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Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

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  • Stephen Recker
    The Virtual Antietam website has a keyword searchable database of all of the Maryland Campaign tablets including Turner s Pass, Crampton s Gap, Shepherdstown
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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      The Virtual Antietam website has a keyword searchable database of all
      of the Maryland Campaign tablets including Turner's Pass, Crampton's
      Gap, Shepherdstown Ford, Harper's Ferry, etc. It even includes the
      markers that were there at one time but are now missing. Enjoy.

      http://www.virtualantietam.com/

      None at Fox's Gap, though.

      Stephen Recker

      On Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 01:40 PM, joseph_pierro wrote:

      > Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
      > markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?
      >
    • Harry Smeltzer
      Nagle s first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863. He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of rank would
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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        Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
        He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
        rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
        nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
        3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

        So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

        This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

        Harry



        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
        Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade



        Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
        recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
        across from the Mountain House.

        I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
        Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
        BG.

        The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
        anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
        reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
        commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
        the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

        The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
        letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
        that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
        psychic or very presumptuous). That date must be when Lincoln finally got
        around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
        from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

        If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

        --jake

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstown
        <mailto:clemenst%40hagerstowncc.edu> cc.edu>
        To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

        There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
        Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
        memory.

        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College

        >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

        Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
        markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

        If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
        to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

        (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
        and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

        --jake

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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      • G E Mayers
        Dear Tom, Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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          Dear Tom,

          Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes?

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <RoteBaron@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
          brigade


          > Joe,
          >
          > The AoTW site has photos of the IX Corps tablets posted online.
          > I hope (but cannot be sure) that the list is all inclusive.
          > URL is: http://aotw.org/officers.php?unit_id=84
          >
          > You can also contact John Hoptak, who is an avid historian of
          > General Nagle. He is a ranger at Antietam. We're both
          > Schuylkill Countians, home of Nagle and the glorious 48th PA.
          >
          > Contact John via his blog at
          > http://48thpennsylvania.blogspot.com/
          >
          > Any date when the new Carman book will be published?
          >
          > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for
          > the ranger tours and SHAF events),_._,___
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • Harry Smeltzer
          Oops.that first commission expired 3/3/1863. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer Sent:
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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            Oops.that first commission expired 3/3/1863.



            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
            Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade



            Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
            He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
            rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
            nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
            3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

            So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

            This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

            Harry

            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
            Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

            Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
            recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
            across from the Mountain House.

            I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
            Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
            BG.

            The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
            anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
            reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
            commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
            the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

            The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
            letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
            that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
            psychic or very presumptuous). That date must be when Lincoln finally got
            around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
            from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

            If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

            --jake

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstown
            <mailto:clemenst%40hagerstowncc.edu> cc.edu>
            To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

            There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
            Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
            memory.

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College

            >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

            Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
            markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

            If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
            to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

            (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
            and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

            --jake

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            __________________________________________________________
            Got a little couch potato?
            Check out fun summer activities for kids.
            http://search.
            <http://search.
            <http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&
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            cs=bz> yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tom Shay
            Gerry, I need to invest in a digital recorder. The results using my old videotape recorder just aren t worth the effort. Tom Shay ... From: G E Mayers To:
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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              Gerry,

              I need to invest in a digital recorder.
              The results using my old videotape recorder just aren't worth the effort.

              Tom Shay

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: G E Mayers
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade


              Dear Tom,

              Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes?

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <RoteBaron@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
              brigade

              > Joe,
              >
              > The AoTW site has photos of the IX Corps tablets posted online.
              > I hope (but cannot be sure) that the list is all inclusive.
              > URL is: http://aotw.org/officers.php?unit_id=84
              >
              > You can also contact John Hoptak, who is an avid historian of
              > General Nagle. He is a ranger at Antietam. We're both
              > Schuylkill Countians, home of Nagle and the glorious 48th PA.
              >
              > Contact John via his blog at
              > http://48thpennsylvania.blogspot.com/
              >
              > Any date when the new Carman book will be published?
              >
              > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for
              > the ranger tours and SHAF events),_._,___
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joseph Pierro
              Harry, Thanks for that. I ve seen E & E, but I m not sure they have the right information. It s clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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                Harry,

                Thanks for that. I've seen E & E, but I'm not sure they have the right information. It's clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he was to take rank. What's NOT clear is whether or not Lincoln APPOINTED him on 9/10 (the appointment date and the date at which an officer take rank are not necessarily the same; the latter often predates the former). To date I haven't been able to find any primary document verifying that fact.

