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Re: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

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  • Joseph Pierro
    Larry: There s a map showing the regiments of the Union first line in Wayne Mahood, Written in Blood : A History of the 126th New York Infantry in the Civil
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 17, 2007
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      Larry:

      There's a map showing the regiments of the Union first line in Wayne Mahood, "Written in Blood": A History of the 126th New York Infantry in the Civil War (Hightstown, N.J.: Longstreet House, 1997), 34.

      --jake
      ----- Original Message ----
      From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47:05 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

      A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this date
      re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
      below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing the
      Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up empty
      there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
      actions.

      Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13 September
      On MH?

      Thanks,

      Larry F.





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Harry Smeltzer
      Larry, I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn s book on Harper s Ferry. Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 17, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Larry,

        I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on Harper's
        Ferry.

        Harry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



        A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this date
        re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
        below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing the
        Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up empty
        there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
        actions.

        Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13 September
        On MH?

        Thanks,

        Larry F.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thomas Clemens
        There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray s Stonewall Attacks! issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was written by Dennis Frye.
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 17, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall Attacks!
          issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was written
          by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.


          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
          Larry,

          I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
          Harper's
          Ferry.

          Harry

          -----Original Message-----
          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
          On
          Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



          A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this date
          re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
          below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing the
          Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up empty
          there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
          actions.

          Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13 September
          On MH?

          Thanks,

          Larry F.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Tom, Harry, and Jake, Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not have
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Tom, Harry, and Jake,

            Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but
            unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not
            have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other than
            for the 17th.

            BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me until
            late January.

            Larry

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall Attacks!
            > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was
            written
            > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
            >
            >
            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
            >
            >
            > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
            > Larry,
            >
            > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
            > Harper's
            > Ferry.
            >
            > Harry
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
            > On
            > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
            >
            >
            >
            > A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this
            date
            > re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
            > below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing
            the
            > Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up
            empty
            > there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
            > actions.
            >
            > Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13
            September
            > On MH?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Larry F.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • eighth_conn_inf
            My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland Heights but rather with McLaws as I m sure Carman details. I will have to dig out the details of
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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              My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland Heights
              but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to dig
              out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode south
              from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
              >
              > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
              >
              > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but
              > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not
              > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
              than
              > for the 17th.
              >
              > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me until
              > late January.
              >
              > Larry
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
              Attacks!
              > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was
              > written
              > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
              > >
              > >
              > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > Professor of History
              > > Hagerstown Community College
              > >
              > >
              > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
              > > Larry,
              > >
              > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
              > > Harper's
              > > Ferry.
              > >
              > > Harry
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
              > > On
              > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
              > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this
              > date
              > > re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
              > > below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing
              > the
              > > Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up
              > empty
              > > there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
              > > actions.
              > >
              > > Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13
              > September
              > > On MH?
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > >
              > > Larry F.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
            • G E Mayers
              Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox s Gap but then left...one of the reasons D H Hill had
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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                Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights


                My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                Heights
                but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                dig
                out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                south
                from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                >
                > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                >
                > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                > but
                > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                > not
                > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                than
                > for the 17th.
                >
                > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                > until
                > late January.
                >
                > Larry
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                > <clemenst@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                Attacks!
                > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                > > was
                > written
                > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                > >
                > >
                > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > Professor of History
                > > Hagerstown Community College
                > >
                > >
                > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                > > Larry,
                > >
                > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                > > book on
                > > Harper's
                > > Ferry > >
                > > Harry
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                > > On
                > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                > > Sent:
              • eighth_conn_inf
                I think after he rode south from Turner s and posted some troopers at Fox s he went to Crampton s Gap leaving more men--but not enough, then to McLaws. I m not
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                  Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                  then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                  actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                  Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                  activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                  > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                  > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                  >
                  >
                  > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                  > Heights
                  > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                  > dig
                  > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                  > south
                  > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                  > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                  > >
                  > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                  > > but
                  > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                  > > not
                  > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                  > than
                  > > for the 17th.
                  > >
                  > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                  > > until
                  > > late January.
                  > >
                  > > Larry
                  > >
                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                  > > <clemenst@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                  > Attacks!
                  > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                  > > > was
                  > > written
                  > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > > Professor of History
                  > > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                  > > > Larry,
                  > > >
                  > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                  > > > book on
                  > > > Harper's
                  > > > Ferry > >
                  > > > Harry
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                  > > > On
                  > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  > > > Sent:
                  >
                • Thomas Clemens
                  After leaving Crampton s Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that day, he was wrong.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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                    After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
                    real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                    day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                    McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
                    reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
                    galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
                    Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                    Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.


