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G.A.R. Reno Post #4 Hagerstown

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  • Scott Hann
    OK Brian, I m game. I have my own ghost stories that I ve personally experienced on the Antietam battlefield, but I ll leave them for another time. I m
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 23, 2007
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      OK Brian, I'm game. I have my own "ghost stories" that I've
      personally experienced on the Antietam battlefield, but I'll leave
      them for another time.

      I'm seeking information about G.A.R. Reno Post #4 in Hagerstown, MD.
      Does anyone know if photos from this Post exist, or has any
      information about the collection it housed? Also, I'm looking for
      information about early displays of Antietam relics. So-called "relic
      boards," such as the one that hung in the Antietam Train Station.
      Thanks, Scott
    • Stephen Recker
      Scott, Reno Post #4 signed a lease with the mayor of Hagerstown on April 1, 1905 for all that room or hall, known as the Old Town Hall, formerly occupied by
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 23, 2007
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        Scott,

        Reno Post #4 signed a lease with the mayor of Hagerstown on April 1,
        1905 for "all that room or hall, known as the Old Town Hall, formerly
        occupied by the Masonic Lodge, situate in the building on the
        south-east corner of North Potomac Street and East Franklin Street,
        Hagerstown". The building was replaced by the current City Hall, built
        in 1939.

        That said, I have a muster list of the Post from 1899. Unfortunately it
        simply lists the address as "Hagerstown". The post commander was S.D.
        Martin. That might be a clue to something.

        I also have a Quartermaster report from 1910. It lists the commander as
        E C. Mobley.The roster from 1899 lists an Ed. M. Mobley. His address is
        listed as 3 1/2 West Franklin, coincidentally that is the old address
        of famed Antietam battlefield photographer E.M. Recher. The Rose Hill
        Cemetery in Hagerstown has two very old gravestones that read, in part,
        "Sons of E.M. Mobley and E.C. Mobley". Perhaps another rabbit hole?

        Nonetheless, the 1910 quartermaster report says that the post only has
        $400 "Cash invested in Furniture, Flags, etc."

        I got hold of the name of the woman who holds all of the historical
        material for that building. I'll drop by her office tomorrow and see
        what she knows. Maybe she'll have big boxes of stuff hidden away. We
        can only hope.

        I'll send a copy of these materials to you via regular mail. No
        information about or photos of the relics, but perhaps a clue to
        something?

        Stephen



        On Thursday, August 23, 2007, at 11:13 AM, Scott Hann wrote:

        > OK Brian, I'm game. I have my own "ghost stories" that I've
        > personally experienced on the Antietam battlefield, but I'll leave
        > them for another time.
        >
        > I'm seeking information about G.A.R. Reno Post #4 in Hagerstown, MD.
        > Does anyone know if photos from this Post exist, or has any
        > information about the collection it housed? Also, I'm looking for
        > information about early displays of Antietam relics. So-called "relic
        > boards," such as the one that hung in the Antietam Train Station.
        > Thanks, Scott


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Scott Hann
        Steve, who s better than you? Nobody! Thanks for the great info. ... 1, ... formerly ... Street, ... built ... Unfortunately it ... S.D. ... commander as ...
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 23, 2007
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          Steve, who's better than you? Nobody! Thanks for the great info.

