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13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this date re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and below. I haven t found
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 17, 2007
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      A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this date
      re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
      below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing the
      Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up empty
      there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
      actions.

      Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13 September
      On MH?

      Thanks,

      Larry F.
    • Joseph Pierro
      Larry: There s a map showing the regiments of the Union first line in Wayne Mahood, Written in Blood : A History of the 126th New York Infantry in the Civil
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 17, 2007
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        Larry:

        There's a map showing the regiments of the Union first line in Wayne Mahood, "Written in Blood": A History of the 126th New York Infantry in the Civil War (Hightstown, N.J.: Longstreet House, 1997), 34.

        --jake
        ----- Original Message ----
        From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47:05 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

        A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this date
        re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
        below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing the
        Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up empty
        there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
        actions.

        Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13 September
        On MH?

        Thanks,

        Larry F.





        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        Be a better friend, newshound, and
        know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Harry Smeltzer
        Larry, I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn s book on Harper s Ferry. Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 17, 2007
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          Larry,

          I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on Harper's
          Ferry.

          Harry

          -----Original Message-----
          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



          A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this date
          re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
          below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing the
          Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up empty
          there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
          actions.

          Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13 September
          On MH?

          Thanks,

          Larry F.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Thomas Clemens
          There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray s Stonewall Attacks! issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was written by Dennis Frye.
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 17, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall Attacks!
            issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was written
            by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.


            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College


            >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
            Larry,

            I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
            Harper's
            Ferry.

            Harry

            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
            On
            Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



            A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this date
            re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
            below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing the
            Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up empty
            there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
            actions.

            Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13 September
            On MH?

            Thanks,

            Larry F.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Tom, Harry, and Jake, Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not have
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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              Tom, Harry, and Jake,

              Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but
              unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not
              have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other than
              for the 17th.

              BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me until
              late January.

              Larry

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall Attacks!
              > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was
              written
              > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
              >
              >
              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >
              >
              > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
              > Larry,
              >
              > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
              > Harper's
              > Ferry.
              >
              > Harry
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
              > On
              > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
              >
              >
              >
              > A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this
              date
              > re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
              > below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing
              the
              > Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up
              empty
              > there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
              > actions.
              >
              > Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13
              September
              > On MH?
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Larry F.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • eighth_conn_inf
              My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland Heights but rather with McLaws as I m sure Carman details. I will have to dig out the details of
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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                My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland Heights
                but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to dig
                out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode south
                from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                >
                > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                >
                > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G but
                > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does not
                > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                than
                > for the 17th.
                >
                > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me until
                > late January.
                >
                > Larry
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                Attacks!
                > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It was
                > written
                > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                > >
                > >
                > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > Professor of History
                > > Hagerstown Community College
                > >
                > >
                > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                > > Larry,
                > >
                > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's book on
                > > Harper's
                > > Ferry.
                > >
                > > Harry
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                > > On
                > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                > > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:47 PM
                > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > A question has come up about any maps showing the actions on this
                > date
                > > re McLaws on Maryland Heights perhaps to the regimental level and
                > > below. I haven't found any article in N&S showing McLaws pushing
                > the
                > > Union off the heights. I quickly checked B&G and CWI and came up
                > empty
                > > there, too. None of my Antietam books nor the CC maps show these
                > > actions.
                > >
                > > Any suggestions for any extant maps showing the units on 13
                > September
                > > On MH?
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > >
                > > Larry F.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • G E Mayers
                Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox s Gap but then left...one of the reasons D H Hill had
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 18, 2007
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                  Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                  14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                  of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights


