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Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

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  • Stephen Recker
    The Virtual Antietam website has a keyword searchable database of all of the Maryland Campaign tablets including Turner s Pass, Crampton s Gap, Shepherdstown
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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      The Virtual Antietam website has a keyword searchable database of all
      of the Maryland Campaign tablets including Turner's Pass, Crampton's
      Gap, Shepherdstown Ford, Harper's Ferry, etc. It even includes the
      markers that were there at one time but are now missing. Enjoy.

      http://www.virtualantietam.com/

      None at Fox's Gap, though.

      Stephen Recker

      On Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 01:40 PM, joseph_pierro wrote:

      > Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
      > markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?
      >
    • Harry Smeltzer
      I ll be arriving at Sharpsburg Saturday morning to work the SHAF table at the festival for awhile. I ll probably stop at the VC first to pick up tour
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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        I'll be arriving at Sharpsburg Saturday morning to work the SHAF table at
        the festival for awhile. I'll probably stop at the VC first to pick up tour
        schedule, and hope to go on at least one walk on Saturday and maybe two on
        Sunday before I head back home. I'll be attending Ethan Rafuse's talk on
        Saturday night. Hope to see fellow list members there.

        Harry



        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of RoteBaron@...
        Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade



        Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for the ranger
        tours and SHAF events),_._,___





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Joseph Pierro
        Thanks, Tom. I didn t THINK there were any at Fox s, and the only ones I recall at Turner s were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike, across from
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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          Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike, across from the Mountain House.

          I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed BG.

          The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

          The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very psychic or very presumptuous). That date must be when Lincoln finally got around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

          If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

          --jake



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

          There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that memory.

          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College

          >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

          Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
          markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

          If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
          to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

          (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
          and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

          --jake

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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          Check out fun summer activities for kids.
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        • Harry Smeltzer
          Nagle s first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863. He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of rank would
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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            Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
            He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
            rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
            nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
            3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

            So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

            This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

            Harry



            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
            Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade



            Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
            recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
            across from the Mountain House.

            I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
            Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
            BG.

            The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
            anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
            reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
            commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
            the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

            The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
            letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
            that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
            psychic or very presumptuous). That date must be when Lincoln finally got
            around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
            from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

            If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

            --jake

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstown
            <mailto:clemenst%40hagerstowncc.edu> cc.edu>
            To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

            There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
            Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
            memory.

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College

            >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

            Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
            markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

            If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
            to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

            (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
            and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

            --jake

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Tom, Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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              Dear Tom,

              Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes?

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <RoteBaron@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
              brigade


              > Joe,
              >
              > The AoTW site has photos of the IX Corps tablets posted online.
              > I hope (but cannot be sure) that the list is all inclusive.
              > URL is: http://aotw.org/officers.php?unit_id=84
              >
              > You can also contact John Hoptak, who is an avid historian of
              > General Nagle. He is a ranger at Antietam. We're both
              > Schuylkill Countians, home of Nagle and the glorious 48th PA.
              >
              > Contact John via his blog at
              > http://48thpennsylvania.blogspot.com/
              >
              > Any date when the new Carman book will be published?
              >
              > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for
              > the ranger tours and SHAF events),_._,___
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
            • Harry Smeltzer
              Oops.that first commission expired 3/3/1863. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer Sent:
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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                Oops.that first commission expired 3/3/1863.



                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade



                Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                Harry

                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                across from the Mountain House.

                I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                BG.

                The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                psychic or very presumptuous). That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                --jake

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstown
                <mailto:clemenst%40hagerstowncc.edu> cc.edu>
                To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                memory.

                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College

                >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                --jake

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                __________________________________________________________
                Got a little couch potato?
                Check out fun summer activities for kids.
                http://search.
                <http://search.
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                cs=bz> yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz

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              • Tom Shay
                Gerry, I need to invest in a digital recorder. The results using my old videotape recorder just aren t worth the effort. Tom Shay ... From: G E Mayers To:
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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                  Gerry,

                  I need to invest in a digital recorder.
                  The results using my old videotape recorder just aren't worth the effort.

                  Tom Shay

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: G E Mayers
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:10 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade


                  Dear Tom,

                  Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes?

