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South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

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  • joseph_pierro
    Does anyone happen to know if there s one of those Carman-era iron markers at Fox s Gap that covers Nagle s brigade in particular? If there is one, does anyone
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 12 10:40 AM
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      Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
      markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

      If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
      to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

      (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
      and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

      --jake
    • Thomas Clemens
      There are no cast iron markers at Fox s Gap. I don t recall seeing one for Nagle s brigade at Turner s either, but would not stake my life on that memory.
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 12 11:16 AM
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        There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that memory.


        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College



        >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

        Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
        markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

        If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
        to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

        (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
        and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

        --jake





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • RoteBaron@comcast.net
        Joe, The AoTW site has photos of the IX Corps tablets posted online. I hope (but cannot be sure) that the list is all inclusive. URL is:
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 12 12:13 PM
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          Joe,

          The AoTW site has photos of the IX Corps tablets posted online.
          I hope (but cannot be sure) that the list is all inclusive.
          URL is: http://aotw.org/officers.php?unit_id=84

          You can also contact John Hoptak, who is an avid historian of General Nagle. He is a ranger at Antietam. We're both Schuylkill Countians, home of Nagle and the glorious 48th PA.

          Contact John via his blog at http://48thpennsylvania.blogspot.com/

          Any date when the new Carman book will be published?

          Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for the ranger tours and SHAF events),_._,___

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stephen Recker
          The Virtual Antietam website has a keyword searchable database of all of the Maryland Campaign tablets including Turner s Pass, Crampton s Gap, Shepherdstown
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 12 12:16 PM
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            The Virtual Antietam website has a keyword searchable database of all
            of the Maryland Campaign tablets including Turner's Pass, Crampton's
            Gap, Shepherdstown Ford, Harper's Ferry, etc. It even includes the
            markers that were there at one time but are now missing. Enjoy.

            http://www.virtualantietam.com/

            None at Fox's Gap, though.

            Stephen Recker

            On Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 01:40 PM, joseph_pierro wrote:

            > Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
            > markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?
            >
          • Harry Smeltzer
            I ll be arriving at Sharpsburg Saturday morning to work the SHAF table at the festival for awhile. I ll probably stop at the VC first to pick up tour
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 12 12:52 PM
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              I'll be arriving at Sharpsburg Saturday morning to work the SHAF table at
              the festival for awhile. I'll probably stop at the VC first to pick up tour
              schedule, and hope to go on at least one walk on Saturday and maybe two on
              Sunday before I head back home. I'll be attending Ethan Rafuse's talk on
              Saturday night. Hope to see fellow list members there.

              Harry



              -----Original Message-----
              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of RoteBaron@...
              Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade



              Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for the ranger
              tours and SHAF events),_._,___





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joseph Pierro
              Thanks, Tom. I didn t THINK there were any at Fox s, and the only ones I recall at Turner s were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike, across from
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 12 1:14 PM
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                Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike, across from the Mountain House.

                I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed BG.

                The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very psychic or very presumptuous). That date must be when Lincoln finally got around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                --jake



                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that memory.

                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College

                >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                --jake

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                Check out fun summer activities for kids.
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Harry Smeltzer
                Nagle s first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863. He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of rank would
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 12 1:26 PM
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                  Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                  He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                  rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                  nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                  3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                  So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                  This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                  Harry



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade



                  Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                  recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                  across from the Mountain House.

                  I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                  Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                  BG.

                  The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                  anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                  reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                  commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                  the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                  The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                  letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                  that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                  psychic or very presumptuous). That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                  around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                  from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                  If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                  --jake

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstown
                  <mailto:clemenst%40hagerstowncc.edu> cc.edu>
                  To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                  There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                  Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                  memory.

                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College

                  >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                  Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                  markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                  If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                  to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                  (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                  and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                  --jake

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                  Check out fun summer activities for kids.
                  http://search.
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                • G E Mayers
                  Dear Tom, Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 12 2:10 PM
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                    Dear Tom,

                    Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes?

