as the 17th. In fact, my memory is that Lee had more cavalry than McClellan until the 17th of Sept. when some of the units escaping from Harpers Ferry joined the AoP. That disparity will have an impact on effectiveness of scouting and intelligence gathering.
                              You probably already knew this, but just in case you didn't...


                              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              Professor of History
                              Hagerstown Community College


                              >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 4:11 PM >>>
                              I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                              going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                              work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                              idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                              that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                              discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                              13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                              I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                              write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                              cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                              have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                              (and of course vice-versa).

                              Larry F.


                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                              >
                              > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                              of the
                              > AoNV than vice versa.
                              >
                              > Harry
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                              > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                              at
                              > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                              > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                              >
                              > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                              Campaign
                              > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                              >
                              > Larry F.
                              >
                              > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                              > thing that
                              > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                              > promptly offset
                              > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                              > >
                              > > Harry
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com] On
                              > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                              > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                              > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                              thought
                              > the
                              > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                              that
                              > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                              > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                              > surrender
                              > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                              > Lee and
                              > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                              > him.
                              > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                              > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                              > >
                              > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              > > Professor of History
                              > > Hagerstown Community College
                              > >
                              > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                              > 40yahoo.com>
                              > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                              > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                              troopers
                              > at
                              > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                              > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                              > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                              > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                              Hampton's
                              > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                              > >
                              > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                              > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                              > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                              > > >
                              > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                              > > >
                              > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                              from
                              > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                              > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                              > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                              > > > Heights
                              > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                              to
                              > > > dig
                              > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                              > > > south
                              > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                              > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                              > > > > but
                              > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                              > > > > not
                              > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                              other
                              > > > than
                              > > > > for the 17th.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                              > > > > until
                              > > > > late January.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Larry
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                              > > > > <clemenst@>
                              > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                              > > > Attacks!
                              > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                              > > > > > was
                              > > > > written
                              > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              > > > > > Professor of History
                              > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                              > > > > > Larry,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                              > > > > > book on
                              > > > > > Harper's
                              > > > > > Ferry > >
                              > > > > > Harry
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com]
                              > > > > > On
                              > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                              > > > > > Sent:
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • eighth_conn_inf
                              Jake, Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a great head start
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                Jake,

                                Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And
                                thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a
                                great head start on my paper.

                                I have read that D.H. Hill did not write much about Antietam except
                                what he did for B&L so I guess there is no use to get anything else
                                by/about him? Obviously unpublished letters, etc., you mentioned
                                might have some good stuff about his experiences with Stuart and R.E.
                                Lee.

                                Larry F.

                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                                <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection
                                in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll
                                be happy to get it for you.
                                >
                                > ---jgp
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                >
                                > Jake,
                                >
                                > I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's
                                remarks.
                                >
                                > Thank you,
                                > Larry F.
                                >
                                > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                                > <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Larry:
                                > >
                                > > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                                > sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death)
                                regarding
                                > cavalry in the camapign.
                                > >
                                > > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                                > remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                                > papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY
                                issue,
                                > I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                                > Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                                > interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                                > afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                                > Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                                > >
                                > > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving
                                a
                                > glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                                > made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                                > be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                                > >
                                > > --jake
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
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