                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College


                    >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                    I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                    Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                    then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                    actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                    Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                    activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                    > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                    > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                    >
                    >
                    > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                    > Heights
                    > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                    > dig
                    > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                    > south
                    > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                    > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                    > >
                    > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                    > > but
                    > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                    > > not
                    > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                    > than
                    > > for the 17th.
                    > >
                    > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                    > > until
                    > > late January.
                    > >
                    > > Larry
                    > >
                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                    > > <clemenst@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                    > Attacks!
                    > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                    > > > was
                    > > written
                    > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > > > Professor of History
                    > > > Hagerstown Community College
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                    > > > Larry,
                    > > >
                    > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                    > > > book on
                    > > > Harper's
                    > > > Ferry > >
                    > > > Harry
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                    > > > On
                    > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    > > > Sent:
                    >
                  • Harry Smeltzer
                    I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset by
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that
                      saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset
                      by firing that damn howitzer again!

                      Harry



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                      After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
                      real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                      day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                      McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
                      reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
                      galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
                      Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                      Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.

                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College

                      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%40yahoo.com>
                      inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                      I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                      Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                      then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                      actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                      Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                      activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.

                      --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                      > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                      > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >
                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                      > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      >
                      >
                      > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                      > Heights
                      > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                      > dig
                      > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                      > south
                      > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                      > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                      > >
                      > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                      > > but
                      > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                      > > not
                      > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                      > than
                      > > for the 17th.
                      > >
                      > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                      > > until
                      > > late January.
                      > >
                      > > Larry
                      > >
                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                      > > <clemenst@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                      > Attacks!
                      > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                      > > > was
                      > > written
                      > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > > Professor of History
                      > > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                      > > > Larry,
                      > > >
                      > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                      > > > book on
                      > > > Harper's
                      > > > Ferry > >
                      > > > Harry
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com
                      > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com]
                      > > > On
                      > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      > > > Sent:
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • eighth_conn_inf
                      Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three occasions to the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
                        ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                        occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

                        Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
                        but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

                        Larry F.


                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                        thing that
                        > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                        promptly offset
                        > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                        >
                        > Harry
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
                        the
                        > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                        > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                        > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                        surrender
                        > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                        Lee and
                        > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                        him.
                        > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                        > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                        >
                        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > Professor of History
                        > Hagerstown Community College
                        >
                        > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                        40yahoo.com>
                        > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                        > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
                        at
                        > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                        > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                        > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                        > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                        > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                        > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                        > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                        > >
                        > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        > >
                        > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                        > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                        > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                        > > Heights
                        > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                        > > dig
                        > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                        > > south
                        > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                        > >
                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                        > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                        > > >
                        > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                        > > > but
                        > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                        > > > not
                        > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                        > > than
                        > > > for the 17th.
                        > > >
                        > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                        > > > until
                        > > > late January.
                        > > >
                        > > > Larry
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                        > > > <clemenst@>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                        > > Attacks!
                        > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                        > > > > was
                        > > > written
                        > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > > > Professor of History
                        > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                        > > > > Larry,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                        > > > > book on
                        > > > > Harper's
                        > > > > Ferry > >
                        > > > > Harry
                        > > > >
                        > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com
                        > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com]
                        > > > > On
                        > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        > > > > Sent:
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Harry Smeltzer
                        I d say that s damning him with slight praise. And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the AoNV than vice versa. Harry ... From:
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.

                          And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the
                          AoNV than vice versa.

                          Harry

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                          Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
                          ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                          occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

                          Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
                          but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

                          Larry F.

