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RE: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

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  • Harry Smeltzer
    Larry, I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn s book on Harper s Ferry. Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 17, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Larry,

      I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on Harper's
      Ferry.

      Harry

      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



      A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this date
      re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
      below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing the
      Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up empty
      there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
      actions.

      Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13 September
      On MH?

      Thanks,

      Larry F.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Thomas Clemens
      There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray s Stonewall Attacks! issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was written by Dennis Frye.
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 17, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall Attacks!
        issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was written
        by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.


        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College


        >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
        Larry,

        I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
        Harper's
        Ferry.

        Harry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
        On
        Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



        A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this date
        re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
        below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing the
        Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up empty
        there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
        actions.

        Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13 September
        On MH?

        Thanks,

        Larry F.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • eighth_conn_inf
        Tom, Harry, and Jake, Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not have
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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          Tom, Harry, and Jake,

          Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but
          unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not
          have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other than
          for the 17th.

          BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me until
          late January.

          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall Attacks!
          > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was
          written
          > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
          >
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >
          >
          > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
          > Larry,
          >
          > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
          > Harper's
          > Ferry.
          >
          > Harry
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
          > On
          > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
          >
          >
          >
          > A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this
          date
          > re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
          > below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing
          the
          > Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up
          empty
          > there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
          > actions.
          >
          > Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13
          September
          > On MH?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Larry F.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • eighth_conn_inf
          My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland Heights but rather with McLaws as I m sure Carman details. I will have to dig out the details of
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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            My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland Heights
            but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to dig
            out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode south
            from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
            <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
            >
            > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
            >
            > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but
            > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not
            > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
            than
            > for the 17th.
            >
            > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me until
            > late January.
            >
            > Larry
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
            Attacks!
            > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was
            > written
            > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
            > >
            > >
            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > Professor of History
            > > Hagerstown Community College
            > >
            > >
            > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
            > > Larry,
            > >
            > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
            > > Harper's
            > > Ferry.
            > >
            > > Harry
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
            > > On
            > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            > > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
            > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this
            > date
            > > re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
            > > below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing
            > the
            > > Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up
            > empty
            > > there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
            > > actions.
            > >
            > > Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13
            > September
            > > On MH?
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > > Larry F.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • G E Mayers
            Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox s Gap but then left...one of the reasons D H Hill had
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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              Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
              14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
              of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights


              My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
              Heights
              but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
              dig
              out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
              south
              from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
              >
              > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
              >
              > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
              > but
              > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
              > not
              > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
              than
              > for the 17th.
              >
              > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
              > until
              > late January.
              >
              > Larry
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
              > <clemenst@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
              Attacks!
              > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
              > > was
              > written
              > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
              > >
              > >
              > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > Professor of History
              > > Hagerstown Community College
              > >
              > >
              > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
              > > Larry,
              > >
              > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
              > > book on
              > > Harper's
              > > Ferry > >
              > > Harry
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
              > > On
              > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > > Sent:
            • eighth_conn_inf
              I think after he rode south from Turner s and posted some troopers at Fox s he went to Crampton s Gap leaving more men--but not enough, then to McLaws. I m not
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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                I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                >
                >
                > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                > Heights
                > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                > dig
                > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                > south
                > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                > >
                > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                > > but
                > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                > > not
                > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                > than
                > > for the 17th.
                > >
                > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                > > until
                > > late January.
                > >
                > > Larry
                > >
                > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                > > <clemenst@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                > Attacks!
                > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                > > > was
                > > written
                > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > > Professor of History
                > > > Hagerstown Community College
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                > > > Larry,
                > > >
                > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                > > > book on
                > > > Harper's
                > > > Ferry > >
                > > > Harry
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                > > > On
                > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                > > > Sent:
                >
              • Thomas Clemens
                After leaving Crampton s Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that day, he was wrong.
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
                  real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                  day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                  McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
                  reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
                  galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
                  Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                  Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.