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <RoteBaron@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                    brigade


                    > Joe,
                    >
                    > The AoTW site has photos of the IX Corps tablets posted online.
                    > I hope (but cannot be sure) that the list is all inclusive.
                    > URL is: http://aotw.org/officers.php?unit_id=84
                    >
                    > You can also contact John Hoptak, who is an avid historian of
                    > General Nagle. He is a ranger at Antietam. We're both
                    > Schuylkill Countians, home of Nagle and the glorious 48th PA.
                    >
                    > Contact John via his blog at
                    > http://48thpennsylvania.blogspot.com/
                    >
                    > Any date when the new Carman book will be published?
                    >
                    > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for
                    > the ranger tours and SHAF events),_._,___
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • Harry Smeltzer
                    Oops.that first commission expired 3/3/1863. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer Sent:
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 12 2:39 PM
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                      Oops.that first commission expired 3/3/1863.



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade



                      Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                      He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                      rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                      nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                      3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                      So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                      This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                      Harry

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                      Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                      recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                      across from the Mountain House.

                      I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                      Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                      BG.

                      The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                      anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                      reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                      commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                      the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                      The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                      letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                      that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                      psychic or very presumptuous). That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                      around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                      from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                      If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                      --jake

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstown
                      <mailto:clemenst%40hagerstowncc.edu> cc.edu>
                      To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                      There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                      Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                      memory.

                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College

                      >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                      Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                      markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                      If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                      to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                      (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                      and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                      --jake

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      __________________________________________________________
                      Got a little couch potato?
                      Check out fun summer activities for kids.
                      http://search.
                      <http://search.
                      <http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&
                      > yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&
                      cs=bz> yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Tom Shay
                      Gerry, I need to invest in a digital recorder. The results using my old videotape recorder just aren t worth the effort. Tom Shay ... From: G E Mayers To:
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 12 5:39 PM
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                        Gerry,

                        I need to invest in a digital recorder.
                        The results using my old videotape recorder just aren't worth the effort.

                        Tom Shay

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: G E Mayers
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:10 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade


                        Dear Tom,

                        Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes?

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <RoteBaron@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                        brigade

                        > Joe,
                        >
                        > The AoTW site has photos of the IX Corps tablets posted online.
                        > I hope (but cannot be sure) that the list is all inclusive.
                        > URL is: http://aotw.org/officers.php?unit_id=84
                        >
                        > You can also contact John Hoptak, who is an avid historian of
                        > General Nagle. He is a ranger at Antietam. We're both
                        > Schuylkill Countians, home of Nagle and the glorious 48th PA.
                        >
                        > Contact John via his blog at
                        > http://48thpennsylvania.blogspot.com/
                        >
                        > Any date when the new Carman book will be published?
                        >
                        > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for
                        > the ranger tours and SHAF events),_._,___
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Joseph Pierro
                        Harry, Thanks for that. I ve seen E & E, but I m not sure they have the right information. It s clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 12 5:56 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Harry,

                          Thanks for that. I've seen E & E, but I'm not sure they have the right information. It's clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he was to take rank. What's NOT clear is whether or not Lincoln APPOINTED him on 9/10 (the appointment date and the date at which an officer take rank are not necessarily the same; the latter often predates the former). To date I haven't been able to find any primary document verifying that fact.

                          If Lincoln DID appoint him in September 1862 (and it seems evident that he did), it wasn't premature for him to sign with the rank of a general officer. In the absence of a Congress, the appointment acts (and Richard Sommers at Carlise confirmed this for me) much like a recess appointment would today.

                          Sometime between Sept. 10 and Sept. 20, word got to Nagle that he had been appointed a general officer (and from a source of credible enough authority that Sturgis took to referring to him as "Colonel (now General)" by Sept. 22.

                          What I'm trying to find out (if the paper trail still exists) is WHERE and WHEN Nagle got that info in September 1862.

                          --jake

                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@...>
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26:20 PM
                          Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                          Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                          He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                          rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                          nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                          3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                          So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                          This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                          Harry

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com] On
                          Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                          To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                          Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                          recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                          across from the Mountain House.

                          I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                          Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                          BG.

                          The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                          anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                          reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                          commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                          the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                          The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                          letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                          that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                          psychic or very presumptuous) . That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                          around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                          from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                          If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                          --jake

                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstow n
                          <mailto:clemenst% 40hagerstowncc. edu> cc.edu>
                          To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntieta m%40yahoogroups. com> yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                          There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                          Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                          memory.