                  My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                  Heights
                  but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                  dig
                  out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                  south
                  from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                  <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                  >
                  > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                  > but
                  > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                  > not
                  > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                  than
                  > for the 17th.
                  >
                  > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                  > until
                  > late January.
                  >
                  > Larry
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                  > <clemenst@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                  Attacks!
                  > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                  > > was
                  > written
                  > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > Professor of History
                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                  > > Larry,
                  > >
                  > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                  > > book on
                  > > Harper's
                  > > Ferry > >
                  > > Harry
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                  > > On
                  > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  > > Sent:
                • eighth_conn_inf
                  I think after he rode south from Turner s and posted some troopers at Fox s he went to Crampton s Gap leaving more men--but not enough, then to McLaws. I m not
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
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                    I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                    Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                    then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                    actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                    Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                    activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                    > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                    > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                    >
                    >
                    > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                    > Heights
                    > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                    > dig
                    > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                    > south
                    > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                    > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                    > >
                    > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                    > > but
                    > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                    > > not
                    > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                    > than
                    > > for the 17th.
                    > >
                    > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                    > > until
                    > > late January.
                    > >
                    > > Larry
                    > >
                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                    > > <clemenst@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                    > Attacks!
                    > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                    > > > was
                    > > written
                    > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > > > Professor of History
                    > > > Hagerstown Community College
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                    > > > Larry,
                    > > >
                    > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                    > > > book on
                    > > > Harper's
                    > > > Ferry > >
                    > > > Harry
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                    > > > On
                    > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    > > > Sent:
                    >
                  • Thomas Clemens
                    After leaving Crampton s Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that day, he was wrong.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
                      real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                      day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                      McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
                      reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
                      galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
                      Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                      Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.


                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College


                      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                      I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                      Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                      then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                      actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                      Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                      activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.


                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                      > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                      > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >
                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                      >
                      >
                      > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                      > Heights
                      > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                      > dig
                      > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                      > south
                      > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                      > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                      > >
                      > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                      > > but
                      > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                      > > not
                      > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                      > than
                      > > for the 17th.
                      > >
                      > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                      > > until
                      > > late January.
                      > >
                      > > Larry
                      > >
                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                      > > <clemenst@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                      > Attacks!
                      > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                      > > > was
                      > > written
                      > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > > Professor of History
                      > > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                      > > > Larry,
                      > > >
                      > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                      > > > book on
                      > > > Harper's
                      > > > Ferry > >
                      > > > Harry
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                      > > > On
                      > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                      > > > Sent:
                      >
                    • Harry Smeltzer
                      I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset by
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only thing that
                        saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he promptly offset
                        by firing that damn howitzer again!

                        Harry



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                        After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought the
                        real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                        day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                        McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the surrender
                        reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to Lee and
                        galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached him.
                        Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                        Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.

                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        Professor of History
                        Hagerstown Community College

                        >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%40yahoo.com>
                        inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                        I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers at
                        Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                        then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                        actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                        Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                        activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.

                        --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                        > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                        > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                        >
                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                        >
                        >
                        > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                        > Heights
                        > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                        > dig
                        > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                        > south
                        > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                        > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                        > >
                        > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                        > > but
                        > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                        > > not
                        > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                        > than
                        > > for the 17th.
                        > >
                        > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                        > > until
                        > > late January.
                        > >
                        > > Larry
                        > >
                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                        > > <clemenst@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                        > Attacks!
                        > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                        > > > was
                        > > written
                        > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > > Professor of History
                        > > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                        > > > Larry,
                        > > >
                        > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                        > > > book on
                        > > > Harper's
                        > > > Ferry > >
                        > > > Harry
                        > > >
                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com
                        > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com]
                        > > > On
                        > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        > > > Sent:
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • eighth_conn_inf
                        Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three occasions to the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
                          ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                          occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

                          Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
                          but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

                          Larry F.