                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College


                  >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                  I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                  Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                  then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                  actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                  Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                  activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                  > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                  > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                  >
                  >
                  > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                  > Heights
                  > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                  > dig
                  > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                  > south
                  > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                  > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                  > >
                  > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                  > > but
                  > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                  > > not
                  > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                  > than
                  > > for the 17th.
                  > >
                  > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                  > > until
                  > > late January.
                  > >
                  > > Larry
                  > >
                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                  > > <clemenst@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                  > Attacks!
                  > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                  > > > was
                  > > written
                  > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > > Professor of History
                  > > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                  > > > Larry,
                  > > >
                  > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                  > > > book on
                  > > > Harper's
                  > > > Ferry > >
                  > > > Harry
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                  > > > On
                  > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  > > > Sent:
                  >
                • Harry Smeltzer
                  I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset by
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that
                    saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset
                    by firing that damn howitzer again!

                    Harry



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                    After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
                    real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                    day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                    McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
                    reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
                    galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
                    Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                    Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.

                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College

                    >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%40yahoo.com>
                    inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                    I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                    Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                    then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                    actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                    Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                    activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                    > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                    > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                    >
                    >
                    > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                    > Heights
                    > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                    > dig
                    > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                    > south
                    > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                    > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                    > >
                    > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                    > > but
                    > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                    > > not
                    > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                    > than
                    > > for the 17th.
                    > >
                    > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                    > > until
                    > > late January.
                    > >
                    > > Larry
                    > >
                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                    > > <clemenst@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                    > Attacks!
                    > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                    > > > was
                    > > written
                    > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > > > Professor of History
                    > > > Hagerstown Community College
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                    > > > Larry,
                    > > >
                    > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                    > > > book on
                    > > > Harper's
                    > > > Ferry > >
                    > > > Harry
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com
                    > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com]
                    > > > On
                    > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    > > > Sent:
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • eighth_conn_inf
                    Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three occasions to the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
                      ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                      occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

                      Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
                      but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

                      Larry F.


                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                      thing that
                      > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                      promptly offset
                      > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                      >
                      > Harry
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
                      the
                      > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                      > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                      > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                      surrender
                      > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                      Lee and
                      > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                      him.
                      > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                      > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                      >
                      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > Professor of History
                      > Hagerstown Community College
                      >
                      > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                      40yahoo.com>
                      > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                      > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
                      at
                      > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                      > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                      > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                      > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                      > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                      > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                      > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                      > >
                      > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      > >
                      > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                      > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                      > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                      > > Heights
                      > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                      > > dig
                      > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                      > > south
                      > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                      > >
                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                      > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                      > > >
                      > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                      > > > but
                      > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                      > > > not
                      > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                      > > than
                      > > > for the 17th.
                      > > >
                      > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                      > > > until
                      > > > late January.
                      > > >
                      > > > Larry
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                      > > > <clemenst@>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                      > > Attacks!
                      > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                      > > > > was
                      > > > written
                      > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > > > Professor of History
                      > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                      > > > > Larry,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                      > > > > book on
                      > > > > Harper's
                      > > > > Ferry > >
                      > > > > Harry
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com
                      > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > yahoogroups.com]
                      > > > > On
                      > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      > > > > Sent:
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Harry Smeltzer
                      I d say that s damning him with slight praise. And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the AoNV than vice versa. Harry ... From:
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.

                        And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the
                        AoNV than vice versa.

                        Harry

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                        Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
                        ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                        occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

                        Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
                        but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

                        Larry F.