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: <RoteBaron@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                  brigade

                  > Joe,
                  >
                  > The AoTW site has photos of the IX Corps tablets posted online.
                  > I hope (but cannot be sure) that the list is all inclusive.
                  > URL is: http://aotw.org/officers.php?unit_id=84
                  >
                  > You can also contact John Hoptak, who is an avid historian of
                  > General Nagle. He is a ranger at Antietam. We're both
                  > Schuylkill Countians, home of Nagle and the glorious 48th PA.
                  >
                  > Contact John via his blog at
                  > http://48thpennsylvania.blogspot.com/
                  >
                  > Any date when the new Carman book will be published?
                  >
                  > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for
                  > the ranger tours and SHAF events),_._,___
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Joseph Pierro
                  Harry, Thanks for that. I ve seen E & E, but I m not sure they have the right information. It s clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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                    Harry,

                    Thanks for that. I've seen E & E, but I'm not sure they have the right information. It's clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he was to take rank. What's NOT clear is whether or not Lincoln APPOINTED him on 9/10 (the appointment date and the date at which an officer take rank are not necessarily the same; the latter often predates the former). To date I haven't been able to find any primary document verifying that fact.

                    If Lincoln DID appoint him in September 1862 (and it seems evident that he did), it wasn't premature for him to sign with the rank of a general officer. In the absence of a Congress, the appointment acts (and Richard Sommers at Carlise confirmed this for me) much like a recess appointment would today.

                    Sometime between Sept. 10 and Sept. 20, word got to Nagle that he had been appointed a general officer (and from a source of credible enough authority that Sturgis took to referring to him as "Colonel (now General)" by Sept. 22.

                    What I'm trying to find out (if the paper trail still exists) is WHERE and WHEN Nagle got that info in September 1862.

                    --jake

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@...>
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26:20 PM
                    Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                    Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                    He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                    rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                    nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                    3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                    So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                    This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                    Harry

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com] On
                    Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                    To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                    Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                    recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                    across from the Mountain House.

                    I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                    Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                    BG.

                    The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                    anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                    reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                    commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                    the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                    The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                    letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                    that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                    psychic or very presumptuous) . That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                    around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                    from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                    If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                    --jake

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstow n
                    <mailto:clemenst% 40hagerstowncc. edu> cc.edu>
                    To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntieta m%40yahoogroups. com> yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                    There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                    Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                    memory.

                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College

                    >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                    Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                    markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                    If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                    to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                    (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                    and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                    --jake

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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                    Check out fun summer activities for kids.
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                  • Harry Smeltzer
                    Jake, Yes, I m aware that appointment dates and dates of rank are not necessarily the same. What I should have said was, according to Eicher & Eicher, the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 12, 2007
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                      Jake,

                      Yes, I'm aware that appointment dates and dates of rank are not necessarily the same. What I should have said was, according to Eicher & Eicher, the appointment date would have been the same as the date of rank. I'm assuming that the date of rank would have been included in the nomination sent to Congress.

                      Do you have any idea why the first nomination was not confirmed? I would imagine it probably had something to do with the fact that the nomination and backing recommendations had their genesis in McClellan's command.

                      Harry

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Joseph Pierro
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:56 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade


                      Harry,

                      Thanks for that. I've seen E & E, but I'm not sure they have the right information. It's clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he was to take rank. What's NOT clear is whether or not Lincoln APPOINTED him on 9/10 (the appointment date and the date at which an officer take rank are not necessarily the same; the latter often predates the former). To date I haven't been able to find any primary document verifying that fact.

                      If Lincoln DID appoint him in September 1862 (and it seems evident that he did), it wasn't premature for him to sign with the rank of a general officer. In the absence of a Congress, the appointment acts (and Richard Sommers at Carlise confirmed this for me) much like a recess appointment would today.

                      Sometime between Sept. 10 and Sept. 20, word got to Nagle that he had been appointed a general officer (and from a source of credible enough authority that Sturgis took to referring to him as "Colonel (now General)" by Sept. 22.

                      What I'm trying to find out (if the paper trail still exists) is WHERE and WHEN Nagle got that info in September 1862.

                      --jake

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@...>
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26:20 PM
                      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                      Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                      He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                      rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                      nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                      3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                      So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                      This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                      Harry

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com] On
                      Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                      Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                      recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                      across from the Mountain House.