                          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          Professor of History
                          Hagerstown Community College

                          >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                          Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                          markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                          If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                          to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                          (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                          and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                          --jake

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                          Check out fun summer activities for kids.
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                        • Harry Smeltzer
                          Jake, Yes, I m aware that appointment dates and dates of rank are not necessarily the same. What I should have said was, according to Eicher & Eicher, the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 12 6:12 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jake,

                            Yes, I'm aware that appointment dates and dates of rank are not necessarily the same. What I should have said was, according to Eicher & Eicher, the appointment date would have been the same as the date of rank. I'm assuming that the date of rank would have been included in the nomination sent to Congress.

                            Do you have any idea why the first nomination was not confirmed? I would imagine it probably had something to do with the fact that the nomination and backing recommendations had their genesis in McClellan's command.

                            Harry

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Joseph Pierro
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:56 PM
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade


                            Harry,

                            Thanks for that. I've seen E & E, but I'm not sure they have the right information. It's clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he was to take rank. What's NOT clear is whether or not Lincoln APPOINTED him on 9/10 (the appointment date and the date at which an officer take rank are not necessarily the same; the latter often predates the former). To date I haven't been able to find any primary document verifying that fact.

                            If Lincoln DID appoint him in September 1862 (and it seems evident that he did), it wasn't premature for him to sign with the rank of a general officer. In the absence of a Congress, the appointment acts (and Richard Sommers at Carlise confirmed this for me) much like a recess appointment would today.

                            Sometime between Sept. 10 and Sept. 20, word got to Nagle that he had been appointed a general officer (and from a source of credible enough authority that Sturgis took to referring to him as "Colonel (now General)" by Sept. 22.

                            What I'm trying to find out (if the paper trail still exists) is WHERE and WHEN Nagle got that info in September 1862.

                            --jake

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@...>
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26:20 PM
                            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                            Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                            He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                            rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                            nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                            3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                            So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                            This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                            Harry

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com] On
                            Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                            To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                            Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                            recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                            across from the Mountain House.

                            I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                            Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                            BG.

                            The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                            anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                            reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                            commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                            the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                            The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                            letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                            that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                            psychic or very presumptuous) . That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                            around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                            from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                            If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                            --jake

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstow n
                            <mailto:clemenst% 40hagerstowncc. edu> cc.edu>
                            To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntieta m%40yahoogroups. com> yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                            There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                            Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                            memory.

                            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            Professor of History
                            Hagerstown Community College

                            >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                            Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                            markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                            If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                            to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                            (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                            and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                            --jake

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                          • Joseph Pierro
                            Harry: As it happened, the issue doesn t appear to have been anything particular to Nagle. (If it had, I suspect they would have just voted him down.) They
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 13 5:37 AM
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                              Harry:

                              As it happened, the issue doesn't appear to have been anything particular to Nagle. (If it had, I suspect they would have just voted him down.) They turned an entire sheaf of promotions, without voting on any of them, back to Lincoln on proceedural grounds.

                              The record reads as follows:

                              "The Senate proceeded to consider the following report:

                              "'The Committee on Military Affairs and the Militia, to whom were referred the nominations of the several major-generals and brigadier-generals and hospital chaplains appointed since the last session of Congress, find no law authorizing said appointments, and recommend that the nominations be returned to the President; and

                              "'Resolved, That the Senate agree to the said report.'" (Senate Exec. Journal, 37th Cong., 3d sess., February 12, 1863, 128)

                              The nomination that went to Congress does indeed bear a date of rank (Sept. 10, 1862), but the communication itself, as I mentioned before, is dated December.

                              The available evidence is clear that Nagle had learned of his appointment (and hence was entitled to call himself a brigadier general) before the campaign ended. It is most likely, but not 100% certain, that he found out prior to going into action on Sept. 17.

                              Where the issue gets a bit cloudy, and hence why it would be of interest to know the date on which something was transmitted from Washington with the news that he had been appointed by the preisdent, concerns South Mountain.

                              In the narrative portion of Carman's manuscript, he never mentions Nagle by rank. (It's always, "Nagle's brigade," and the like.) Only in his Table of Organization does he give a rank, listing him as "Colonel." On the War Dept. tablet on the battlefield, however, Nagle is listed as a brigadier general, suggesting that Carman altered his views regarding Nagle's status on the 17th.

