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RE: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

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  • Thomas Clemens
    There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray s Stonewall Attacks! issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was written by Dennis Frye.
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 17, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall Attacks!
      issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was written
      by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.


      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
      Larry,

      I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
      Harper's
      Ferry.

      Harry

      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
      On
      Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



      A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this date
      re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
      below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing the
      Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up empty
      there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
      actions.

      Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13 September
      On MH?

      Thanks,

      Larry F.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Tom, Harry, and Jake, Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not have
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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        Tom, Harry, and Jake,

        Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but
        unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not
        have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other than
        for the 17th.

        BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me until
        late January.

        Larry

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall Attacks!
        > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was
        written
        > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
        >
        >
        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College
        >
        >
        > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
        > Larry,
        >
        > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
        > Harper's
        > Ferry.
        >
        > Harry
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
        > On
        > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
        >
        >
        >
        > A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this
        date
        > re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
        > below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing
        the
        > Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up
        empty
        > there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
        > actions.
        >
        > Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13
        September
        > On MH?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Larry F.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • eighth_conn_inf
        My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland Heights but rather with McLaws as I m sure Carman details. I will have to dig out the details of
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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          My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland Heights
          but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to dig
          out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode south
          from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
          <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
          >
          > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
          >
          > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but
          > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not
          > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
          than
          > for the 17th.
          >
          > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me until
          > late January.
          >
          > Larry
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
          Attacks!
          > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was
          > written
          > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
          > >
          > >
          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > > Professor of History
          > > Hagerstown Community College
          > >
          > >
          > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
          > > Larry,
          > >
          > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
          > > Harper's
          > > Ferry.
          > >
          > > Harry
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
          > > On
          > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          > > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
          > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this
          > date
          > > re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
          > > below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing
          > the
          > > Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up
          > empty
          > > there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
          > > actions.
          > >
          > > Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13
          > September
          > > On MH?
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > >
          > > Larry F.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
        • G E Mayers
          Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox s Gap but then left...one of the reasons D H Hill had
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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            Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
            14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
            of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights


            My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
            Heights
            but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
            dig
            out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
            south
            from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
            <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
            >
            > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
            >
            > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
            > but
            > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
            > not
            > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
            than
            > for the 17th.
            >
            > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
            > until
            > late January.
            >
            > Larry
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
            > <clemenst@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
            Attacks!
            > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
            > > was
            > written
            > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
            > >
            > >
            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > Professor of History
            > > Hagerstown Community College
            > >
            > >
            > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
            > > Larry,
            > >
            > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
            > > book on
            > > Harper's
            > > Ferry > >
            > > Harry
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
            > > On
            > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            > > Sent:
          • eighth_conn_inf
            I think after he rode south from Turner s and posted some troopers at Fox s he went to Crampton s Gap leaving more men--but not enough, then to McLaws. I m not
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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              I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
              Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
              then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
              actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
              Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
              activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
              > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
              > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
              >
              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              >
              >
              > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
              > Heights
              > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
              > dig
              > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
              > south
              > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
              > >
              > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
              > > but
              > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
              > > not
              > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
              > than
              > > for the 17th.
              > >
              > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
              > > until
              > > late January.
              > >
              > > Larry
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
              > > <clemenst@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
              > Attacks!
              > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
              > > > was
              > > written
              > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > > Professor of History
              > > > Hagerstown Community College
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
              > > > Larry,
              > > >
              > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
              > > > book on
              > > > Harper's
              > > > Ferry > >
              > > > Harry
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
              > > > On
              > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > > > Sent:
              >
            • Thomas Clemens
              After leaving Crampton s Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that day, he was wrong.
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
                real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
                reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
                galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
                Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.


                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College


                >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                >
                >
                > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                > Heights
                > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                > dig
                > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                > south
                > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                > >
                > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                > > but
                > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                > > not
                > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                > than
                > > for the 17th.
                > >
                > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                > > until
                > > late January.
                > >
                > > Larry
                > >
                > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                > > <clemenst@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                > Attacks!
                > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                > > > was
                > > written
                > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > > Professor of History
                > > > Hagerstown Community College
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                > > > Larry,
                > > >
                > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                > > > book on
                > > > Harper's
                > > > Ferry > >
                > > > Harry
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                > > > On
                > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                > > > Sent:
                >
              • Harry Smeltzer
                I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset by
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that
                  saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset
                  by firing that damn howitzer again!

                  Harry



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                  Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                  After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
                  real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                  day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                  McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
                  reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
                  galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
                  Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                  Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.