                      I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                      Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                      BG.

                      The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                      anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                      reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                      commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                      the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                      The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                      letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                      that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                      psychic or very presumptuous) . That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                      around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                      from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                      If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                      --jake

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstow n
                      <mailto:clemenst% 40hagerstowncc. edu> cc.edu>
                      To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntieta m%40yahoogroups. com> yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                      There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                      Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                      memory.

                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College

                      >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                      Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                      markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                      If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                      to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                      (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                      and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                      --jake

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                    • Joseph Pierro
                      Harry: As it happened, the issue doesn t appear to have been anything particular to Nagle. (If it had, I suspect they would have just voted him down.) They
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
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                        Harry:

                        As it happened, the issue doesn't appear to have been anything particular to Nagle. (If it had, I suspect they would have just voted him down.) They turned an entire sheaf of promotions, without voting on any of them, back to Lincoln on proceedural grounds.

                        The record reads as follows:

                        "The Senate proceeded to consider the following report:

                        "'The Committee on Military Affairs and the Militia, to whom were referred the nominations of the several major-generals and brigadier-generals and hospital chaplains appointed since the last session of Congress, find no law authorizing said appointments, and recommend that the nominations be returned to the President; and

                        "'Resolved, That the Senate agree to the said report.'" (Senate Exec. Journal, 37th Cong., 3d sess., February 12, 1863, 128)

                        The nomination that went to Congress does indeed bear a date of rank (Sept. 10, 1862), but the communication itself, as I mentioned before, is dated December.

                        The available evidence is clear that Nagle had learned of his appointment (and hence was entitled to call himself a brigadier general) before the campaign ended. It is most likely, but not 100% certain, that he found out prior to going into action on Sept. 17.

                        Where the issue gets a bit cloudy, and hence why it would be of interest to know the date on which something was transmitted from Washington with the news that he had been appointed by the preisdent, concerns South Mountain.

                        In the narrative portion of Carman's manuscript, he never mentions Nagle by rank. (It's always, "Nagle's brigade," and the like.) Only in his Table of Organization does he give a rank, listing him as "Colonel." On the War Dept. tablet on the battlefield, however, Nagle is listed as a brigadier general, suggesting that Carman altered his views regarding Nagle's status on the 17th.

                        It is possible, however, that Nagle should be properly be designated as a colonel at South Mountain. Even if Lincoln did issue the commission on the same day that Nagle was to take rank (Sept. 10), the only available evidence to come to light thus far (the report of his division commander, Samuel Sturgis) suggests that word of the promotion had not yet reached the army prior to the fighting at Fox's Gap.

                        This would correspond to the manner in which the editors of the OR saw the issue. On their compiled list of casualties at South Mountain, Nagle appears as a colonel (v. 19, pt. 1, p. 186), while on the similar list for Antietam (v. 19, pt. 1, p. 197) he's listed as a brigadier general.







                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@...>
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:12:09 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                        Jake,

                        Yes, I'm aware that appointment dates and dates of rank are not necessarily the same. What I should have said was, according to Eicher & Eicher, the appointment date would have been the same as the date of rank. I'm assuming that the date of rank would have been included in the nomination sent to Congress.

                        Do you have any idea why the first nomination was not confirmed? I would imagine it probably had something to do with the fact that the nomination and backing recommendations had their genesis in McClellan's command.

                        Harry

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Joseph Pierro
                        To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:56 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                        Harry,

                        Thanks for that. I've seen E & E, but I'm not sure they have the right information. It's clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he was to take rank. What's NOT clear is whether or not Lincoln APPOINTED him on 9/10 (the appointment date and the date at which an officer take rank are not necessarily the same; the latter often predates the former). To date I haven't been able to find any primary document verifying that fact.

                        If Lincoln DID appoint him in September 1862 (and it seems evident that he did), it wasn't premature for him to sign with the rank of a general officer. In the absence of a Congress, the appointment acts (and Richard Sommers at Carlise confirmed this for me) much like a recess appointment would today.

                        Sometime between Sept. 10 and Sept. 20, word got to Nagle that he had been appointed a general officer (and from a source of credible enough authority that Sturgis took to referring to him as "Colonel (now General)" by Sept. 22.