                If Lincoln DID appoint him in September 1862 (and it seems evident that he did), it wasn't premature for him to sign with the rank of a general officer. In the absence of a Congress, the appointment acts (and Richard Sommers at Carlise confirmed this for me) much like a recess appointment would today.

                Sometime between Sept. 10 and Sept. 20, word got to Nagle that he had been appointed a general officer (and from a source of credible enough authority that Sturgis took to referring to him as "Colonel (now General)" by Sept. 22.

                What I'm trying to find out (if the paper trail still exists) is WHERE and WHEN Nagle got that info in September 1862.

                --jake

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@...>
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26:20 PM
                Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                Harry

                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com] On
                Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                across from the Mountain House.

                I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                BG.

                The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                psychic or very presumptuous) . That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                --jake

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstow n
                <mailto:clemenst% 40hagerstowncc. edu> cc.edu>
                To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntieta m%40yahoogroups. com> yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                memory.

                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College

                >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                --jake

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                Got a little couch potato?
                Check out fun summer activities for kids.
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Harry Smeltzer
                Jake, Yes, I m aware that appointment dates and dates of rank are not necessarily the same. What I should have said was, according to Eicher & Eicher, the
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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                  Jake,

                  Yes, I'm aware that appointment dates and dates of rank are not necessarily the same. What I should have said was, according to Eicher & Eicher, the appointment date would have been the same as the date of rank. I'm assuming that the date of rank would have been included in the nomination sent to Congress.

                  Do you have any idea why the first nomination was not confirmed? I would imagine it probably had something to do with the fact that the nomination and backing recommendations had their genesis in McClellan's command.

                  Harry

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Joseph Pierro
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:56 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade


                  Harry,

                  Thanks for that. I've seen E & E, but I'm not sure they have the right information. It's clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he was to take rank. What's NOT clear is whether or not Lincoln APPOINTED him on 9/10 (the appointment date and the date at which an officer take rank are not necessarily the same; the latter often predates the former). To date I haven't been able to find any primary document verifying that fact.

                  If Lincoln DID appoint him in September 1862 (and it seems evident that he did), it wasn't premature for him to sign with the rank of a general officer. In the absence of a Congress, the appointment acts (and Richard Sommers at Carlise confirmed this for me) much like a recess appointment would today.

                  Sometime between Sept. 10 and Sept. 20, word got to Nagle that he had been appointed a general officer (and from a source of credible enough authority that Sturgis took to referring to him as "Colonel (now General)" by Sept. 22.

                  What I'm trying to find out (if the paper trail still exists) is WHERE and WHEN Nagle got that info in September 1862.

                  --jake

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@...>
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26:20 PM
                  Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                  Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                  He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                  rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                  nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                  3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                  So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                  This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                  Harry

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com] On
                  Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                  To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                  Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                  recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                  across from the Mountain House.

                  I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                  Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                  BG.

                  The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                  anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                  reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                  commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                  the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                  The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                  letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                  that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                  psychic or very presumptuous) . That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                  around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                  from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                  If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                  --jake

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstow n
                  <mailto:clemenst% 40hagerstowncc. edu> cc.edu>
                  To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntieta m%40yahoogroups. com> yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                  There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                  Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                  memory.