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Scott,
          >
          > Reno Post #4 signed a lease with the mayor of Hagerstown on April
          1,
          > 1905 for "all that room or hall, known as the Old Town Hall,
          formerly
          > occupied by the Masonic Lodge, situate in the building on the
          > south-east corner of North Potomac Street and East Franklin
          Street,
          > Hagerstown". The building was replaced by the current City Hall,
          built
          > in 1939.
          >
          > That said, I have a muster list of the Post from 1899.
          Unfortunately it
          > simply lists the address as "Hagerstown". The post commander was
          S.D.
          > Martin. That might be a clue to something.
          >
          > I also have a Quartermaster report from 1910. It lists the
          commander as
          > E C. Mobley.The roster from 1899 lists an Ed. M. Mobley. His
          address is
          > listed as 3 1/2 West Franklin, coincidentally that is the old
          address
          > of famed Antietam battlefield photographer E.M. Recher. The Rose
          Hill
          > Cemetery in Hagerstown has two very old gravestones that read, in
          part,
          > "Sons of E.M. Mobley and E.C. Mobley". Perhaps another rabbit hole?
          >
          > Nonetheless, the 1910 quartermaster report says that the post only
          has
          > $400 "Cash invested in Furniture, Flags, etc."
          >
          > I got hold of the name of the woman who holds all of the
          historical
          > material for that building. I'll drop by her office tomorrow and
          see
          > what she knows. Maybe she'll have big boxes of stuff hidden away.
          We
          > can only hope.
          >
          > I'll send a copy of these materials to you via regular mail. No
          > information about or photos of the relics, but perhaps a clue to
          > something?
          >
          > Stephen
          >
          >
          >
          > On Thursday, August 23, 2007, at 11:13 AM, Scott Hann wrote:
          >
          > > OK Brian, I'm game. I have my own "ghost stories" that I've
          > > personally experienced on the Antietam battlefield, but I'll
          leave
          > > them for another time.
          > >
          > > I'm seeking information about G.A.R. Reno Post #4 in Hagerstown,
          MD.
          > > Does anyone know if photos from this Post exist, or has any
          > > information about the collection it housed? Also, I'm looking for
          > > information about early displays of Antietam relics. So-
          called "relic
          > > boards," such as the one that hung in the Antietam Train Station.
          > > Thanks, Scott
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Stephen Recker
          Kind of you to say, sir. -sjr
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 23, 2007
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            Kind of you to say, sir.

            -sjr

            On Thursday, August 23, 2007, at 05:40 PM, Scott Hann wrote:

            > Steve, who's better than you? Nobody! Thanks for the great info.
            >
          • Stephen Recker
            Scott, Well, no pictures of the relics in the hall, but a few more clues. I went to the City Planning office at Hagerstown City Hall on the site of the old
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 24, 2007
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              Scott,

              Well, no pictures of the relics in the hall, but a few more clues.

              I went to the City Planning office at Hagerstown City Hall on the site
              of the old Town Market where G.A.R. Reno Post #4 used to meet. I ran
              into Stephen Bockmiller, esteemed member of this board, and he told me
              that they don't have any pictures of the old hall. He even checked
              around for boxes of old stuff, but to no avail.

              Stephen then directed me to the City Clerk. Here I found something
              interesting. Besides the fact that famed Antietam photographer B.W.T.
              Phreaner refused to pave his sidewalk in 1904, even to the point of the
              case being referred to the Police, there is a city council record from
              March 2, 1905 saying that it needs to be discerned whether the G.A.R.
              boys are going to renew their lease that expires in April 1905. Now,
              the lease I have states that the lease of the space started in 1905. I
              looked back a few years and couldn't find anything, so it is unclear
              when they first occupied the space.

              Just outside the clerk's office, though, are a bunch of old portraits
              of city officials taken around 1910. My guess is that they were taken
              in the old city hall, perhaps even in the Masonic Lodge Room. BTW, that
              is the name of the room they rented - the Masonic Lodge Room. There are
              some cool curtains, but no relic cases.

              Then I went to the Washington County Historical Society. The have some
              great photos of the outside of the old hall. It was built in 1822. The
              top was changed in 1888. Then it was torn down in 1939. The pictures
              are great. I'll send them on.

              Stephen
            • Scott Hann
              Steve, Again I owe you big time. According the the website at the USMHI there is an envelope containing information about this Post, whereas they have box(es)
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 24, 2007
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                Steve,

                Again I owe you big time. According the the website at the USMHI there
                is an envelope containing information about this Post, whereas they have
                box(es) of information about other Posts. The next time I get over to
                Carlisle I'll have to photocopy the information.

                Scott




                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...> wrote:
                >
                > Scott,
                >
                > Well, no pictures of the relics in the hall, but a few more clues.
                >
                > I went to the City Planning office at Hagerstown City Hall on the site
                > of the old Town Market where G.A.R. Reno Post #4 used to meet. I ran
                > into Stephen Bockmiller, esteemed member of this board, and he told me
                > that they don't have any pictures of the old hall. He even checked
                > around for boxes of old stuff, but to no avail.
                >
                > Stephen then directed me to the City Clerk. Here I found something
                > interesting. Besides the fact that famed Antietam photographer B.W.T.
                > Phreaner refused to pave his sidewalk in 1904, even to the point of
                the
                > case being referred to the Police, there is a city council record from
                > March 2, 1905 saying that it needs to be discerned whether the G.A.R.
                > boys are going to renew their lease that expires in April 1905. Now,
                > the lease I have states that the lease of the space started in 1905. I
                > looked back a few years and couldn't find anything, so it is unclear
                > when they first occupied the space.
                >
                > Just outside the clerk's office, though, are a bunch of old portraits
                > of city officials taken around 1910. My guess is that they were taken
                > in the old city hall, perhaps even in the Masonic Lodge Room. BTW,
                that
                > is the name of the room they rented - the Masonic Lodge Room. There
                are
                > some cool curtains, but no relic cases.
                >
                > Then I went to the Washington County Historical Society. The have some
                > great photos of the outside of the old hall. It was built in 1822. The
                > top was changed in 1888. Then it was torn down in 1939. The pictures
                > are great. I'll send them on.
                >
                > Stephen
                >
              • Thomas Clemens
                Which reminds me Steve, Washington County Historical Society needs new members. I ll get you a form the next time I see you. :-) Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 24, 2007
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                  Which reminds me Steve, Washington County Historical Society needs new
                  members. I'll get you a form the next time I see you. :-)