                        --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                        thing that
                        > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                        promptly offset
                        > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                        >
                        > Harry
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                        > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
                        the
                        > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                        > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                        > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                        surrender
                        > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                        Lee and
                        > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                        him.
                        > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                        > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                        >
                        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > Professor of History
                        > Hagerstown Community College
                        >
                        > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                        40yahoo.com>
                        > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                        > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
                        at
                        > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                        > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                        > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                        > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                        > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                        > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                        > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                        > >
                        > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        > >
                        > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                        > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                        > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                        > > Heights
                        > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                        > > dig
                        > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                        > > south
                        > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                        > >
                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                        > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                        > > >
                        > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                        > > > but
                        > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                        > > > not
                        > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                        > > than
                        > > > for the 17th.
                        > > >
                        > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                        > > > until
                        > > > late January.
                        > > >
                        > > > Larry
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                        > > > <clemenst@>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                        > > Attacks!
                        > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                        > > > > was
                        > > > written
                        > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > > > Professor of History
                        > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                        > > > > Larry,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                        > > > > book on
                        > > > > Harper's
                        > > > > Ferry > >
                        > > > > Harry
                        > > > >
                        > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com
                        > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com]
                        > > > > On
                        > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        > > > > Sent:
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • eighth_conn_inf
                        I agree that neither side s cavalry did a great job scouting but I m going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I work on my next
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                          going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                          work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                          idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                          that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                          discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                          13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                          I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                          write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                          cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                          have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                          (and of course vice-versa).

                          Larry F.


                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                          >
                          > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                          of the
                          > AoNV than vice versa.
                          >
                          > Harry
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                          at
                          > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                          > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                          >
                          > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                          Campaign
                          > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                          >
                          > Larry F.
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                          > thing that
                          > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                          > promptly offset
                          > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                          > >
                          > > Harry
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com] On
                          > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                          > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                          thought
                          > the
                          > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                          that
                          > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                          > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                          > surrender
                          > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                          > Lee and
                          > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                          > him.
                          > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                          > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                          > >
                          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > Professor of History
                          > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > >
                          > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                          > 40yahoo.com>
                          > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                          > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                          troopers
                          > at
                          > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                          > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                          > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                          > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                          Hampton's
                          > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                          > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                          > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                          > > >
                          > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          > > >
                          > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                          from
                          > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                          > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                          > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                          > > > Heights
                          > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                          to
                          > > > dig
                          > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                          > > > south
                          > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                          > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                          > > > > but
                          > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                          > > > > not
                          > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                          other
                          > > > than
                          > > > > for the 17th.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                          > > > > until
                          > > > > late January.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Larry
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          > > > > <clemenst@>
                          > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                          > > > Attacks!
                          > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                          > > > > > was
                          > > > > written
                          > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > > > > Professor of History
                          > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                          > > > > > Larry,
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                          > > > > > book on
                          > > > > > Harper's
                          > > > > > Ferry > >
                          > > > > > Harry
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > yahoogroups.com]
                          > > > > > On
                          > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                          > > > > > Sent:
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Joseph Pierro
                          Larry: You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Larry:

                            You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the camapign.

                            I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue, I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman, interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)

                            There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should be able to direct you to anything worth examining.

                            --jake


                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                            Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                            Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • eighth_conn_inf
                            Jake, I ordered Bridge s book and will plan to check it for Hill s remarks. Thank you, Larry F. ... sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death)
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Jake,

                              I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                              Thank you,
                              Larry F.


                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                              <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Larry:
                              >
                              > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                              sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                              cavalry in the camapign.
                              >
                              > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                              remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                              papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                              I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                              Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                              interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                              afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                              Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                              >
                              > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                              glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                              made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                              be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                              >
                              > --jake
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              ______________________________________________________________________
                              ______________
                              > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                              > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                              http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Joseph Pierro
                              Cool. If it turns out there s something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I ll be happy to get it for
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll be happy to get it for you.

                                ---jgp


                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                                Jake,

                                I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                                Thank you,
                                Larry F.

                                --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                                <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Larry:
                                >
                                > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                                sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                                cavalry in the camapign.
                                >
                                > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                                remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                                papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                                I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                                Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                                interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                                afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                                Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                                >
                                > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                                glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                                made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                                be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                                >
                                > --jake
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                ____________ __
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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Harry Smeltzer
                                I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was unaware of the
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                                  the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                                  unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                                  prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                                  him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                                  he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                                  day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                                  Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                                  discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                                  again:

                                  http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums
                                  <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0>
                                  &file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0

                                  Harry



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                                  I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                  going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                  work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                  idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                  that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                  discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                  13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                  I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                  write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                  cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                  have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                  (and of course vice-versa).

