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Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Tom, Harry, and Jake, Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not have
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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      Tom, Harry, and Jake,

      Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but
      unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not
      have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other than
      for the 17th.

      BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me until
      late January.

      Larry

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall Attacks!
      > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was
      written
      > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
      >
      >
      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > Professor of History
      > Hagerstown Community College
      >
      >
      > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
      > Larry,
      >
      > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
      > Harper's
      > Ferry.
      >
      > Harry
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
      > On
      > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
      >
      >
      >
      > A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this
      date
      > re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
      > below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing
      the
      > Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up
      empty
      > there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
      > actions.
      >
      > Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13
      September
      > On MH?
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > Larry F.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • eighth_conn_inf
      My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland Heights but rather with McLaws as I m sure Carman details. I will have to dig out the details of
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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        My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland Heights
        but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to dig
        out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode south
        from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
        <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
        >
        > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
        >
        > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but
        > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not
        > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
        than
        > for the 17th.
        >
        > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me until
        > late January.
        >
        > Larry
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
        Attacks!
        > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was
        > written
        > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
        > >
        > >
        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > > Professor of History
        > > Hagerstown Community College
        > >
        > >
        > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
        > > Larry,
        > >
        > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
        > > Harper's
        > > Ferry.
        > >
        > > Harry
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
        > > On
        > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        > > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
        > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this
        > date
        > > re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
        > > below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing
        > the
        > > Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up
        > empty
        > > there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
        > > actions.
        > >
        > > Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13
        > September
        > > On MH?
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > >
        > > Larry F.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • G E Mayers
        Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox s Gap but then left...one of the reasons D H Hill had
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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          Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
          14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
          of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights


          My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
          Heights
          but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
          dig
          out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
          south
          from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
          <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
          >
          > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
          >
          > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
          > but
          > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
          > not
          > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
          than
          > for the 17th.
          >
          > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
          > until
          > late January.
          >
          > Larry
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
          > <clemenst@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
          Attacks!
          > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
          > > was
          > written
          > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
          > >
          > >
          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > > Professor of History
          > > Hagerstown Community College
          > >
          > >
          > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
          > > Larry,
          > >
          > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
          > > book on
          > > Harper's
          > > Ferry > >
          > > Harry
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
          > > On
          > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          > > Sent:
        • eighth_conn_inf
          I think after he rode south from Turner s and posted some troopers at Fox s he went to Crampton s Gap leaving more men--but not enough, then to McLaws. I m not
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
            Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
            then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
            actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
            Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
            activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
            > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
            > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            >
            >
            > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
            > Heights
            > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
            > dig
            > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
            > south
            > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
            > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
            > >
            > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
            > > but
            > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
            > > not
            > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
            > than
            > > for the 17th.
            > >
            > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
            > > until
            > > late January.
            > >
            > > Larry
            > >
            > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
            > > <clemenst@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
            > Attacks!
            > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
            > > > was
            > > written
            > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > > Professor of History
            > > > Hagerstown Community College
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
            > > > Larry,
            > > >
            > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
            > > > book on
            > > > Harper's
            > > > Ferry > >
            > > > Harry
            > > >
            > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
            > > > On
            > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            > > > Sent:
            >
          • Thomas Clemens
            After leaving Crampton s Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that day, he was wrong.
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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              After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
              real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
              day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
              McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
              reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
              galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
              Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
              Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.


              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College


              >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
              I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
              Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
              then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
              actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
              Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
              activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
              > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
              > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
              >
              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              >
              >
              > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
              > Heights
              > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
              > dig
              > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
              > south
              > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
              > >
              > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
              > > but
              > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
              > > not
              > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
              > than
              > > for the 17th.
              > >
              > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
              > > until
              > > late January.
              > >
              > > Larry
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
              > > <clemenst@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
              > Attacks!
              > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
              > > > was
              > > written
              > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > > Professor of History
              > > > Hagerstown Community College
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
              > > > Larry,
              > > >
              > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
              > > > book on
              > > > Harper's
              > > > Ferry > >
              > > > Harry
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
              > > > On
              > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > > > Sent:
              >
            • Harry Smeltzer
              I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset by
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that
                saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset
                by firing that damn howitzer again!

                Harry



                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
                real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
                reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
                galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
                Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.

                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College

                >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%40yahoo.com>
                inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.