                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College

                  >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                  Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                  markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                  If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                  to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                  (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                  and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                  --jake

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  Got a little couch potato?
                  Check out fun summer activities for kids.
                  http://search.
                  <http://search. yahoo.com/ search?fr= oni_on_mail& p=summer+ activities+ for+kids&
                  cs=bz> yahoo.com/search? fr=oni_on_ mail&p=summer+ activities+ for+kids& cs=bz

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  __________________________________________________________
                  Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
                  http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Joseph Pierro
                  Harry: As it happened, the issue doesn t appear to have been anything particular to Nagle. (If it had, I suspect they would have just voted him down.) They
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
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                    Harry:

                    As it happened, the issue doesn't appear to have been anything particular to Nagle. (If it had, I suspect they would have just voted him down.) They turned an entire sheaf of promotions, without voting on any of them, back to Lincoln on proceedural grounds.

                    The record reads as follows:

                    "The Senate proceeded to consider the following report:

                    "'The Committee on Military Affairs and the Militia, to whom were referred the nominations of the several major-generals and brigadier-generals and hospital chaplains appointed since the last session of Congress, find no law authorizing said appointments, and recommend that the nominations be returned to the President; and

                    "'Resolved, That the Senate agree to the said report.'" (Senate Exec. Journal, 37th Cong., 3d sess., February 12, 1863, 128)

                    The nomination that went to Congress does indeed bear a date of rank (Sept. 10, 1862), but the communication itself, as I mentioned before, is dated December.

                    The available evidence is clear that Nagle had learned of his appointment (and hence was entitled to call himself a brigadier general) before the campaign ended. It is most likely, but not 100% certain, that he found out prior to going into action on Sept. 17.

                    Where the issue gets a bit cloudy, and hence why it would be of interest to know the date on which something was transmitted from Washington with the news that he had been appointed by the preisdent, concerns South Mountain.

                    In the narrative portion of Carman's manuscript, he never mentions Nagle by rank. (It's always, "Nagle's brigade," and the like.) Only in his Table of Organization does he give a rank, listing him as "Colonel." On the War Dept. tablet on the battlefield, however, Nagle is listed as a brigadier general, suggesting that Carman altered his views regarding Nagle's status on the 17th.

                    It is possible, however, that Nagle should be properly be designated as a colonel at South Mountain. Even if Lincoln did issue the commission on the same day that Nagle was to take rank (Sept. 10), the only available evidence to come to light thus far (the report of his division commander, Samuel Sturgis) suggests that word of the promotion had not yet reached the army prior to the fighting at Fox's Gap.

                    This would correspond to the manner in which the editors of the OR saw the issue. On their compiled list of casualties at South Mountain, Nagle appears as a colonel (v. 19, pt. 1, p. 186), while on the similar list for Antietam (v. 19, pt. 1, p. 197) he's listed as a brigadier general.







                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@...>
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:12:09 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                    Jake,

                    Yes, I'm aware that appointment dates and dates of rank are not necessarily the same. What I should have said was, according to Eicher & Eicher, the appointment date would have been the same as the date of rank. I'm assuming that the date of rank would have been included in the nomination sent to Congress.

                    Do you have any idea why the first nomination was not confirmed? I would imagine it probably had something to do with the fact that the nomination and backing recommendations had their genesis in McClellan's command.

                    Harry

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Joseph Pierro
                    To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:56 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                    Harry,

                    Thanks for that. I've seen E & E, but I'm not sure they have the right information. It's clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he was to take rank. What's NOT clear is whether or not Lincoln APPOINTED him on 9/10 (the appointment date and the date at which an officer take rank are not necessarily the same; the latter often predates the former). To date I haven't been able to find any primary document verifying that fact.

                    If Lincoln DID appoint him in September 1862 (and it seems evident that he did), it wasn't premature for him to sign with the rank of a general officer. In the absence of a Congress, the appointment acts (and Richard Sommers at Carlise confirmed this for me) much like a recess appointment would today.

                    Sometime between Sept. 10 and Sept. 20, word got to Nagle that he had been appointed a general officer (and from a source of credible enough authority that Sturgis took to referring to him as "Colonel (now General)" by Sept. 22.

                    What I'm trying to find out (if the paper trail still exists) is WHERE and WHEN Nagle got that info in September 1862.