                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College


                  >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 08/24/07 3:44 PM >>>
                  Scott,

                  Well, no pictures of the relics in the hall, but a few more clues.

                  I went to the City Planning office at Hagerstown City Hall on the site
                  of the old Town Market where G.A.R. Reno Post #4 used to meet. I ran
                  into Stephen Bockmiller, esteemed member of this board, and he told me
                  that they don't have any pictures of the old hall. He even checked
                  around for boxes of old stuff, but to no avail.

                  Stephen then directed me to the City Clerk. Here I found something
                  interesting. Besides the fact that famed Antietam photographer B.W.T.
                  Phreaner refused to pave his sidewalk in 1904, even to the point of the
                  case being referred to the Police, there is a city council record from
                  March 2, 1905 saying that it needs to be discerned whether the G.A.R.
                  boys are going to renew their lease that expires in April 1905. Now,
                  the lease I have states that the lease of the space started in 1905. I
                  looked back a few years and couldn't find anything, so it is unclear
                  when they first occupied the space.

                  Just outside the clerk's office, though, are a bunch of old portraits
                  of city officials taken around 1910. My guess is that they were taken
                  in the old city hall, perhaps even in the Masonic Lodge Room. BTW, that
                  is the name of the room they rented - the Masonic Lodge Room. There are
                  some cool curtains, but no relic cases.

                  Then I went to the Washington County Historical Society. The have some
                  great photos of the outside of the old hall. It was built in 1822. The
                  top was changed in 1888. Then it was torn down in 1939. The pictures
                  are great. I'll send them on.

                  Stephen
                • Stephen Recker
                  Tom, When I was down there I saw you were on the board, so I filled out my form. Thanks for the nudge! Stephen
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 24, 2007
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                    Tom,

                    When I was down there I saw you were on the board, so I filled out my
                    form. Thanks for the nudge!

                    Stephen


                    On Friday, August 24, 2007, at 06:21 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                    > Which reminds me Steve, Washington County Historical Society needs new
                    > members. I'll get you a form the next time I see you. :-)
                    >
                  • Stephen Recker
                    Sounds like a road trip. I ve still got to get up to Gettysburg College and see those George Batchelder covers. Stephen
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 24, 2007
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                      Sounds like a road trip. I've still got to get up to Gettysburg College
                      and see those George Batchelder covers.

                      Stephen

                      On Friday, August 24, 2007, at 04:36 PM, Scott Hann wrote:

                      > Again I owe you big time. According the the website at the USMHI there
                      > is an envelope containing information about this Post, whereas they
                      > have
                      > box(es) of information about other Posts. The next time I get over to
                      > Carlisle I'll have to photocopy the information.
                      >
                    • Scott Hann
                      I didn t know Gettysburg College had the George Batchelder covers. One of these days I have to take a trip to the college library to see the letters of Adj.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 24, 2007
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                        I didn't know Gettysburg College had the George Batchelder covers.
                        One of these days I have to take a trip to the college library to
                        see the letters of Adj. Henry P. Clare of the 83rd NY. His
                        eyewitness account of Pickett's Charge has been published, but I'm
                        more anxious to see what he wrote about Antietam. I have a CDV of
                        him, which is part of the reason why I'm interested.