                          --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                          thing that
                          > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                          promptly offset
                          > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                          >
                          > Harry
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com] On
                          > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                          > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
                          the
                          > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                          > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                          > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                          surrender
                          > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                          Lee and
                          > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                          him.
                          > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                          > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                          >
                          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > Professor of History
                          > Hagerstown Community College
                          >
                          > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                          40yahoo.com>
                          > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                          > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
                          at
                          > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                          > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                          > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                          > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                          > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                          > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                          > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                          > >
                          > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          > >
                          > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                          > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                          > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                          > > Heights
                          > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                          > > dig
                          > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                          > > south
                          > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                          > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                          > > >
                          > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                          > > > but
                          > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                          > > > not
                          > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                          > > than
                          > > > for the 17th.
                          > > >
                          > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                          > > > until
                          > > > late January.
                          > > >
                          > > > Larry
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          > > > <clemenst@>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                          > > Attacks!
                          > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                          > > > > was
                          > > > written
                          > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > > > Professor of History
                          > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                          > > > > Larry,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                          > > > > book on
                          > > > > Harper's
                          > > > > Ferry > >
                          > > > > Harry
                          > > > >
                          > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com
                          > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com]
                          > > > > On
                          > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                          > > > > Sent:
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • eighth_conn_inf
                          I agree that neither side s cavalry did a great job scouting but I m going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I work on my next
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                            going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                            work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                            idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                            that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                            discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                            13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                            I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                            write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                            cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                            have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                            (and of course vice-versa).

                            Larry F.


                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                            >
                            > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                            of the
                            > AoNV than vice versa.
                            >
                            > Harry
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                            > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                            at
                            > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                            > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                            >
                            > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                            Campaign
                            > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                            >
                            > Larry F.
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                            > thing that
                            > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                            > promptly offset
                            > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                            > >
                            > > Harry
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com] On
                            > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                            > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                            > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                            thought
                            > the
                            > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                            that
                            > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                            > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                            > surrender
                            > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                            > Lee and
                            > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                            > him.
                            > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                            > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                            > >
                            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            > > Professor of History
                            > > Hagerstown Community College
                            > >
                            > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                            > 40yahoo.com>
                            > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                            > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                            troopers
                            > at
                            > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                            > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                            > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                            > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                            Hampton's
                            > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                            > >
                            > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                            > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                            > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                            > > >
                            > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            > > >
                            > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                            from
                            > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                            > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                            > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                            > > > Heights
                            > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                            to
                            > > > dig
                            > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                            > > > south
                            > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                            > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                            > > > > but
                            > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                            > > > > not
                            > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                            other
                            > > > than
                            > > > > for the 17th.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                            > > > > until
                            > > > > late January.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Larry
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                            > > > > <clemenst@>
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                            > > > Attacks!
                            > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                            > > > > > was
                            > > > > written
                            > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            > > > > > Professor of History
                            > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                            > > > > > Larry,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                            > > > > > book on
                            > > > > > Harper's
                            > > > > > Ferry > >
                            > > > > > Harry
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > yahoogroups.com]
                            > > > > > On
                            > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                            > > > > > Sent:
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Joseph Pierro
                            Larry: You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Larry:

                              You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the camapign.

                              I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue, I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman, interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)

                              There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should be able to direct you to anything worth examining.

                              --jake


                              ____________________________________________________________________________________
                              Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                              Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • eighth_conn_inf
                              Jake, I ordered Bridge s book and will plan to check it for Hill s remarks. Thank you, Larry F. ... sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death)
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Jake,

                                I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                                Thank you,
                                Larry F.


                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                                <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Larry:
                                >
                                > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                                sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                                cavalry in the camapign.
                                >
                                > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                                remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                                papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                                I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                                Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                                interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                                afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                                Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                                >
                                > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                                glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                                made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                                be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                                >
                                > --jake
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                ______________________________________________________________________
                                ______________
                                > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Joseph Pierro
                                Cool. If it turns out there s something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I ll be happy to get it for
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll be happy to get it for you.

                                  ---jgp


                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                                  Jake,

                                  I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                                  Thank you,
                                  Larry F.