                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                          thing that
                          > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                          promptly offset
                          > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                          >
                          > Harry
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
                          the
                          > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                          > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                          > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                          surrender
                          > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                          Lee and
                          > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                          him.
                          > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                          > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                          >
                          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > Professor of History
                          > Hagerstown Community College
                          >
                          > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                          40yahoo.com>
                          > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                          > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
                          at
                          > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                          > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                          > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                          > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                          > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                          > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                          > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                          > >
                          > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          > >
                          > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                          > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                          > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                          > > Heights
                          > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                          > > dig
                          > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                          > > south
                          > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                          > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                          > > >
                          > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                          > > > but
                          > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                          > > > not
                          > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                          > > than
                          > > > for the 17th.
                          > > >
                          > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                          > > > until
                          > > > late January.
                          > > >
                          > > > Larry
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          > > > <clemenst@>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                          > > Attacks!
                          > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                          > > > > was
                          > > > written
                          > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > > > Professor of History
                          > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                          > > > > Larry,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                          > > > > book on
                          > > > > Harper's
                          > > > > Ferry > >
                          > > > > Harry
                          > > > >
                          > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com
                          > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com]
                          > > > > On
                          > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                          > > > > Sent:
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Harry Smeltzer
                          I d say that s damning him with slight praise. And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the AoNV than vice versa. Harry ... From:
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.

                            And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity of the
                            AoNV than vice versa.

                            Harry

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                            Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that at
                            ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                            occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.

                            Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland Campaign
                            but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.

                            Larry F.

                            --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                            thing that
                            > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                            promptly offset
                            > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                            >
                            > Harry
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                            > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                            > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he thought
                            the
                            > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else that
                            > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                            > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                            surrender
                            > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                            Lee and
                            > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                            him.
                            > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                            > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                            >
                            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            > Professor of History
                            > Hagerstown Community College
                            >
                            > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                            40yahoo.com>
                            > inf@...> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                            > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some troopers
                            at
                            > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                            > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                            > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                            > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and Hampton's
                            > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                            > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                            > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                            > >
                            > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            > >
                            > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                            > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                            > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                            > > Heights
                            > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have to
                            > > dig
                            > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                            > > south
                            > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                            > >
                            > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                            > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                            > > >
                            > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                            > > > but
                            > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                            > > > not
                            > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps other
                            > > than
                            > > > for the 17th.
                            > > >
                            > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                            > > > until
                            > > > late January.
                            > > >
                            > > > Larry
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                            > > > <clemenst@>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                            > > Attacks!
                            > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                            > > > > was
                            > > > written
                            > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            > > > > Professor of History
                            > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                            > > > > Larry,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                            > > > > book on
                            > > > > Harper's
                            > > > > Ferry > >
                            > > > > Harry
                            > > > >
                            > > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com
                            > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com]
                            > > > > On
                            > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                            > > > > Sent:
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • eighth_conn_inf
                            I agree that neither side s cavalry did a great job scouting but I m going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I work on my next
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                              going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                              work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                              idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                              that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                              discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                              13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                              I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                              write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                              cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                              have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                              (and of course vice-versa).

                              Larry F.


                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                              >
                              > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                              of the
                              > AoNV than vice versa.
                              >
                              > Harry
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                              > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                              at
                              > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                              > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                              >
                              > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                              Campaign
                              > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                              >
                              > Larry F.
                              >
                              > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                              > thing that
                              > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                              > promptly offset
                              > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                              > >
                              > > Harry
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > yahoogroups.com] On
                              > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                              > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                              > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                              thought
                              > the
                              > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                              that
                              > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                              > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                              > surrender
                              > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                              > Lee and
                              > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                              > him.
                              > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                              > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                              > >
                              > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              > > Professor of History
                              > > Hagerstown Community College
                              > >
                              > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                              > 40yahoo.com>
                              > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                              > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                              troopers
                              > at
                              > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                              > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                              > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                              > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                              Hampton's
                              > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                              > >
                              > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                              > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                              > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                              > > >
                              > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                              > > >
                              > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                              from
                              > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                              > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                              > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                              > > > Heights
                              > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                              to
                              > > > dig
                              > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                              > > > south
                              > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                              > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                              > > > > but
                              > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                              > > > > not
                              > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                              other
                              > > > than
                              > > > > for the 17th.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                              > > > > until
                              > > > > late January.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Larry
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                              > > > > <clemenst@>
                              > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                              > > > Attacks!
                              > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                              > > > > > was
                              > > > > written
                              > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              > > > > > Professor of History
                              > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                              > > > > > Larry,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                              > > > > > book on
                              > > > > > Harper's
                              > > > > > Ferry > >
                              > > > > > Harry
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com]
                              > > > > > On
                              > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                              > > > > > Sent:
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Joseph Pierro
                              Larry: You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Larry:

                                You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding cavalry in the camapign.

                                I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue, I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman, interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)

                                There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should be able to direct you to anything worth examining.

                                --jake


                                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • eighth_conn_inf
                                Jake, I ordered Bridge s book and will plan to check it for Hill s remarks. Thank you, Larry F. ... sources (or at least ones that hadn t been quoted to death)
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Jake,

                                  I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                                  Thank you,
                                  Larry F.


                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                                  <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Larry:
                                  >
                                  > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                                  sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                                  cavalry in the camapign.
                                  >
                                  > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                                  remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                                  papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                                  I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                                  Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                                  interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                                  afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                                  Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                                  >
                                  > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                                  glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                                  made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                                  be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                                  >
                                  > --jake
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  ______________________________________________________________________
                                  ______________
                                  > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                  > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Joseph Pierro
                                  Cool. If it turns out there s something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I ll be happy to get it for
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll be happy to get it for you.

                                    ---jgp


                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                                    Jake,

                                    I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's remarks.

                                    Thank you,
                                    Larry F.

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                                    <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Larry:
                                    >
                                    > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                                    sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death) regarding
                                    cavalry in the camapign.
                                    >
                                    > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                                    remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                                    papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY issue,
                                    I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                                    Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                                    interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                                    afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                                    Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                                    >
                                    > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving a
                                    glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                                    made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                                    be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                                    >
                                    > --jake
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                    ____________ __
                                    > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                    > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                    http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >





                                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                    Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                    http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Harry Smeltzer
                                    I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was unaware of the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                                      the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                                      unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                                      prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                                      him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                                      he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                                      day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                                      Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                                      discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                                      again:

                                      http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums
                                      <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0>
                                      &file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0

                                      Harry



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                                      I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                      going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                      work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                      idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                      that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                      discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                      13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                      I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                      write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                      cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                      have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                      (and of course vice-versa).

                                      Larry F.

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                      >
                                      > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                      of the
                                      > AoNV than vice versa.
                                      >
                                      > Harry
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com] On
                                      > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                      > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                      at
                                      > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                      > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                      >
                                      > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                      Campaign
                                      > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                      >
                                      > Larry F.
                                      >
                                      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                      > thing that
                                      > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                      > promptly offset
                                      > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                      > >
                                      > > Harry
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > yahoogroups.com] On
                                      > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                      > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                      thought
                                      > the
                                      > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                      that
                                      > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                      > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                      > surrender
                                      > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                      > Lee and
                                      > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                      > him.
                                      > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                      > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                      > > Professor of History
                                      > > Hagerstown Community College
                                      > >
                                      > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                      > 40yahoo.com>
                                      > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                      > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                      troopers
                                      > at
                                      > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                      > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                      > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                      > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                      Hampton's
                                      > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                      > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                      > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                      > > >
                                      > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                      > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                      > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                      from
                                      > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                      > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                      > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                      > > > Heights
                                      > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                      to
                                      > > > dig
                                      > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                      > > > south
                                      > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                      > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                      > > > > but
                                      > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                      > > > > not
                                      > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                      other
                                      > > > than
                                      > > > > for the 17th.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                      > > > > until
                                      > > > > late January.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Larry
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                      > > > > <clemenst@>
                                      > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                      > > > Attacks!
                                      > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                      > > > > > was
                                      > > > > written
                                      > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                      > > > > > Professor of History
                                      > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                      > > > > > Larry,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                      > > > > > book on
                                      > > > > > Harper's
                                      > > > > > Ferry > >
                                      > > > > > Harry
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > yahoogroups.com]
                                      > > > > > On
                                      > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                      > > > > > Sent:
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Harry Smeltzer
                                      Larry, Hmm.looks like that link doesn t take you all the way to the discussion. Try this: Click
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 19, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Larry,