                --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                >
                >
                > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                > Heights
                > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                > dig
                > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                > south
                > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                > >
                > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                > > but
                > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                > > not
                > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                > than
                > > for the 17th.
                > >
                > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                > > until
                > > late January.
                > >
                > > Larry
                > >
                > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                > > <clemenst@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                > Attacks!
                > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                > > > was
                > > written
                > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > > Professor of History
                > > > Hagerstown Community College
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                > > > Larry,
                > > >
                > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                > > > book on
                > > > Harper's
                > > > Ferry > >
                > > > Harry
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com]
                > > > On
                > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                > > > Sent:
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three occasions to the
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
                  ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                  occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

                  Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
                  but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

                  Larry F.


                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                  thing that
                  > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                  promptly offset
                  > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                  >
                  > Harry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
                  the
                  > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                  > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                  > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                  surrender
                  > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                  Lee and
                  > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                  him.
                  > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                  > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                  >
                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                  40yahoo.com>
                  > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                  > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
                  at
                  > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                  > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                  > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                  > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                  > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                  > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                  > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                  > >
                  > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  > >
                  > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                  > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                  > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                  > > Heights
                  > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                  > > dig
                  > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                  > > south
                  > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                  > >
                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                  > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                  > > >
                  > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                  > > > but
                  > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                  > > > not
                  > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                  > > than
                  > > > for the 17th.
                  > > >
                  > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                  > > > until
                  > > > late January.
                  > > >
                  > > > Larry
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                  > > > <clemenst@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                  > > Attacks!
                  > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                  > > > > was
                  > > > written
                  > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > > > Professor of History
                  > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                  > > > > Larry,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                  > > > > book on
                  > > > > Harper's
                  > > > > Ferry > >
                  > > > > Harry
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com
                  > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com]
                  > > > > On
                  > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  > > > > Sent:
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Harry Smeltzer
                  I d say that s damning him with slight praise. And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the AoNV than vice versa. Harry ... From:
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.

                    And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the
                    AoNV than vice versa.

                    Harry

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                    Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
                    ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                    occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

                    Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
                    but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

                    Larry F.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                    thing that
                    > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                    promptly offset
                    > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                    >
                    > Harry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com] On
                    > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                    > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                    > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
                    the
                    > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                    > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                    > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                    surrender
                    > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                    Lee and
                    > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                    him.
                    > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                    > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                    >
                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >
                    > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                    40yahoo.com>
                    > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                    > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
                    at
                    > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                    > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                    > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                    > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                    > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                    > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                    > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                    > >
                    > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    > >
                    > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                    > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                    > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                    > > Heights
                    > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                    > > dig
                    > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                    > > south
                    > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                    > >
                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                    > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                    > > >
                    > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                    > > > but
                    > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                    > > > not
                    > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                    > > than
                    > > > for the 17th.
                    > > >
                    > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                    > > > until
                    > > > late January.
                    > > >
                    > > > Larry
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                    > > > <clemenst@>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                    > > Attacks!
                    > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                    > > > > was
                    > > > written
                    > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > > > > Professor of History
                    > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                    > > > > Larry,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                    > > > > book on
                    > > > > Harper's
                    > > > > Ferry > >
                    > > > > Harry
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com
                    > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com]
                    > > > > On
                    > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    > > > > Sent:
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • eighth_conn_inf
                    I agree that neither side s cavalry did a great job scouting but I m going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I work on my next
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                      going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                      work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                      idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                      that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                      discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                      13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                      I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                      write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                      cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                      have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                      (and of course vice-versa).

                      Larry F.


                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                      >
                      > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                      of the
                      > AoNV than vice versa.
                      >
                      > Harry
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                      at
                      > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                      > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                      >
                      > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                      Campaign
                      > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                      >
                      > Larry F.
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                      > thing that
                      > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                      > promptly offset
                      > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                      > >
                      > > Harry
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com] On
                      > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                      > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                      thought
                      > the
                      > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                      that
                      > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                      > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                      > surrender
                      > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                      > Lee and
                      > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                      > him.
                      > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                      > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                      > >
                      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > Professor of History
                      > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > >
                      > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                      > 40yahoo.com>
                      > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                      > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                      troopers
                      > at
                      > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                      > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                      > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                      > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                      Hampton's
                      > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                      > >
                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                      > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                      > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                      > > >
                      > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      > > >
                      > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                      from
                      > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                      > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                      > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                      > > > Heights
                      > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                      to
                      > > > dig
                      > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                      > > > south
                      > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                      > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                      > > > > but
                      > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                      > > > > not
                      > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                      other
                      > > > than
                      > > > > for the 17th.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                      > > > > until
                      > > > > late January.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Larry
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                      > > > > <clemenst@>
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                      > > > Attacks!
                      > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                      > > > > > was
                      > > > > written
                      > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > > > > Professor of History
                      > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                      > > > > > Larry,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                      > > > > > book on
                      > > > > > Harper's
                      > > > > > Ferry > >
                      > > > > > Harry
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > yahoogroups.com]
                      > > > > > On
                      > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      > > > > > Sent:
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Joseph Pierro
                      Larry: You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Larry:

                        You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the camapign.