                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College

                  >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%40yahoo.com>
                  inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                  I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                  Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                  then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                  actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                  Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                  activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                  > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                  > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                  >
                  >
                  > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                  > Heights
                  > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                  > dig
                  > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                  > south
                  > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                  > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                  > >
                  > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                  > > but
                  > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                  > > not
                  > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                  > than
                  > > for the 17th.
                  > >
                  > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                  > > until
                  > > late January.
                  > >
                  > > Larry
                  > >
                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                  > > <clemenst@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                  > Attacks!
                  > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                  > > > was
                  > > written
                  > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > > Professor of History
                  > > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                  > > > Larry,
                  > > >
                  > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                  > > > book on
                  > > > Harper's
                  > > > Ferry > >
                  > > > Harry
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com
                  > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com]
                  > > > On
                  > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  > > > Sent:
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • eighth_conn_inf
                  Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three occasions to the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
                    ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                    occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

                    Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
                    but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

                    Larry F.


                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                    thing that
                    > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                    promptly offset
                    > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                    >
                    > Harry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                    > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
                    the
                    > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                    > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                    > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                    surrender
                    > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                    Lee and
                    > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                    him.
                    > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                    > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                    >
                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >
                    > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                    40yahoo.com>
                    > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                    > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
                    at
                    > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                    > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                    > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                    > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                    > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                    > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                    > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                    > >
                    > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    > >
                    > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                    > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                    > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                    > > Heights
                    > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                    > > dig
                    > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                    > > south
                    > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                    > >
                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                    > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                    > > >
                    > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                    > > > but
                    > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                    > > > not
                    > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                    > > than
                    > > > for the 17th.
                    > > >
                    > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                    > > > until
                    > > > late January.
                    > > >
                    > > > Larry
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                    > > > <clemenst@>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                    > > Attacks!
                    > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                    > > > > was
                    > > > written
                    > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > > > > Professor of History
                    > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                    > > > > Larry,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                    > > > > book on
                    > > > > Harper's
                    > > > > Ferry > >
                    > > > > Harry
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com
                    > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com]
                    > > > > On
                    > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    > > > > Sent:
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Harry Smeltzer
                    I d say that s damning him with slight praise. And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the AoNV than vice versa. Harry ... From:
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.

                      And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the
                      AoNV than vice versa.

                      Harry

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                      Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
                      ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                      occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

                      Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
                      but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

                      Larry F.

                      --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                      thing that
                      > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                      promptly offset
                      > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                      >
                      > Harry
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                      > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
                      the
                      > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                      > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                      > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                      surrender
                      > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                      Lee and
                      > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                      him.
                      > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                      > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                      >
                      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > Professor of History
                      > Hagerstown Community College
                      >
                      > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                      40yahoo.com>
                      > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                      > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
                      at
                      > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                      > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                      > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                      > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                      > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                      > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                      > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                      > >
                      > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      > >
                      > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                      > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                      > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                      > > Heights
                      > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                      > > dig
                      > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                      > > south
                      > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                      > >
                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                      > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                      > > >
                      > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                      > > > but
                      > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                      > > > not
                      > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                      > > than
                      > > > for the 17th.
                      > > >
                      > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                      > > > until
                      > > > late January.
                      > > >
                      > > > Larry
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                      > > > <clemenst@>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                      > > Attacks!
                      > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                      > > > > was
                      > > > written
                      > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > > > Professor of History
                      > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                      > > > > Larry,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                      > > > > book on
                      > > > > Harper's
                      > > > > Ferry > >
                      > > > > Harry
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com
                      > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com]
                      > > > > On
                      > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      > > > > Sent:
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • eighth_conn_inf
                      I agree that neither side s cavalry did a great job scouting but I m going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I work on my next
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                        going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                        work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                        idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                        that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                        discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                        13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                        I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                        write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                        cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                        have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                        (and of course vice-versa).

                        Larry F.


                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                        >
                        > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                        of the
                        > AoNV than vice versa.
                        >
                        > Harry
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                        at
                        > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                        > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                        >
                        > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                        Campaign
                        > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                        >
                        > Larry F.
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                        > thing that
                        > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                        > promptly offset
                        > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                        > >
                        > > Harry
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com] On
                        > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                        > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                        thought
                        > the
                        > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                        that
                        > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                        > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                        > surrender
                        > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                        > Lee and
                        > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                        > him.
                        > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                        > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                        > >
                        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > Professor of History
                        > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > >
                        > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                        > 40yahoo.com>
                        > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                        > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                        troopers
                        > at
                        > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                        > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                        > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                        > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                        Hampton's
                        > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                        > >
                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                        > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                        > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                        > > >
                        > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        > > >
                        > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                        from
                        > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                        > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                        > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                        > > > Heights
                        > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                        to
                        > > > dig
                        > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                        > > > south
                        > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                        > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                        > > > > but
                        > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                        > > > > not
                        > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                        other
                        > > > than
                        > > > > for the 17th.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                        > > > > until
                        > > > > late January.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Larry
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                        > > > > <clemenst@>
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                        > > > Attacks!
                        > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                        > > > > > was
                        > > > > written
                        > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > > > > Professor of History
                        > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                        > > > > > Larry,
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                        > > > > > book on
                        > > > > > Harper's
                        > > > > > Ferry > >
                        > > > > > Harry
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > yahoogroups.com]
                        > > > > > On
                        > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        > > > > > Sent:
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Joseph Pierro
                        Larry: You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Larry:

                          You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the camapign.