                                        Hmm.looks like that link doesn't take you all the way to the discussion.
                                        Try this:

                                        Click
                                        <http://cwdgonline.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&
                                        file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0> this

                                        If that doesn't work, click on the link I gave you earlier.once you get to
                                        the forums, click on the 1862 Maryland Campaign button, then look for Stuart
                                        in the Maryland Campaign thread.

                                        Harry



                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                                        Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:48 PM
                                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights



                                        I think that Lee lost the initiative in the campaign, as Harsh says, with
                                        the implementation of SO 191. I agree with his scenario that Lee was
                                        unaware of the proximity, disposition, and speed of movement of the AotP
                                        prior to the implementation, and that information should have been provided
                                        him by Stuart. But it wasn't. IIRC, at one point Stuart advised Lee that
                                        he expected Federal cavalry in Frederick in about a day or so, and the next
                                        day the vanguard of the INFANTRY entered the town.

                                        Maryland 1862 was far from a shining moment for JEB. Check out this
                                        discussion, since it will save me having to lay all of Harsh's work out
                                        again:






                                        Harry

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                        Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:12 PM
                                        To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights

                                        I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                        going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                        work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                        idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                        that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                        discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                        13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                        I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                        write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                        cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                        have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                        (and of course vice-versa).

                                        Larry F.

                                        --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                        >
                                        > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                        of the
                                        > AoNV than vice versa.
                                        >
                                        > Harry
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        yahoogroups.com] On
                                        > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                        > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                        at
                                        > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                        > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                        >
                                        > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                        Campaign
                                        > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                        >
                                        > Larry F.
                                        >
                                        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                        > thing that
                                        > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                        > promptly offset
                                        > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                        > >
                                        > > Harry
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com
                                        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com] On
                                        > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                        > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                        > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                        thought
                                        > the
                                        > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                        that
                                        > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                        > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                        > surrender
                                        > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                        > Lee and
                                        > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                        > him.
                                        > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                        > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                        > > Professor of History
                                        > > Hagerstown Community College
                                        > >
                                        > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                        > 40yahoo.com>
                                        > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                        > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                        troopers
                                        > at
                                        > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                        > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                        > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                        > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                        Hampton's
                                        > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                        > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                        > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                        > > >
                                        > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                        > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                        > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                        from
                                        > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                        > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                        > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                        > > > Heights
                                        > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                        to
                                        > > > dig
                                        > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                        > > > south
                                        > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                        > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                        > > > > but
                                        > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                        > > > > not
                                        > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                        other
                                        > > > than
                                        > > > > for the 17th.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                        > > > > until
                                        > > > > late January.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Larry
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                        > > > > <clemenst@>
                                        > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                        > > > Attacks!
                                        > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                        > > > > > was
                                        > > > > written
                                        > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                        > > > > > Professor of History
                                        > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                        > > > > > Larry,
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                        > > > > > book on
                                        > > > > > Harper's
                                        > > > > > Ferry > >
                                        > > > > > Harry
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > yahoogroups.com]
                                        > > > > > On
                                        > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                        > > > > > Sent:
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >

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                                      • Thomas Clemens
                                        Larry, Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman s Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                          Larry,
                                          Just as a general word of caution and advice, do not take Carman's Order of Battle, or those based on his work, as gospel from the beginning of the campaign to end. His interest, and his rosters, apply to Antietam and reflect Sept. 17, not much else. His OOB for the 17th suggests McClellan had a lot of cavalry, but much of it joined him after marching from Washington, some as late as the 17th. In fact, my memory is that Lee had more cavalry than McClellan until the 17th of Sept. when some of the units escaping from Harpers Ferry joined the AoP. That disparity will have an impact on effectiveness of scouting and intelligence gathering.
                                          You probably already knew this, but just in case you didn't...