                    --jake

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@comcast. net>
                    To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26:20 PM
                    Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                    Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                    He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                    rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                    nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                    3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                    So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                    This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                    Harry

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:TalkAntieta m@ yahoogroups. com] On
                    Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                    To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                    Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                    recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                    across from the Mountain House.

                    I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                    Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                    BG.

                    The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                    anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                    reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                    commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                    the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                    The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                    letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                    that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                    psychic or very presumptuous) . That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                    around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                    from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                    If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                    --jake

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstow n
                    <mailto:clemenst% 40hagerstowncc. edu> cc.edu>
                    To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntieta m%40yahoogroups. com> yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                    There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                    Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                    memory.

                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College

                    >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                    Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                    markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                    If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                    to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                    (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                    and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                    --jake

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                  • Joseph Pierro
                    Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn t realize someone had captured the remaining ones
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn't realize someone had captured the remaining ones from outside of the park boundary.


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:16:10 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                      The Virtual Antietam website has a keyword searchable database of all
                      of the Maryland Campaign tablets including Turner's Pass, Crampton's
                      Gap, Shepherdstown Ford, Harper's Ferry, etc. It even includes the
                      markers that were there at one time but are now missing. Enjoy.

                      http://www.virtuala ntietam.com/

                      None at Fox's Gap, though.

                      Stephen Recker

                      On Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 01:40 PM, joseph_pierro wrote:

                      > Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                      > markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?
                      >





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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Brian Downey
                      Hi Jake, For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren t actually tablet
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
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                        Hi Jake,

                        For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on
                        Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren't
                        actually tablet images, though Stephen's are. Mine are text --
                        formatted to look like tablets -- so the content is Google-searchable
                        and I have tablets with text for those long lost from the actual
                        battlefield (based on Carman/Heth's notes from the Archives). AotW
                        versions are also linked to maps and military units mentioned for
                        cross reference.

                        You want to look at what's actually on the field? Go see Stephen.

                        Brian

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam
                        battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn't realize someone had captured
                        the remaining ones from outside of the park boundary.
                      • Brian Downey
                        Hello Talk friends, I ll be at Sharpsburg and the Battlefield all day on Saturday. Alert the media :) Haven t set schedule, but will try to cram in as much as
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Talk friends,

                          I'll be at Sharpsburg and the Battlefield all day on Saturday. Alert
                          the media :) Haven't set schedule, but will try to cram in as much as
                          possible. I'll prob wear an AotW tee shirt - please give me an elbow
                          poke if I don't see you first. If you put your email address on your
                          forehead, I'll probably recognize that since I don't know many by face
                          ....

                          Brian

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I'll be arriving at Sharpsburg Saturday morning to work the SHAF
                          table at
                          > the festival for awhile. I'll probably stop at the VC first to pick
                          up tour
                          > schedule, and hope to go on at least one walk on Saturday and maybe
                          two on
                          > Sunday before I head back home. I'll be attending Ethan Rafuse's
                          talk on
                          > Saturday night. Hope to see fellow list members there.
                          >
                          > Harry
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          > Behalf Of RoteBaron@...
                          > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for the
                          ranger
                          > tours and SHAF events),_._,___
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Joseph Pierro
                          Well, you BOTH have rather remarkable websites. I m only sorry I hadn;t discovered Stephen s sooner. When people talk about digital history (the buzzword du
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Well, you BOTH have rather remarkable websites. I'm only sorry I hadn;t discovered Stephen's sooner.

                            When people talk about "digital history" (the buzzword du jour these days in college history departments), your sites represent the best of what the Web can offer.

                            --jake


                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Brian Downey <bdowney@...>
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:53:40 AM
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                            Hi Jake,

                            For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on
                            Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren't
                            actually tablet images, though Stephen's are. Mine are text --
                            formatted to look like tablets -- so the content is Google-searchable
                            and I have tablets with text for those long lost from the actual
                            battlefield (based on Carman/Heth' s notes from the Archives). AotW
                            versions are also linked to maps and military units mentioned for
                            cross reference.