                        I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue, I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman, interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)

                        There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should be able to direct you to anything worth examining.

                        --jake


                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                        Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • eighth_conn_inf
                        Jake, I ordered Bridge s book and will plan to check it for Hill s remarks. Thank you, Larry F. ... sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death)
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Jake,

                          I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                          Thank you,
                          Larry F.


                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                          <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Larry:
                          >
                          > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                          sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                          cavalry in the camapign.
                          >
                          > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                          remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                          papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                          I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                          Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                          interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                          afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                          Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                          >
                          > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                          glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                          made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                          be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                          >
                          > --jake
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          ______________________________________________________________________
                          ______________
                          > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                          > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                          http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Joseph Pierro
                          Cool. If it turns out there s something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I ll be happy to get it for
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll be happy to get it for you.

                            ---jgp


                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                            Jake,

                            I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                            Thank you,
                            Larry F.

                            --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                            <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Larry:
                            >
                            > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                            sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                            cavalry in the camapign.
                            >
                            > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                            remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                            papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                            I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                            Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                            interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                            afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                            Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                            >
                            > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                            glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                            made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                            be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                            >
                            > --jake
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                            ____________ __
                            > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                            > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                            http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >





                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                            http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Harry Smeltzer
                            I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was unaware of the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                              the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                              unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                              prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                              him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                              he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                              day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                              Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                              discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                              again:

                              http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums
                              <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0>
                              &file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0

                              Harry



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                              Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                              I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                              going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                              work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                              idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                              that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                              discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                              13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                              I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                              write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                              cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                              have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                              (and of course vice-versa).

                              Larry F.

                              --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                              >
                              > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                              of the
                              > AoNV than vice versa.
                              >
                              > Harry
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                              > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                              > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                              at
                              > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                              > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                              >
                              > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                              Campaign
                              > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                              >
                              > Larry F.
                              >
                              > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                              > thing that
                              > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                              > promptly offset
                              > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                              > >
                              > > Harry
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com] On
                              > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                              > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                              > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                              thought
                              > the
                              > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                              that
                              > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                              > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                              > surrender
                              > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                              > Lee and
                              > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                              > him.
                              > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                              > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                              > >
                              > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              > > Professor of History
                              > > Hagerstown Community College
                              > >
                              > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                              > 40yahoo.com>
                              > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                              > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                              troopers
                              > at
                              > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                              > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                              > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                              > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                              Hampton's
                              > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                              > >
                              > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                              > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                              > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                              > > >
                              > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                              > > >
                              > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                              from
                              > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                              > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                              > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                              > > > Heights
                              > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                              to
                              > > > dig
                              > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                              > > > south
                              > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                              > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                              > > > > but
                              > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                              > > > > not
                              > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                              other
                              > > > than
                              > > > > for the 17th.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                              > > > > until
                              > > > > late January.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Larry
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                              > > > > <clemenst@>
                              > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                              > > > Attacks!
                              > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                              > > > > > was
                              > > > > written
                              > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              > > > > > Professor of History
                              > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                              > > > > > Larry,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                              > > > > > book on
                              > > > > > Harper's
                              > > > > > Ferry > >
                              > > > > > Harry
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com]
                              > > > > > On
                              > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                              > > > > > Sent:
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Harry Smeltzer
                              Larry, Hmm.looks like that link doesn t take you all the way to the discussion. Try this: Click
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Larry,

                                Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the discussion.
                                Try this:

                                Click
                                <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                                file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

                                If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you get to
                                the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for Stuart
                                in the Maryland Campaign thread.

                                Harry



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                                I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                                the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                                unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                                prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                                him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                                he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                                day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                                Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                                discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                                again:






                                Harry

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                                To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                                I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                (and of course vice-versa).

                                Larry F.