                        What I'm trying to find out (if the paper trail still exists) is WHERE and WHEN Nagle got that info in September 1862.

                        --jake

                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@comcast. net>
                        To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26:20 PM
                        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                        Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                        He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                        rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                        nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                        3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                        So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                        This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                        Harry

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:TalkAntieta m@ yahoogroups. com] On
                        Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                        To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                        Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                        recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                        across from the Mountain House.

                        I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                        Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                        BG.

                        The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                        anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                        reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                        commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                        the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                        The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                        letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                        that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                        psychic or very presumptuous) . That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                        around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                        from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                        If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                        --jake

                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstow n
                        <mailto:clemenst% 40hagerstowncc. edu> cc.edu>
                        To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntieta m%40yahoogroups. com> yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                        There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                        Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                        memory.

                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        Professor of History
                        Hagerstown Community College

                        >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                        Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                        markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                        If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                        to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                        (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                        and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                        --jake

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                      • Joseph Pierro
                        Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn t realize someone had captured the remaining ones
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
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                          Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn't realize someone had captured the remaining ones from outside of the park boundary.


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:16:10 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                          The Virtual Antietam website has a keyword searchable database of all
                          of the Maryland Campaign tablets including Turner's Pass, Crampton's
                          Gap, Shepherdstown Ford, Harper's Ferry, etc. It even includes the
                          markers that were there at one time but are now missing. Enjoy.

                          http://www.virtuala ntietam.com/

                          None at Fox's Gap, though.

                          Stephen Recker

                          On Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 01:40 PM, joseph_pierro wrote:

                          > Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                          > markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?
                          >





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                        • Brian Downey
                          Hi Jake, For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren t actually tablet
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
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                            Hi Jake,

                            For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on
                            Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren't
                            actually tablet images, though Stephen's are. Mine are text --
                            formatted to look like tablets -- so the content is Google-searchable
                            and I have tablets with text for those long lost from the actual
                            battlefield (based on Carman/Heth's notes from the Archives). AotW
                            versions are also linked to maps and military units mentioned for
                            cross reference.

                            You want to look at what's actually on the field? Go see Stephen.

                            Brian

                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam
                            battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn't realize someone had captured
                            the remaining ones from outside of the park boundary.
                          • Brian Downey
                            Hello Talk friends, I ll be at Sharpsburg and the Battlefield all day on Saturday. Alert the media :) Haven t set schedule, but will try to cram in as much as
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
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                              Hello Talk friends,

                              I'll be at Sharpsburg and the Battlefield all day on Saturday. Alert
                              the media :) Haven't set schedule, but will try to cram in as much as
                              possible. I'll prob wear an AotW tee shirt - please give me an elbow
                              poke if I don't see you first. If you put your email address on your
                              forehead, I'll probably recognize that since I don't know many by face
                              ....

                              Brian

                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I'll be arriving at Sharpsburg Saturday morning to work the SHAF
                              table at
                              > the festival for awhile. I'll probably stop at the VC first to pick
                              up tour
                              > schedule, and hope to go on at least one walk on Saturday and maybe
                              two on
                              > Sunday before I head back home. I'll be attending Ethan Rafuse's
                              talk on
                              > Saturday night. Hope to see fellow list members there.
                              >
                              > Harry
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of RoteBaron@...
                              > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
                              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for the
                              ranger
                              > tours and SHAF events),_._,___
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Joseph Pierro
                              Well, you BOTH have rather remarkable websites. I m only sorry I hadn;t discovered Stephen s sooner. When people talk about digital history (the buzzword du
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
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                                Well, you BOTH have rather remarkable websites. I'm only sorry I hadn;t discovered Stephen's sooner.

                                When people talk about "digital history" (the buzzword du jour these days in college history departments), your sites represent the best of what the Web can offer.

                                --jake


                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Brian Downey <bdowney@...>
                                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:53:40 AM
                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                                Hi Jake,

                                For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on
                                Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren't
                                actually tablet images, though Stephen's are. Mine are text --
                                formatted to look like tablets -- so the content is Google-searchable
                                and I have tablets with text for those long lost from the actual
                                battlefield (based on Carman/Heth' s notes from the Archives). AotW
                                versions are also linked to maps and military units mentioned for
                                cross reference.