                                  Larry F.

                                  --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                  >
                                  > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                  of the
                                  > AoNV than vice versa.
                                  >
                                  > Harry
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                  > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                  at
                                  > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                  > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                  >
                                  > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                  Campaign
                                  > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                  >
                                  > Larry F.
                                  >
                                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                  > thing that
                                  > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                  > promptly offset
                                  > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                  > >
                                  > > Harry
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                  > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                  thought
                                  > the
                                  > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                  that
                                  > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                  > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                  > surrender
                                  > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                  > Lee and
                                  > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                  > him.
                                  > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                  > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  > > Professor of History
                                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                                  > >
                                  > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                  > 40yahoo.com>
                                  > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                  > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                  troopers
                                  > at
                                  > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                  > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                  > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                  > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                  Hampton's
                                  > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                  > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                  > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                  from
                                  > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                  > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                  > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                  > > > Heights
                                  > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                  to
                                  > > > dig
                                  > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                  > > > south
                                  > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                  > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                  > > > > but
                                  > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                  > > > > not
                                  > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                  other
                                  > > > than
                                  > > > > for the 17th.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                  > > > > until
                                  > > > > late January.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Larry
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                  > > > > <clemenst@>
                                  > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                  > > > Attacks!
                                  > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                  > > > > > was
                                  > > > > written
                                  > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  > > > > > Professor of History
                                  > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                  > > > > > Larry,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                  > > > > > book on
                                  > > > > > Harper's
                                  > > > > > Ferry > >
                                  > > > > > Harry
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > yahoogroups.com]
                                  > > > > > On
                                  > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                  > > > > > Sent:
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Harry Smeltzer
                                  Larry, Hmm.looks like that link doesn t take you all the way to the discussion. Try this: Click
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Larry,

                                    Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the discussion.
                                    Try this:

                                    Click
                                    <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                                    file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

                                    If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you get to
                                    the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for Stuart
                                    in the Maryland Campaign thread.

                                    Harry



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                                    I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                                    the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                                    unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                                    prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                                    him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                                    he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                                    day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                                    Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                                    discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                                    again:






                                    Harry

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                                    To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                                    I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                    going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                    work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                    idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                    that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                    discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                    13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                    I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                    write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                    cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                    have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                    (and of course vice-versa).

                                    Larry F.

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                    >
                                    > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                    of the
                                    > AoNV than vice versa.
                                    >
                                    > Harry
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                    > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                    at
                                    > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                    > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                    >
                                    > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                    Campaign
                                    > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                    >
                                    > Larry F.
                                    >
                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                    > thing that
                                    > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                    > promptly offset
                                    > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                    > >
                                    > > Harry
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                    > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                    thought
                                    > the
                                    > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                    that
                                    > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                    > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                    > surrender
                                    > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                    > Lee and
                                    > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                    > him.
                                    > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                    > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    > > Professor of History
                                    > > Hagerstown Community College
                                    > >
                                    > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                    > 40yahoo.com>
                                    > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                    > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                    troopers
                                    > at
                                    > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                    > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                    > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                    > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                    Hampton's
                                    > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                    > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                    > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                    > > >
                                    > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                    > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                    from
                                    > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                    > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                    > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                    > > > Heights
                                    > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                    to
                                    > > > dig
                                    > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                    > > > south
                                    > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                    > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                    > > > > but
                                    > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                    > > > > not
                                    > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                    other
                                    > > > than
                                    > > > > for the 17th.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                    > > > > until
                                    > > > > late January.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Larry
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                    > > > > <clemenst@>
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                    > > > Attacks!
                                    > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                    > > > > > was
                                    > > > > written
                                    > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    > > > > > Professor of History
                                    > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                    > > > > > Larry,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                    > > > > > book on
                                    > > > > > Harper's
                                    > > > > > Ferry > >
                                    > > > > > Harry
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com]
                                    > > > > > On
                                    > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                    > > > > > Sent:
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Thomas Clemens
                                    Larry, Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman s Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Larry,
                                      Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman's Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the campaign to end. His interest, and his rosters, apply to Antietam and reflect Sept. 17, not much else. His OOB for the 17th suggests McClellan had a lot of cavalry, but much of it joined him after marching from Washington, some as late as the 17th. In fact, my memory is that Lee had more cavalry than McClellan until the 17th of Sept. when some of the units escaping from Harpers Ferry joined the AoP. That disparity will have an impact on effectiveness of scouting and intelligence gathering.
                                      You probably already knew this, but just in case you didn't...