                          I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue, I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman, interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)

                          There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should be able to direct you to anything worth examining.

                          --jake


                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
                          Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                          Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • eighth_conn_inf
                          Jake, I ordered Bridge s book and will plan to check it for Hill s remarks. Thank you, Larry F. ... sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death)
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jake,

                            I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                            Thank you,
                            Larry F.


                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                            <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Larry:
                            >
                            > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                            sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                            cavalry in the camapign.
                            >
                            > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                            remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                            papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                            I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                            Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                            interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                            afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                            Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                            >
                            > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                            glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                            made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                            be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                            >
                            > --jake
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            ______________________________________________________________________
                            ______________
                            > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                            > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                            http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Joseph Pierro
                            Cool. If it turns out there s something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I ll be happy to get it for
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll be happy to get it for you.

                              ---jgp


                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                              Jake,

                              I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                              Thank you,
                              Larry F.

                              --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                              <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Larry:
                              >
                              > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                              sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                              cavalry in the camapign.
                              >
                              > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                              remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                              papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                              I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                              Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                              interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                              afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                              Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                              >
                              > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                              glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                              made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                              be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                              >
                              > --jake
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                              ____________ __
                              > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                              > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                              http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >





                              ____________________________________________________________________________________
                              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                              http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Harry Smeltzer
                              I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was unaware of the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                                the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                                unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                                prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                                him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                                he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                                day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                                Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                                discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                                again:

                                http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums
                                <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0>
                                &file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0

                                Harry



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                                I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                (and of course vice-versa).

                                Larry F.

                                --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                >
                                > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                of the
                                > AoNV than vice versa.
                                >
                                > Harry
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                at
                                > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                >
                                > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                Campaign
                                > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                >
                                > Larry F.
                                >
                                > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                > thing that
                                > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                > promptly offset
                                > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                > >
                                > > Harry
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > yahoogroups.com] On
                                > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com
                                > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                thought
                                > the
                                > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                that
                                > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                > surrender
                                > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                > Lee and
                                > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                > him.
                                > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                > >
                                > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                > > Professor of History
                                > > Hagerstown Community College
                                > >
                                > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                > 40yahoo.com>
                                > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                troopers
                                > at
                                > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                Hampton's
                                > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                > >
                                > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                > > >
                                > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                > > >
                                > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                from
                                > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                > > > Heights
                                > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                to
                                > > > dig
                                > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                > > > south
                                > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                > > > > but
                                > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                > > > > not
                                > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                other
                                > > > than
                                > > > > for the 17th.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                > > > > until
                                > > > > late January.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Larry
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                > > > > <clemenst@>
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                > > > Attacks!
                                > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                > > > > > was
                                > > > > written
                                > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                > > > > > Professor of History
                                > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                > > > > > Larry,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                > > > > > book on
                                > > > > > Harper's
                                > > > > > Ferry > >
                                > > > > > Harry
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > yahoogroups.com]
                                > > > > > On
                                > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                > > > > > Sent:
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Harry Smeltzer
                                Larry, Hmm.looks like that link doesn t take you all the way to the discussion. Try this: Click
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Larry,

                                  Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the discussion.
                                  Try this:

                                  Click
                                  <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                                  file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

                                  If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you get to
                                  the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for Stuart
                                  in the Maryland Campaign thread.

                                  Harry



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                                  I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                                  the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                                  unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                                  prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                                  him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                                  he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                                  day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                                  Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                                  discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                                  again:






                                  Harry

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                                  To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                                  I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                  going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                  work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                  idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                  that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                  discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                  13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                  I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                  write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                  cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                  have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                  (and of course vice-versa).

                                  Larry F.