                                You want to look at what's actually on the field? Go see Stephen.

                                Brian

                                --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@ ...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam
                                battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn't realize someone had captured
                                the remaining ones from outside of the park boundary.






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                              • Stephen Recker
                                Brian, No, YOU da man. Actually I do appreciate the kind words. Another thought about the differences in the two databases. Virtual Antietam is a simple
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 13, 2007
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                                  Brian,

                                  No, YOU da man.

                                  Actually I do appreciate the kind words. Another thought about the
                                  differences in the two databases. Virtual Antietam is a simple keyword
                                  search of the text of the markers and monuments. You gotta know what
                                  you are looking for, because if you keyword search for "Maryland" and
                                  the marker says, MD, you are out of luck. AotW, on the other hand, is
                                  an actual relational database that will parse out specific narrow
                                  searches.

                                  So if I am at a book show and I need to find out if the 16th Alaska
                                  Dogsled Team was at Antietam, I fire up AotW and it finds it for me. If
                                  I want to see what the area behind the marker looks like I use Virtual
                                  Antietam.

                                  I didn't find the data for the 'lost markers' at the archives. I got a
                                  folder from Jane Custer that has pictures of every marker on the field.
                                  She has photos of a few markers that are gone, an example being the one
                                  that used to be on the house near Middle Bridge.

                                  In some of my the postcards and battlefield photos I have seen missing
                                  markers and markers that have been moved. There is a great Burgan
                                  postcard that shows the three markers for Sedgwick's brigades placed
                                  just north of the 15th MA monument. They are now south of it down the
                                  hill. I also have a photos of an old marker that used to be in front of
                                  Old Simon. It looks like it is the congressional act creating the
                                  cemetery. There is no marker there now. And there used to be a marker
                                  just south west of the NJ monument.

                                  Stephen






                                  On Thursday, September 13, 2007, at 09:53 AM, Brian Downey wrote:

                                  > For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on
                                  > Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren't
                                  > actually tablet images, though Stephen's are. Mine are text --
                                  > formatted to look like tablets -- so the content is Google-searchable
                                  > and I have tablets with text for those long lost from the actual
                                  > battlefield (based on Carman/Heth's notes from the Archives). AotW
                                  > versions are also linked to maps and military units mentioned for
                                  > cross reference.
                                  >
                                  > You want to look at what's actually on the field? Go see Stephen.
                                  >
                                • G E Mayers
                                  Dear Tom, Ok. Just wondering....something for the future! BTW, contact me privately about speaking at the Bucks County CWRT next year ...sometime? Yr. Obt.
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Feb 12, 2008
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                                    Dear Tom,

                                    Ok. Just wondering....something for the future!


                                    BTW, contact me privately about speaking at the Bucks County CWRT
                                    next year ...sometime?

                                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Tom Shay" <RoteBaron@...>
                                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 7:39 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                                    brigade


                                    > Gerry,
                                    >
                                    > I need to invest in a digital recorder.
                                    > The results using my old videotape recorder just aren't worth
                                    > the effort.
                                    >
                                    > Tom Shay
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: G E Mayers
                                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:10 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                                    > brigade
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Dear Tom,
                                    >
                                    > Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes?
                                    >
                                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                    >
                                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                                    > even
                                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                    > from
                                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: <RoteBaron@...>
                                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                                    > brigade
                                    >
                                    > > Joe,
                                    > >
                                    > > The AoTW site has photos of the IX Corps tablets posted
                                    > online.
                                    > > I hope (but cannot be sure) that the list is all inclusive.
                                    > > URL is: http://aotw.org/officers.php?unit_id=84
                                    > >
                                    > > You can also contact John Hoptak, who is an avid historian
                                    > of
                                    > > General Nagle. He is a ranger at Antietam. We're both
                                    > > Schuylkill Countians, home of Nagle and the glorious 48th
                                    > PA.
                                    > >
                                    > > Contact John via his blog at
                                    > > http://48thpennsylvania.blogspot.com/
                                    > >
                                    > > Any date when the new Carman book will be published?
                                    > >
                                    > > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn
                                    > for
                                    > > the ranger tours and SHAF events),_._,___
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
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