                                --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                >
                                > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                of the
                                > AoNV than vice versa.
                                >
                                > Harry
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                at
                                > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                >
                                > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                Campaign
                                > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                >
                                > Larry F.
                                >
                                > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                > thing that
                                > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                > promptly offset
                                > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                > >
                                > > Harry
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > yahoogroups.com] On
                                > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com
                                > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                thought
                                > the
                                > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                that
                                > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                > surrender
                                > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                > Lee and
                                > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                > him.
                                > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                > >
                                > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                > > Professor of History
                                > > Hagerstown Community College
                                > >
                                > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                > 40yahoo.com>
                                > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                troopers
                                > at
                                > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                Hampton's
                                > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                > >
                                > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                > > >
                                > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                > > >
                                > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                from
                                > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                > > > Heights
                                > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                to
                                > > > dig
                                > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                > > > south
                                > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                > > > > but
                                > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                > > > > not
                                > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                other
                                > > > than
                                > > > > for the 17th.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                > > > > until
                                > > > > late January.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Larry
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                > > > > <clemenst@>
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                > > > Attacks!
                                > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                > > > > > was
                                > > > > written
                                > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                > > > > > Professor of History
                                > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                > > > > > Larry,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                > > > > > book on
                                > > > > > Harper's
                                > > > > > Ferry > >
                                > > > > > Harry
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com]
                                > > > > > On
                                > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                > > > > > Sent:
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Thomas Clemens
                                Larry, Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman s Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Larry,
                                  Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman's Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the campaign to end. His interest, and his rosters, apply to Antietam and reflect Sept. 17, not much else. His OOB for the 17th suggests McClellan had a lot of cavalry, but much of it joined him after marching from Washington, some as late as the 17th. In fact, my memory is that Lee had more cavalry than McClellan until the 17th of Sept. when some of the units escaping from Harpers Ferry joined the AoP. That disparity will have an impact on effectiveness of scouting and intelligence gathering.
                                  You probably already knew this, but just in case you didn't...


                                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  Professor of History
                                  Hagerstown Community College


                                  >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 4:11 PM >>>
                                  I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                  going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                  work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                  idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                  that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                  discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                  13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                  I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                  write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                  cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                  have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                  (and of course vice-versa).

                                  Larry F.


                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                  >
                                  > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                  of the
                                  > AoNV than vice versa.
                                  >
                                  > Harry
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                  at
                                  > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                  > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                  >
                                  > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                  Campaign
                                  > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                  >
                                  > Larry F.
                                  >
                                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                  > thing that
                                  > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                  > promptly offset
                                  > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                  > >
                                  > > Harry
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                  > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                  thought
                                  > the
                                  > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                  that
                                  > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                  > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                  > surrender
                                  > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                  > Lee and
                                  > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                  > him.
                                  > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                  > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  > > Professor of History
                                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                                  > >
                                  > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                  > 40yahoo.com>
                                  > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                  > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                  troopers
                                  > at
                                  > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                  > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                  > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                  > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                  Hampton's
                                  > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                  > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                  > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                  from
                                  > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                  > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                  > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                  > > > Heights
                                  > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                  to
                                  > > > dig
                                  > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                  > > > south
                                  > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                  > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                  > > > > but
                                  > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                  > > > > not
                                  > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                  other
                                  > > > than
                                  > > > > for the 17th.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                  > > > > until
                                  > > > > late January.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Larry
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                  > > > > <clemenst@>
                                  > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                  > > > Attacks!
                                  > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                  > > > > > was
                                  > > > > written
                                  > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  > > > > > Professor of History
                                  > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                  > > > > > Larry,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                  > > > > > book on
                                  > > > > > Harper's
                                  > > > > > Ferry > >
                                  > > > > > Harry
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com]
                                  > > > > > On
                                  > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                  > > > > > Sent:
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • eighth_conn_inf
                                  Jake, Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a great head start
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Jake,

                                    Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And
                                    thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a
                                    great head start on my paper.

                                    I have read that D.H. Hill did not write much about Antietam except
                                    what he did for B&L so I guess there is no use to get anything else
                                    by/about him? Obviously unpublished letters, etc., you mentioned
                                    might have some good stuff about his experiences with Stuart and R.E.
                                    Lee.

                                    Larry F.

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                                    <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection
                                    in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll
                                    be happy to get it for you.
                                    >
                                    > ---jgp
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                    >
                                    > Jake,
                                    >
                                    > I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's
                                    remarks.
                                    >
                                    > Thank you,
                                    > Larry F.
                                    >
                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                                    > <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Larry:
                                    > >
                                    > > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                                    > sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death)
                                    regarding
                                    > cavalry in the camapign.
                                    > >
                                    > > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                                    > remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                                    > papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY
                                    issue,
                                    > I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                                    > Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                                    > interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                                    > afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                                    > Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                                    > >
                                    > > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving
                                    a
                                    > glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                                    > made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                                    > be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                                    > >
                                    > > --jake
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
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                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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