                                          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                          Professor of History
                                          Hagerstown Community College


                                          >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 12/19/07 4:11 PM >>>
                                          I agree that neither side's cavalry did a great job scouting but I'm
                                          going to have to do more research with Carman and other sources as I
                                          work on my next paper before I can comment re which side had a better
                                          idea of the proximity of the other. Off the top of my head, part of
                                          that answer would depend on which day of the campaign is under
                                          discussion. Perhaps early on the ANV had a better idea but on/after
                                          13 Sept. the AOP may have known more.

                                          I will look carefully at what all the sources I can find say and
                                          write up my findings giving my opinion of the performance of the
                                          cavalry on both sides vis-a-vis what they did, what they could/should
                                          have done, and the effect their performances had on their commanders
                                          (and of course vice-versa).

                                          Larry F.


                                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I'd say that's damning him with slight praise.
                                          >
                                          > And even so, ultimately the AotP had a better idea of the proximity
                                          of the
                                          > AoNV than vice versa.
                                          >
                                          > Harry
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                          [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                          > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:39 PM
                                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Firing a gun then and before that on the Peninsula then after that
                                          at
                                          > ECF certainly announced his presence to the Federals on all three
                                          > occasions to the detriment of Lee especially on the Peninsula.
                                          >
                                          > Stuart's scouting/reconaissance was off during the Maryland
                                          Campaign
                                          > but better than Pleasanton's IMO as I argued in my paper on AotW.
                                          >
                                          > Larry F.
                                          >
                                          > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I think Stuart screwed the pooch in this campaign, and the only
                                          > thing that
                                          > > saved his rep was some good fighting on the 17th - which he
                                          > promptly offset
                                          > > by firing that damn howitzer again!
                                          > >
                                          > > Harry
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > yahoogroups.com
                                          > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > yahoogroups.com] On
                                          > > Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
                                          > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
                                          > > To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > After leaving Crampton's Gap Stuart rode south to where he
                                          thought
                                          > the
                                          > > real fighting would be, Weaverton Cliffs. Like everywhere else
                                          that
                                          > > day, he was wrong. He personally rode to MD Hts. to consult with
                                          > > McLaws, but his command stayerd in Weaverton. When news of the
                                          > surrender
                                          > > reached him he decided he needed to personally carry the news to
                                          > Lee and
                                          > > galloped off to Sharpsburg only to arrive after news had reached
                                          > him.
                                          > > Lee in fact snubbed him, see Taken at the Flood for details. THe
                                          > > Maryland Campaign is not the apogee of Stuart's career.
                                          > >
                                          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                          > > Professor of History
                                          > > Hagerstown Community College
                                          > >
                                          > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_ <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%
                                          > 40yahoo.com>
                                          > > inf@> 12/19/07 7:37 AM >>>
                                          > > I think after he rode south from Turner's and posted some
                                          troopers
                                          > at
                                          > > Fox's he went to Crampton's Gap leaving more men--but not enough,
                                          > > then to McLaws. I'm not clear on his and his remaining troopers
                                          > > actions during the time he was with/near McLaws around Maryland
                                          > > Heights. Hopefully Carman has good details about his and
                                          Hampton's
                                          > > activities before he returned to find Crampton's Gap lost.
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Actually, IIRC, Stuart was all over South Mountain on September
                                          > > > 14th....he was, for a time, up at Fox's Gap but then left...one
                                          > > > of the reasons D H Hill had such a "bad day" there...
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                          > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                          > > >
                                          > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                          > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                          > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                          from
                                          > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                                          > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 PM
                                          > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > My guess is that Stuart and his cavalry were not on Maryland
                                          > > > Heights
                                          > > > but rather with McLaws as I'm sure Carman details. I will have
                                          to
                                          > > > dig
                                          > > > out the details of his and Hampton's actions after Stuart rode
                                          > > > south
                                          > > > from Crampton's Gap on the 13th.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                          > > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tom, Harry, and Jake,
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Many thanks for these suggestions! I think I may have the B&G
                                          > > > > but
                                          > > > > unlikely the other two in my library. Too bad the LoC CC does
                                          > > > > not
                                          > > > > have any maps but from what I've read, he did not do maps
                                          other
                                          > > > than
                                          > > > > for the 17th.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > BTW, Amazon just told me that Jake's book won't be sent to me
                                          > > > > until
                                          > > > > late January.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Larry
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                          > > > > <clemenst@>
                                          > > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > There are regimental-level maps in Blue & Gray's Stonewall
                                          > > > Attacks!
                                          > > > > > issue dealing with the siege & capture of Harpers Ferry. It
                                          > > > > > was
                                          > > > > written
                                          > > > > > by Dennis Frye. Vol. V, Issue # 1, Aug-Sept. 1987.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                          > > > > > Professor of History
                                          > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> 12/17/07 10:30 PM >>>
                                          > > > > > Larry,
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I think there are regimental level maps in Chester Hearn's
                                          > > > > > book on
                                          > > > > > Harper's
                                          > > > > > Ferry > >
                                          > > > > > Harry
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > > > > From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > yahoogroups.com]
                                          > > > > > On
                                          > > > > > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                          > > > > > Sent:
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • eighth_conn_inf
                                          Jake, Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a great head start
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Dec 20, 2007
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                                            Jake,