                              It is possible, however, that Nagle should be properly be designated as a colonel at South Mountain. Even if Lincoln did issue the commission on the same day that Nagle was to take rank (Sept. 10), the only available evidence to come to light thus far (the report of his division commander, Samuel Sturgis) suggests that word of the promotion had not yet reached the army prior to the fighting at Fox's Gap.

                              This would correspond to the manner in which the editors of the OR saw the issue. On their compiled list of casualties at South Mountain, Nagle appears as a colonel (v. 19, pt. 1, p. 186), while on the similar list for Antietam (v. 19, pt. 1, p. 197) he's listed as a brigadier general.







                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@...>
                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:12:09 PM
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                              Jake,

                              Yes, I'm aware that appointment dates and dates of rank are not necessarily the same. What I should have said was, according to Eicher & Eicher, the appointment date would have been the same as the date of rank. I'm assuming that the date of rank would have been included in the nomination sent to Congress.

                              Do you have any idea why the first nomination was not confirmed? I would imagine it probably had something to do with the fact that the nomination and backing recommendations had their genesis in McClellan's command.

                              Harry

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Joseph Pierro
                              To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:56 PM
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                              Harry,

                              Thanks for that. I've seen E & E, but I'm not sure they have the right information. It's clear from the Congressional record that 9/10 was the date he was to take rank. What's NOT clear is whether or not Lincoln APPOINTED him on 9/10 (the appointment date and the date at which an officer take rank are not necessarily the same; the latter often predates the former). To date I haven't been able to find any primary document verifying that fact.

                              If Lincoln DID appoint him in September 1862 (and it seems evident that he did), it wasn't premature for him to sign with the rank of a general officer. In the absence of a Congress, the appointment acts (and Richard Sommers at Carlise confirmed this for me) much like a recess appointment would today.

                              Sometime between Sept. 10 and Sept. 20, word got to Nagle that he had been appointed a general officer (and from a source of credible enough authority that Sturgis took to referring to him as "Colonel (now General)" by Sept. 22.

                              What I'm trying to find out (if the paper trail still exists) is WHERE and WHEN Nagle got that info in September 1862.

                              --jake

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Harry Smeltzer <hjs21@comcast. net>
                              To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:26:20 PM
                              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                              Nagle's first BG USV commission expired without confirmation on 4/3/1863.
                              He was not nominated until 12/23/1862: had he been confirmed, his date of
                              rank would have been the same as his appointment date, 9/10/1862. He was
                              nominated again on 3/10/1863, and confirmed 3/13/1863. Appointment date was
                              3/23/1863 to date from 3/13/1863.

                              So, his signing of reports as BG was at the very least premature.

                              This is all in Eicher & Eicher.

                              Harry

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:TalkAntieta m@ yahoogroups. com] On
                              Behalf Of Joseph Pierro
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
                              To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                              Thanks, Tom. I didn't THINK there were any at Fox's, and the only ones I
                              recall at Turner's were a few VERY general ones along the National Pike,
                              across from the Mountain House.

                              I'm at the NA right now digging through Nagle's CMSR and the Commissions
                              Branch files trying to pin down the date on which he was actually appointed
                              BG.

                              The commission was TO RANK Sept. 10, 1862, but it could have been issued
                              anytime between then and Sept. 20 (the date on which he starts signing his
                              reports "Brigadier General"). The 48th PA's monument says he received the
                              commision on the 17th, but if there's one thing I've learned in my study of
                              the Civil War, it's never to trust anything chisled into stone. :)

                              The earliest mention of the appointment in the Congressional record is a
                              letter from Lincoln submitting it to Congress on December 23, 1862 (but if
                              that letter represents the actual appointment, then Nagle was either very
                              psychic or very presumptuous) . That date must be when Lincoln finally got
                              around to submitting the appointment to Congress (it had been out of session
                              from July 18 to Nov. 30, 1862).

                              If anyone has a lead, I'm all ears (and much obliged)!

                              --jake

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstow n
                              <mailto:clemenst% 40hagerstowncc. edu> cc.edu>
                              To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntieta m%40yahoogroups. com> yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:16:52 PM
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle' s brigade

                              There are no cast iron markers at Fox's Gap. I don't recall seeing one for
                              Nagle's brigade at Turner's either, but would not stake my life on that
                              memory.