                            You want to look at what's actually on the field? Go see Stephen.

                            Brian

                            --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@ ...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam
                            battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn't realize someone had captured
                            the remaining ones from outside of the park boundary.






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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Stephen Recker
                            Brian, No, YOU da man. Actually I do appreciate the kind words. Another thought about the differences in the two databases. Virtual Antietam is a simple
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Brian,

                              No, YOU da man.

                              Actually I do appreciate the kind words. Another thought about the
                              differences in the two databases. Virtual Antietam is a simple keyword
                              search of the text of the markers and monuments. You gotta know what
                              you are looking for, because if you keyword search for "Maryland" and
                              the marker says, MD, you are out of luck. AotW, on the other hand, is
                              an actual relational database that will parse out specific narrow
                              searches.

                              So if I am at a book show and I need to find out if the 16th Alaska
                              Dogsled Team was at Antietam, I fire up AotW and it finds it for me. If
                              I want to see what the area behind the marker looks like I use Virtual
                              Antietam.

                              I didn't find the data for the 'lost markers' at the archives. I got a
                              folder from Jane Custer that has pictures of every marker on the field.
                              She has photos of a few markers that are gone, an example being the one
                              that used to be on the house near Middle Bridge.

                              In some of my the postcards and battlefield photos I have seen missing
                              markers and markers that have been moved. There is a great Burgan
                              postcard that shows the three markers for Sedgwick's brigades placed
                              just north of the 15th MA monument. They are now south of it down the
                              hill. I also have a photos of an old marker that used to be in front of
                              Old Simon. It looks like it is the congressional act creating the
                              cemetery. There is no marker there now. And there used to be a marker
                              just south west of the NJ monument.

                              Stephen






                              On Thursday, September 13, 2007, at 09:53 AM, Brian Downey wrote:

                              > For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on
                              > Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren't
                              > actually tablet images, though Stephen's are. Mine are text --
                              > formatted to look like tablets -- so the content is Google-searchable
                              > and I have tablets with text for those long lost from the actual
                              > battlefield (based on Carman/Heth's notes from the Archives). AotW
                              > versions are also linked to maps and military units mentioned for
                              > cross reference.
                              >
                              > You want to look at what's actually on the field? Go see Stephen.
                              >
                            • G E Mayers
                              Dear Tom, Ok. Just wondering....something for the future! BTW, contact me privately about speaking at the Bucks County CWRT next year ...sometime? Yr. Obt.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 12, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Tom,

                                Ok. Just wondering....something for the future!


                                BTW, contact me privately about speaking at the Bucks County CWRT
                                next year ...sometime?

                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Tom Shay" <RoteBaron@...>
                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 7:39 PM
                                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                                brigade


                                > Gerry,
                                >
                                > I need to invest in a digital recorder.
                                > The results using my old videotape recorder just aren't worth
                                > the effort.
                                >
                                > Tom Shay
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: G E Mayers
                                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:10 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                                > brigade
                                >
                                >
                                > Dear Tom,
                                >
                                > Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes?
                                >
                                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                >
                                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                                > even
                                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                > from
                                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: <RoteBaron@...>
                                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                                > brigade
                                >
                                > > Joe,
                                > >
                                > > The AoTW site has photos of the IX Corps tablets posted
                                > online.
                                > > I hope (but cannot be sure) that the list is all inclusive.
                                > > URL is: http://aotw.org/officers.php?unit_id=84
                                > >
                                > > You can also contact John Hoptak, who is an avid historian
                                > of
                                > > General Nagle. He is a ranger at Antietam. We're both
                                > > Schuylkill Countians, home of Nagle and the glorious 48th
                                > PA.
                                > >
                                > > Contact John via his blog at
                                > > http://48thpennsylvania.blogspot.com/
                                > >
                                > > Any date when the new Carman book will be published?
                                > >
                                > > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn
                                > for
                                > > the ranger tours and SHAF events),_._,___
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
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