                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Sounds like a road trip. I've still got to get up to Gettysburg
                        College
                        > and see those George Batchelder covers.
                        >
                        > Stephen
                        >
                        > On Friday, August 24, 2007, at 04:36 PM, Scott Hann wrote:
                        >
                        > > Again I owe you big time. According the the website at the USMHI
                        there
                        > > is an envelope containing information about this Post, whereas
                        they
                        > > have
                        > > box(es) of information about other Posts. The next time I get
                        over to
                        > > Carlisle I'll have to photocopy the information.
                        > >
                        >
                      • Stephen Recker
                        Da ohhh. I meant to say Hayward covers. Stephen
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 24, 2007
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                          Da'ohhh. I meant to say Hayward covers.

                          Stephen

                          On Friday, August 24, 2007, at 08:08 PM, Scott Hann wrote:

                          > I didn't know Gettysburg College had the George Batchelder covers.
                        • Stephen Recker
                          I contacted the Masonic Temple here in Hagerstown to see if they have any photos of the Masonic Lodge Hall where Reno Post #4 met. No such luck. Here is the
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 24, 2007
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                            I contacted the Masonic Temple here in Hagerstown to see if they have
                            any photos of the Masonic Lodge Hall where Reno Post #4 met. No such
                            luck. Here is the reply:

                            //////////////////////////////////////////////
                            In 1822 Mt. Moriah Lodge (Chartered in 1802) joined with the City to
                            build a
                            combined Market House and Masonic Temple - the site of the present City
                            Hall
                            at Franklin and Potomac. Mt. Moriah Lodge ceased to exist in 1831.

                            Friendship Lodge was Chartered on May 22, 1827 and met at homes in
                            Hagerstown and Williamsport until they found a more permanent site in
                            1858.
                            From July 1858 to April 1, 1888 Friendship Lodge met in the "new
                            building"
                            at the southeast corner of Public Square. Friendship Lodge then built
                            our
                            current Temple in 1898 and dedicated it on March 8, 1899, where we have
                            been
                            ever since.

                            We have no pictures of anything prior to the dedication of the current
                            Masonic Temple on March 8, 1899.

                            If you find anything like that I would be very interested in getting a
                            copy.

                            Terry Smith, Secretary
                            Friendship Lodge No. 84

                            ///////////////////////////////////////////////

                            This does tell us that the hall was not available for lease until, at
                            the earliest, March 1899.

                            Stephen
                          • Ronald Church
                            I have heard it on several occasions that as French s lead brigade (Weber s) approached the Sunken Road they did so with uncapped muskets. Is this true? Ron
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 31, 2007
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                              I have heard it on several occasions that as French's lead brigade
                              (Weber's) approached the Sunken Road they did so with uncapped muskets.
                              Is this true?

                              Ron Church
                              Manchester Md
                            • G E Mayers
                              Ron, I have read that in several sources also. I think that, if you are dealing with a new unit, it might be best to have them load but not cap... As a
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 31, 2007
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                                Ron,

                                I have read that in several sources also. I think that, if you
                                are dealing with a new unit, it might be best to have them load
                                but not cap... As a reenactor who once did infantry, there were
                                occasions were my unit was told to load but not cap....

                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Ronald Church" <rchurch@...>
                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 2:31 PM
                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Uncapped muskets?


                                >I have heard it on several occasions that as French's lead
                                >brigade
                                > (Weber's) approached the Sunken Road they did so with uncapped
                                > muskets.
                                > Is this true?
                                >
                                > Ron Church
                                > Manchester Md
                                >
                                >
                              • Ronald Church
                                Gerry, The reasoning for not capping in this instance is understandable 1. These were green troops who, at first hostile file, might pull trigger and break
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 31, 2007
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                                  Gerry,

                                  The reasoning for not capping in this instance is understandable
                                  1. These were green troops who, at first hostile file, might pull
                                  trigger and break for the rear .... or the nearest cover, and
                                  2. Since their destination was on the left of Tyndale up near the
                                  VC they still had some ground to cover (or so they thought) before
                                  running into Confederates.

                                  So it makes sense that they might not have capped their weapons as they
                                  approached the Sunken Road, but I've not been able find confirmation of it.