                                  --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                  >
                                  > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                  of the
                                  > AoNV than vice versa.
                                  >
                                  > Harry
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                  > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                  at
                                  > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                  > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                  >
                                  > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                  Campaign
                                  > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                  >
                                  > Larry F.
                                  >
                                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                  > thing that
                                  > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                  > promptly offset
                                  > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                  > >
                                  > > Harry
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                  > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                  thought
                                  > the
                                  > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                  that
                                  > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                  > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                  > surrender
                                  > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                  > Lee and
                                  > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                  > him.
                                  > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                  > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  > > Professor of History
                                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                                  > >
                                  > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                  > 40yahoo.com>
                                  > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                  > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                  troopers
                                  > at
                                  > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                  > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                  > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                  > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                  Hampton's
                                  > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                  > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                  > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                  from
                                  > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                  > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                  > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                  > > > Heights
                                  > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                  to
                                  > > > dig
                                  > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                  > > > south
                                  > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                  > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                  > > > > but
                                  > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                  > > > > not
                                  > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                  other
                                  > > > than
                                  > > > > for the 17th.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                  > > > > until
                                  > > > > late January.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Larry
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                  > > > > <clemenst@>
                                  > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                  > > > Attacks!
                                  > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                  > > > > > was
                                  > > > > written
                                  > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  > > > > > Professor of History
                                  > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                  > > > > > Larry,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                  > > > > > book on
                                  > > > > > Harper's
                                  > > > > > Ferry > >
                                  > > > > > Harry
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com]
                                  > > > > > On
                                  > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                  > > > > > Sent:
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Thomas Clemens
                                  Larry, Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman s Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Larry,
                                    Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman's Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the campaign to end. His interest, and his rosters, apply to Antietam and reflect Sept. 17, not much else. His OOB for the 17th suggests McClellan had a lot of cavalry, but much of it joined him after marching from Washington, some as late as the 17th. In fact, my memory is that Lee had more cavalry than McClellan until the 17th of Sept. when some of the units escaping from Harpers Ferry joined the AoP. That disparity will have an impact on effectiveness of scouting and intelligence gathering.
                                    You probably already knew this, but just in case you didn't...


                                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    Professor of History
                                    Hagerstown Community College


                                    >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 4:11 PM >>>
                                    I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                    going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                    work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                    idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                    that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                    discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                    13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                    I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                    write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                    cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                    have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                    (and of course vice-versa).

                                    Larry F.


                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                    >
                                    > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                    of the
                                    > AoNV than vice versa.
                                    >
                                    > Harry
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                    at
                                    > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                    > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                    >
                                    > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                    Campaign
                                    > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                    >
                                    > Larry F.
                                    >
                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                    > thing that
                                    > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                    > promptly offset
                                    > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                    > >
                                    > > Harry
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                    > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                    thought
                                    > the
                                    > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                    that
                                    > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                    > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                    > surrender
                                    > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                    > Lee and
                                    > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                    > him.
                                    > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                    > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    > > Professor of History
                                    > > Hagerstown Community College
                                    > >
                                    > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                    > 40yahoo.com>
                                    > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                    > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                    troopers
                                    > at
                                    > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                    > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                    > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                    > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                    Hampton's
                                    > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                    > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                    > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                    > > >
                                    > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                    > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                    from
                                    > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                    > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                    > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                    > > > Heights
                                    > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                    to
                                    > > > dig
                                    > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                    > > > south
                                    > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                    > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                    > > > > but
                                    > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                    > > > > not
                                    > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                    other
                                    > > > than
                                    > > > > for the 17th.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                    > > > > until
                                    > > > > late January.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Larry
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                    > > > > <clemenst@>
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                    > > > Attacks!
                                    > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                    > > > > > was
                                    > > > > written
                                    > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    > > > > > Professor of History
                                    > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                    > > > > > Larry,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                    > > > > > book on
                                    > > > > > Harper's
                                    > > > > > Ferry > >
                                    > > > > > Harry
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com]
                                    > > > > > On
                                    > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                    > > > > > Sent:
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • eighth_conn_inf
                                    Jake, Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a great head start
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Jake,

                                      Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And
                                      thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a
                                      great head start on my paper.

                                      I have read that D.H. Hill did not write much about Antietam except
                                      what he did for B&L so I guess there is no use to get anything else
                                      by/about him? Obviously unpublished letters, etc., you mentioned
                                      might have some good stuff about his experiences with Stuart and R.E.
                                      Lee.

                                      Larry F.

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                                      <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection
                                      in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll
                                      be happy to get it for you.
                                      >
                                      > ---jgp
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                      >
                                      > Jake,
                                      >
                                      > I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's
                                      remarks.
                                      >
                                      > Thank you,
                                      > Larry F.
                                      >
                                      > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                                      > <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Larry:
                                      > >
                                      > > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                                      > sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death)
                                      regarding
                                      > cavalry in the camapign.
                                      > >
                                      > > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                                      > remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                                      > papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY
                                      issue,
                                      > I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                                      > Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                                      > interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                                      > afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                                      > Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                                      > >
                                      > > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving
                                      a
                                      > glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                                      > made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                                      > be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                                      > >
                                      > > --jake
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
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                                      > ____________ __
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                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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