                              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              Professor of History
                              Hagerstown Community College

                              >>> "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com> 09/12/07 1:40 PM >>>

                              Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                              markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?

                              If there is one, does anyone know how it lists his rank? I'm curious
                              to know if it says "Brigadier General" (as at Antietam) or "Colonel."

                              (I'd ask Steve Stotlmeyer, but I don't have his email. If anyone does
                              and would be willing to pass it along, I'd be much obliged!)

                              --jake

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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                            • Joseph Pierro
                              Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn t realize someone had captured the remaining ones
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 13 5:39 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn't realize someone had captured the remaining ones from outside of the park boundary.


                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:16:10 PM
                                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                                The Virtual Antietam website has a keyword searchable database of all
                                of the Maryland Campaign tablets including Turner's Pass, Crampton's
                                Gap, Shepherdstown Ford, Harper's Ferry, etc. It even includes the
                                markers that were there at one time but are now missing. Enjoy.

                                http://www.virtuala ntietam.com/

                                None at Fox's Gap, though.

                                Stephen Recker

                                On Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 01:40 PM, joseph_pierro wrote:

                                > Does anyone happen to know if there's one of those Carman-era iron
                                > markers at Fox's Gap that covers Nagle's brigade in particular?
                                >





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                              • Brian Downey
                                Hi Jake, For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren t actually tablet
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 13 6:53 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Jake,

                                  For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on
                                  Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren't
                                  actually tablet images, though Stephen's are. Mine are text --
                                  formatted to look like tablets -- so the content is Google-searchable
                                  and I have tablets with text for those long lost from the actual
                                  battlefield (based on Carman/Heth's notes from the Archives). AotW
                                  versions are also linked to maps and military units mentioned for
                                  cross reference.

                                  You want to look at what's actually on the field? Go see Stephen.

                                  Brian

                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam
                                  battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn't realize someone had captured
                                  the remaining ones from outside of the park boundary.
                                • Brian Downey
                                  Hello Talk friends, I ll be at Sharpsburg and the Battlefield all day on Saturday. Alert the media :) Haven t set schedule, but will try to cram in as much as
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 13 7:02 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Talk friends,

                                    I'll be at Sharpsburg and the Battlefield all day on Saturday. Alert
                                    the media :) Haven't set schedule, but will try to cram in as much as
                                    possible. I'll prob wear an AotW tee shirt - please give me an elbow
                                    poke if I don't see you first. If you put your email address on your
                                    forehead, I'll probably recognize that since I don't know many by face
                                    ....

                                    Brian

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'll be arriving at Sharpsburg Saturday morning to work the SHAF
                                    table at
                                    > the festival for awhile. I'll probably stop at the VC first to pick
                                    up tour
                                    > schedule, and hope to go on at least one walk on Saturday and maybe
                                    two on
                                    > Sunday before I head back home. I'll be attending Ethan Rafuse's
                                    talk on
                                    > Saturday night. Hope to see fellow list members there.
                                    >
                                    > Harry
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > Behalf Of RoteBaron@...
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
                                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn for the
                                    ranger
                                    > tours and SHAF events),_._,___
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Joseph Pierro
                                    Well, you BOTH have rather remarkable websites. I m only sorry I hadn;t discovered Stephen s sooner. When people talk about digital history (the buzzword du
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Sep 13 7:56 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Well, you BOTH have rather remarkable websites. I'm only sorry I hadn;t discovered Stephen's sooner.

                                      When people talk about "digital history" (the buzzword du jour these days in college history departments), your sites represent the best of what the Web can offer.

                                      --jake


                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: Brian Downey <bdowney@...>
                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:53:40 AM
                                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain markers-Nagle's brigade

                                      Hi Jake,

                                      For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on
                                      Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren't
                                      actually tablet images, though Stephen's are. Mine are text --
                                      formatted to look like tablets -- so the content is Google-searchable
                                      and I have tablets with text for those long lost from the actual
                                      battlefield (based on Carman/Heth' s notes from the Archives). AotW
                                      versions are also linked to maps and military units mentioned for
                                      cross reference.

                                      You want to look at what's actually on the field? Go see Stephen.

                                      Brian

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@ ...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Thanks Steve! I knew of the full set of tablet images from Antietam
                                      battlefiled on the AOTW site, but didn't realize someone had captured
                                      the remaining ones from outside of the park boundary.