                                  --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                                  <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Larry:
                                  >
                                  > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                                  sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                                  cavalry in the camapign.
                                  >
                                  > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                                  remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                                  papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                                  I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                                  Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                                  interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                                  afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                                  Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                                  >
                                  > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                                  glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                                  made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                                  be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                                  >
                                  > --jake
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                  ____________ __
                                  > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                  > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                  http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >





                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                  http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Harry Smeltzer
                                  I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was unaware of the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                                    the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                                    unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                                    prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                                    him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                                    he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                                    day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                                    Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                                    discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                                    again:

                                    http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums
                                    <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0>
                                    &file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0

                                    Harry



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                                    I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                    going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                    work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                    idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                    that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                    discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                    13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                    I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                    write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                    cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                    have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                    (and of course vice-versa).

                                    Larry F.

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                    >
                                    > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                    of the
                                    > AoNV than vice versa.
                                    >
                                    > Harry
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                    > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                    at
                                    > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                    > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                    >
                                    > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                    Campaign
                                    > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                    >
                                    > Larry F.
                                    >
                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                    > thing that
                                    > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                    > promptly offset
                                    > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                    > >
                                    > > Harry
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                    > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                    thought
                                    > the
                                    > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                    that
                                    > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                    > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                    > surrender
                                    > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                    > Lee and
                                    > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                    > him.
                                    > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                    > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    > > Professor of History
                                    > > Hagerstown Community College
                                    > >
                                    > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                    > 40yahoo.com>
                                    > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                    > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                    troopers
                                    > at
                                    > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                    > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                    > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                    > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                    Hampton's
                                    > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                    > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                    > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                    > > >
                                    > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                    > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                    from
                                    > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                    > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                    > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                    > > > Heights
                                    > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                    to
                                    > > > dig
                                    > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                    > > > south
                                    > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                    > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                    > > > > but
                                    > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                    > > > > not
                                    > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                    other
                                    > > > than
                                    > > > > for the 17th.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                    > > > > until
                                    > > > > late January.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Larry
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                    > > > > <clemenst@>
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                    > > > Attacks!
                                    > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                    > > > > > was
                                    > > > > written
                                    > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    > > > > > Professor of History
                                    > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                    > > > > > Larry,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                    > > > > > book on
                                    > > > > > Harper's
                                    > > > > > Ferry > >
                                    > > > > > Harry
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > yahoogroups.com]
                                    > > > > > On
                                    > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                    > > > > > Sent:
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Harry Smeltzer
                                    Larry, Hmm.looks like that link doesn t take you all the way to the discussion. Try this: Click
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Larry,

                                      Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the discussion.
                                      Try this:

                                      Click
                                      <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                                      file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

                                      If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you get to
                                      the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for Stuart
                                      in the Maryland Campaign thread.

                                      Harry



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                                      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                                      I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                                      the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                                      unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                                      prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                                      him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                                      he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                                      day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                                      Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                                      discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                                      again:






                                      Harry

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                                      To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                                      I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                      going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                      work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                      idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                      that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                      discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                      13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                      I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                      write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                      cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                      have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                      (and of course vice-versa).

                                      Larry F.

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                      >
                                      > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                      of the
                                      > AoNV than vice versa.
                                      >
                                      > Harry
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com] On
                                      > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                      > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                      at
                                      > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                      > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                      >
                                      > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                      Campaign
                                      > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                      >
                                      > Larry F.
                                      >
                                      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                      > thing that
                                      > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                      > promptly offset
                                      > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                      > >
                                      > > Harry
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > yahoogroups.com] On
                                      > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                      > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                      thought
                                      > the
                                      > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                      that
                                      > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                      > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                      > surrender
                                      > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                      > Lee and
                                      > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                      > him.
                                      > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                      > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                      > > Professor of History
                                      > > Hagerstown Community College
                                      > >
                                      > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                      > 40yahoo.com>
                                      > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                      > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                      troopers
                                      > at
                                      > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                      > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                      > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                      > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                      Hampton's
                                      > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                      > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                      > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                      > > >
                                      > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                      > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                      > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                      from
                                      > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                      > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                      > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                      > > > Heights
                                      > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                      to
                                      > > > dig
                                      > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                      > > > south
                                      > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                      > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                      > > > > but
                                      > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                      > > > > not
                                      > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                      other
                                      > > > than
                                      > > > > for the 17th.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                      > > > > until
                                      > > > > late January.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Larry
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                      > > > > <clemenst@>
                                      > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                      > > > Attacks!
                                      > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                      > > > > > was
                                      > > > > written
                                      > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                      > > > > > Professor of History
                                      > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                      > > > > > Larry,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                      > > > > > book on
                                      > > > > > Harper's
                                      > > > > > Ferry > >
                                      > > > > > Harry
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com]
                                      > > > > > On
                                      > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                      > > > > > Sent:
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Thomas Clemens
                                      Larry, Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman s Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Larry,
                                        Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman's Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the campaign to end. His interest, and his rosters, apply to Antietam and reflect Sept. 17, not much else. His OOB for the 17th suggests McClellan had a lot of cavalry, but much of it joined him after marching from Washington, some as late as the 17th. In fact, my memory is that Lee had more cavalry than McClellan until the 17th of Sept. when some of the units escaping from Harpers Ferry joined the AoP. That disparity will have an impact on effectiveness of scouting and intelligence gathering.
                                        You probably already knew this, but just in case you didn't...