                                  Ron Church

                                  G E Mayers wrote:
                                  > Ron,
                                  >
                                  > I have read that in several sources also. I think that, if you
                                  > are dealing with a new unit, it might be best to have them load
                                  > but not cap... As a reenactor who once did infantry, there were
                                  > occasions were my unit was told to load but not cap....
                                  >
                                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                  >
                                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "Ronald Church" <rchurch@...>
                                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 2:31 PM
                                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Uncapped muskets?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >> I have heard it on several occasions that as French's lead
                                  >> brigade
                                  >> (Weber's) approached the Sunken Road they did so with uncapped
                                  >> muskets.
                                  >> Is this true?
                                  >>
                                  >> Ron Church
                                  >> Manchester Md
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > .
                                  >
                                  >
                                • joseph_pierro
                                  ... muskets. ... Carman gives a rather detailed account of the fight made by Weber s brigade (I can send you the particular passage if you wish), but he
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 31, 2007
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                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Ronald Church <rchurch@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I have heard it on several occasions that as French's lead brigade
                                    > (Weber's) approached the Sunken Road they did so with uncapped
                                    muskets.
                                    > Is this true?
                                    >
                                    > Ron Church
                                    > Manchester Md
                                    >
                                    Carman gives a rather detailed account of the fight made by Weber's
                                    brigade (I can send you the particular passage if you wish), but he
                                    doesn't mention their muskets being uncapped.

                                    It was a well drilled brigade, but new to combat. As others have
                                    remarked, it would not be unique in a unit like that for weapons to
                                    have been kept uncapped in the advance in order to maintain fire
                                    discipline.

                                    --jake
                                  • richard@rcroker.com
                                    At Fredericksburg, Gen Humphries ordered his men to make the infamaous assault up Marye s Heights with unloaded weapons. Noy only uncapped, but unloaded.
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 1, 2007
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                                      At Fredericksburg, Gen Humphries ordered his men to make the infamaous assault up Marye's Heights with unloaded weapons. Noy only uncapped, but unloaded. This on the advice of Gen. Hooker. The logic was that no one should stop to fire. He even had an inspection to make certain no one had a loaded weapon. His men climbed those heights basically armed with spears.
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: joseph_pierro
                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:34 PM
                                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?


                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Ronald Church <rchurch@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I have heard it on several occasions that as French's lead brigade
                                      > (Weber's) approached the Sunken Road they did so with uncapped
                                      muskets.
                                      > Is this true?
                                      >
                                      > Ron Church
                                      > Manchester Md
                                      >
                                      Carman gives a rather detailed account of the fight made by Weber's
                                      brigade (I can send you the particular passage if you wish), but he
                                      doesn't mention their muskets being uncapped.

                                      It was a well drilled brigade, but new to combat. As others have
                                      remarked, it would not be unique in a unit like that for weapons to
                                      have been kept uncapped in the advance in order to maintain fire
                                      discipline.

                                      --jake





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Scott Hann
                                      There s a story about a 1st Corps regiment or brigade going into action at Gettysburg on the First Day with unloaded weapons. The men in the ranks reminded
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 1, 2007
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                                        There's a story about a 1st Corps regiment or brigade going into
                                        action at Gettysburg on the First Day with unloaded weapons. The
                                        men in the ranks reminded the officers to give the order to load
                                        their muskets.



                                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, <richard@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > At Fredericksburg, Gen Humphries ordered his men to make the
                                        infamaous assault up Marye's Heights with unloaded weapons. Noy
                                        only uncapped, but unloaded. This on the advice of Gen. Hooker.
                                        The logic was that no one should stop to fire. He even had an
                                        inspection to make certain no one had a loaded weapon. His men
                                        climbed those heights basically armed with spears.
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: joseph_pierro
                                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:34 PM
                                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Ronald Church <rchurch@>
                                        wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I have heard it on several occasions that as French's lead
                                        brigade
                                        > > (Weber's) approached the Sunken Road they did so with uncapped
                                        > muskets.
                                        > > Is this true?
                                        > >
                                        > > Ron Church
                                        > > Manchester Md
                                        > >
                                        > Carman gives a rather detailed account of the fight made by
                                        Weber's
                                        > brigade (I can send you the particular passage if you wish), but
                                        he
                                        > doesn't mention their muskets being uncapped.
                                        >
                                        > It was a well drilled brigade, but new to combat. As others have
                                        > remarked, it would not be unique in a unit like that for weapons
                                        to
                                        > have been kept uncapped in the advance in order to maintain fire
                                        > discipline.
                                        >
                                        > --jake
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Joseph Pierro
                                        Again, that s not unheard of on either side. If the intention is a bayonet charge, and your concern is getting your attacking force to cover the distance in
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 1, 2007
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                                          Again, that's not unheard of on either side. If the intention is a bayonet charge, and your concern is getting your attacking force to cover the distance in the shortest time possible, the only way to guarantee that they'll cross the space is to send them in with an unloaded weapon. (Even the most disciplined soldier, when charging under fire, will stop to return it--if he has a loaded weapon. It's human nature.)