                                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Stephen Recker
                                      Brian, No, YOU da man. Actually I do appreciate the kind words. Another thought about the differences in the two databases. Virtual Antietam is a simple
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Sep 13 1:20 PM
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                                        Brian,

                                        No, YOU da man.

                                        Actually I do appreciate the kind words. Another thought about the
                                        differences in the two databases. Virtual Antietam is a simple keyword
                                        search of the text of the markers and monuments. You gotta know what
                                        you are looking for, because if you keyword search for "Maryland" and
                                        the marker says, MD, you are out of luck. AotW, on the other hand, is
                                        an actual relational database that will parse out specific narrow
                                        searches.

                                        So if I am at a book show and I need to find out if the 16th Alaska
                                        Dogsled Team was at Antietam, I fire up AotW and it finds it for me. If
                                        I want to see what the area behind the marker looks like I use Virtual
                                        Antietam.

                                        I didn't find the data for the 'lost markers' at the archives. I got a
                                        folder from Jane Custer that has pictures of every marker on the field.
                                        She has photos of a few markers that are gone, an example being the one
                                        that used to be on the house near Middle Bridge.

                                        In some of my the postcards and battlefield photos I have seen missing
                                        markers and markers that have been moved. There is a great Burgan
                                        postcard that shows the three markers for Sedgwick's brigades placed
                                        just north of the 15th MA monument. They are now south of it down the
                                        hill. I also have a photos of an old marker that used to be in front of
                                        Old Simon. It looks like it is the congressional act creating the
                                        cemetery. There is no marker there now. And there used to be a marker
                                        just south west of the NJ monument.

                                        Stephen






                                        On Thursday, September 13, 2007, at 09:53 AM, Brian Downey wrote:

                                        > For the record, Stephen had all the monuments and tablets online on
                                        > Virtual Antietam long before I had any on AotW. Also, mine aren't
                                        > actually tablet images, though Stephen's are. Mine are text --
                                        > formatted to look like tablets -- so the content is Google-searchable
                                        > and I have tablets with text for those long lost from the actual
                                        > battlefield (based on Carman/Heth's notes from the Archives). AotW
                                        > versions are also linked to maps and military units mentioned for
                                        > cross reference.
                                        >
                                        > You want to look at what's actually on the field? Go see Stephen.
                                        >
                                      • G E Mayers
                                        Dear Tom, Ok. Just wondering....something for the future! BTW, contact me privately about speaking at the Bucks County CWRT next year ...sometime? Yr. Obt.
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Feb 12, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Tom,

                                          Ok. Just wondering....something for the future!


                                          BTW, contact me privately about speaking at the Bucks County CWRT
                                          next year ...sometime?

                                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Tom Shay" <RoteBaron@...>
                                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 7:39 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                                          brigade


                                          > Gerry,
                                          >
                                          > I need to invest in a digital recorder.
                                          > The results using my old videotape recorder just aren't worth
                                          > the effort.
                                          >
                                          > Tom Shay
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: G E Mayers
                                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:10 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                                          > brigade
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Dear Tom,
                                          >
                                          > Will you be taking videotapes of the new trail hikes?
                                          >
                                          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                          >
                                          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                                          > even
                                          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                          > from
                                          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: <RoteBaron@...>
                                          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:13 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain markers-Nagle's
                                          > brigade
                                          >
                                          > > Joe,
                                          > >
                                          > > The AoTW site has photos of the IX Corps tablets posted
                                          > online.
                                          > > I hope (but cannot be sure) that the list is all inclusive.
                                          > > URL is: http://aotw.org/officers.php?unit_id=84
                                          > >
                                          > > You can also contact John Hoptak, who is an avid historian
                                          > of
                                          > > General Nagle. He is a ranger at Antietam. We're both
                                          > > Schuylkill Countians, home of Nagle and the glorious 48th
                                          > PA.
                                          > >
                                          > > Contact John via his blog at
                                          > > http://48thpennsylvania.blogspot.com/
                                          > >
                                          > > Any date when the new Carman book will be published?
                                          > >
                                          > > Tom Shay - (I willl arrive at Antietam on Saturday at dawn
                                          > for
                                          > > the ranger tours and SHAF events),_._,___
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
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