                                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                        Professor of History
                                        Hagerstown Community College


                                        >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 4:11 PM >>>
                                        I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                        going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                        work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                        idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                        that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                        discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                        13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                        I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                        write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                        cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                        have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                        (and of course vice-versa).

                                        Larry F.


                                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                        >
                                        > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                        of the
                                        > AoNV than vice versa.
                                        >
                                        > Harry
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                        at
                                        > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                        > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                        >
                                        > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                        Campaign
                                        > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                        >
                                        > Larry F.
                                        >
                                        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                        > thing that
                                        > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                        > promptly offset
                                        > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                        > >
                                        > > Harry
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com
                                        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com] On
                                        > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                        > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                        > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                        thought
                                        > the
                                        > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                        that
                                        > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                        > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                        > surrender
                                        > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                        > Lee and
                                        > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                        > him.
                                        > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                        > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                        > > Professor of History
                                        > > Hagerstown Community College
                                        > >
                                        > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                        > 40yahoo.com>
                                        > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                        > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                        troopers
                                        > at
                                        > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                        > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                        > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                        > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                        Hampton's
                                        > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                        > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                        > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                        > > >
                                        > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                        > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                        > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                        from
                                        > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                        > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                        > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                        > > > Heights
                                        > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                        to
                                        > > > dig
                                        > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                        > > > south
                                        > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                        > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                        > > > > but
                                        > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                        > > > > not
                                        > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                        other
                                        > > > than
                                        > > > > for the 17th.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                        > > > > until
                                        > > > > late January.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Larry
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                        > > > > <clemenst@>
                                        > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                        > > > Attacks!
                                        > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                        > > > > > was
                                        > > > > written
                                        > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                        > > > > > Professor of History
                                        > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                        > > > > > Larry,
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                        > > > > > book on
                                        > > > > > Harper's
                                        > > > > > Ferry > >
                                        > > > > > Harry
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com]
                                        > > > > > On
                                        > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                        > > > > > Sent:
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • eighth_conn_inf
                                        Jake, Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a great head start
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Jake,

                                          Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And
                                          thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a
                                          great head start on my paper.

                                          I have read that D.H. Hill did not write much about Antietam except
                                          what he did for B&L so I guess there is no use to get anything else
                                          by/about him? Obviously unpublished letters, etc., you mentioned
                                          might have some good stuff about his experiences with Stuart and R.E.
                                          Lee.

                                          Larry F.

                                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                                          <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection
                                          in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll
                                          be happy to get it for you.
                                          >
                                          > ---jgp
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message ----
                                          > From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                          >
                                          > Jake,
                                          >
                                          > I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's
                                          remarks.
                                          >
                                          > Thank you,
                                          > Larry F.
                                          >
                                          > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                                          > <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Larry:
                                          > >
                                          > > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                                          > sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death)
                                          regarding
                                          > cavalry in the camapign.
                                          > >
                                          > > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                                          > remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                                          > papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY
                                          issue,
                                          > I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                                          > Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                                          > interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                                          > afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                                          > Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                                          > >
                                          > > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving
                                          a
                                          > glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                                          > made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                                          > be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                                          > >
                                          > > --jake
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
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                                          >
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