                                            Thank you very much for this offer and I may take you up on it! And
                                            thank you again for the e-mails about your book. This will give me a
                                            great head start on my paper.

                                            I have read that D.H. Hill did not write much about Antietam except
                                            what he did for B&L so I guess there is no use to get anything else
                                            by/about him? Obviously unpublished letters, etc., you mentioned
                                            might have some good stuff about his experiences with Stuart and R.E.
                                            Lee.

                                            Larry F.

                                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                                            <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Cool. If it turns out there's something in a manuscript collection
                                            in Richmond (MoC, Lib Va, VHS) you need pulled, let me know and I'll
                                            be happy to get it for you.
                                            >
                                            > ---jgp
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message ----
                                            > From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:13:38 PM
                                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 13 September 1862 Maryland Heights
                                            >
                                            > Jake,
                                            >
                                            > I ordered Bridge's book and will plan to check it for Hill's
                                            remarks.
                                            >
                                            > Thank you,
                                            > Larry F.
                                            >
                                            > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                                            > <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Larry:
                                            > >
                                            > > You mentioned offline that you were looking for possible new
                                            > sources (or at least ones that hadn't been quoted to death)
                                            regarding
                                            > cavalry in the camapign.
                                            > >
                                            > > I don't know where you're located, but the Lib of Va has a
                                            > remarkable (and relatively little used) collection of D. H. Hill's
                                            > papers. Knowing Hill's inability to keep silent on nearly ANY
                                            issue,
                                            > I wonder if there's anything in his private correspondence about
                                            > Stuart's leaving him to twist in the wind at So. Mtn. (Carman,
                                            > interestingly enough, largely gives Stuart a pass on the whole
                                            > afffair.) Hill's always good for color. (His private comments about
                                            > Roswell Ripley at So. Mtn. are priceless.)
                                            > >
                                            > > There's a finding aid for the collection, but I'd start by giving
                                            a
                                            > glance at the old Hal Bridges bio (Lee's Maverick General). Bridges
                                            > made good use of the Lib of Va collection, and his citations should
                                            > be able to direct you to anything worth examining.
                                            > >
                                            > > --jake
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
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