                                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                      Professor of History
                                      Hagerstown Community College


                                      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 4:11 PM >>>
                                      I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                      going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                      work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                      idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                      that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                      discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                      13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                      I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                      write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                      cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                      have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                      (and of course vice-versa).

                                      Larry F.


                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                      >
                                      > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                      of the
                                      > AoNV than vice versa.
                                      >
                                      > Harry
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                      at
                                      > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                      > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                      >
                                      > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                      Campaign
                                      > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                      >
                                      > Larry F.
                                      >
                                      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                      > thing that
                                      > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                      > promptly offset
                                      > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                      > >
                                      > > Harry
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > yahoogroups.com] On
                                      > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                      > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                      thought
                                      > the
                                      > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                      that
                                      > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                      > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                      > surrender
                                      > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                      > Lee and
                                      > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                      > him.
                                      > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                      > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                      > > Professor of History
                                      > > Hagerstown Community College
                                      > >
                                      > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                      > 40yahoo.com>
                                      > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                      > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                      troopers
                                      > at
                                      > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                      > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                      > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                      > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                      Hampton's
                                      > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                      > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                      > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                      > > >
                                      > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                      > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                      > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                      from
                                      > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                      > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                      > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                      > > > Heights
                                      > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                      to
                                      > > > dig
                                      > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                      > > > south
                                      > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                      > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                      > > > > but
                                      > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                      > > > > not
                                      > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                      other
                                      > > > than
                                      > > > > for the 17th.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                      > > > > until
                                      > > > > late January.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Larry
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                      > > > > <clemenst@>
                                      > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                      > > > Attacks!
                                      > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                      > > > > > was
                                      > > > > written
                                      > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                      > > > > > Professor of History
                                      > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                      > > > > > Larry,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                      > > > > > book on
                                      > > > > > Harper's
                                      > > > > > Ferry > >
                                      > > > > > Harry
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com]
                                      > > > > > On
                                      > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                      > > > > > Sent:
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • eighth_conn_inf
                                      Jake, Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a great head start
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Jake,

                                        Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And
                                        thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a
                                        great head start on my paper.

                                        I have read that D.H. Hill did not write much about Antietam except
                                        what he did for B&L so I guess there is no use to get anything else
                                        by/about him? Obviously unpublished letters, etc., you mentioned
                                        might have some good stuff about his experiences with Stuart and R.E.
                                        Lee.

                                        Larry F.

                                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                                        <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection
                                        in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll
                                        be happy to get it for you.
                                        >
                                        > ---jgp
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                        >
                                        > Jake,
                                        >
                                        > I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's
                                        remarks.
                                        >
                                        > Thank you,
                                        > Larry F.
                                        >
                                        > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                                        > <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Larry:
                                        > >
                                        > > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                                        > sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death)
                                        regarding
                                        > cavalry in the camapign.
                                        > >
                                        > > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                                        > remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                                        > papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY
                                        issue,
                                        > I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                                        > Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                                        > interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                                        > afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                                        > Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                                        > >
                                        > > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving
                                        a
                                        > glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                                        > made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                                        > be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                                        > >
                                        > > --jake
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
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                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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