                                          I've come across one Confederate account from the Seven Days fighting that describes his regiment being forced to "ring our muskets"--dropping the rammer down the barrel of the weapon in the presence of an officer or NCO so that he could hear the "ring" of it striking the empty bottom (as opposed to the dull thud of it striking a ball and wadding).



                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: "richard@..." <richard@...>
                                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2007 9:35:24 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?

                                          At Fredericksburg, Gen Humphries ordered his men to make the infamaous assault up Marye's Heights with unloaded weapons. Noy only uncapped, but unloaded. This on the advice of Gen. Hooker. The logic was that no one should stop to fire. He even had an inspection to make certain no one had a loaded weapon. His men climbed those heights basically armed with spears.
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: joseph_pierro
                                          To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                                          Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:34 PM
                                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?

                                          --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Ronald Church <rchurch@... > wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I have heard it on several occasions that as French's lead brigade
                                          > (Weber's) approached the Sunken Road they did so with uncapped
                                          muskets.
                                          > Is this true?
                                          >
                                          > Ron Church
                                          > Manchester Md
                                          >
                                          Carman gives a rather detailed account of the fight made by Weber's
                                          brigade (I can send you the particular passage if you wish), but he
                                          doesn't mention their muskets being uncapped.

                                          It was a well drilled brigade, but new to combat. As others have
                                          remarked, it would not be unique in a unit like that for weapons to
                                          have been kept uncapped in the advance in order to maintain fire
                                          discipline.

                                          --jake

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Stephen Recker
                                          The first bayonet charge on Little Round Top was Patrick Henry O Rourke sending, I believe, the 144th NY over the hill onto a bunch of texans. He did not take
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 1, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            The first bayonet charge on Little Round Top was Patrick Henry O'Rourke
                                            sending, I believe, the 144th NY over the hill onto a bunch of texans.
                                            He did not take the time to load. It was 'fix bayonets'.

                                            Stephen

                                            On Saturday, September 1, 2007, at 10:02 AM, Scott Hann wrote:

                                            > There's a story about a 1st Corps regiment or brigade going into
                                            > action at Gettysburg on the First Day with unloaded weapons. The
                                            > men in the ranks reminded the officers to give the order to load
                                            > their muskets.
                                          • Thomas Clemens
                                            Patrick O Rorke s 146 NY, with a contingent of 5th NY Vols. 3-year men recently added. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community College
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 1, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Patrick O'Rorke's 146 NY, with a contingent of 5th NY Vols. 3-year men recently added.


                                              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                              Professor of History
                                              Hagerstown Community College


                                              >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 09/01/07 5:38 PM >>>
                                              The first bayonet charge on Little Round Top was Patrick Henry O'Rourke
                                              sending, I believe, the 144th NY over the hill onto a bunch of texans.
                                              He did not take the time to load. It was 'fix bayonets'.

                                              Stephen

                                              On Saturday, September 1, 2007, at 10:02 AM, Scott Hann wrote:

                                              > There's a story about a 1st Corps regiment or brigade going into
                                              > action at Gettysburg on the First Day with unloaded weapons. The
                                              > men in the ranks reminded the officers to give the order to load
                                              > their muskets.
                                            • G E Mayers
                                              Dear Joseph, This ringing or pinging of the gun barrel is even heard today among CW reenactors during safety inspections, thereby insuring a
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 3, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Dear Joseph,

                                                This "ringing" or "pinging" of the gun barrel is even heard today
                                                among CW reenactors during safety inspections, thereby insuring a
                                                cleaned/unfouled barrel.

                                                I would personally prefer to advance to battle loaded but not
                                                capped, if I knew I was going to be using the bayonet.

                                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Joseph Pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 10:47 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?


                                                > Again, that's not unheard of on either side. If the intention
                                                > is a bayonet charge, and your concern is getting your attacking
                                                > force to cover the distance in the shortest time possible, the
                                                > only way to guarantee that they'll cross the space is to send
                                                > them in with an unloaded weapon. (Even the most disciplined
                                                > soldier, when charging under fire, will stop to return it--if
                                                > he has a loaded weapon. It's human nature.)
                                                >
                                                > I've come across one Confederate account from the Seven Days
                                                > fighting that describes his regiment being forced to "ring our
                                                > muskets"--dropping the rammer down the barrel of the weapon in
                                                > the presence of an officer or NCO so that he could hear the
                                                > "ring" of it striking the empty bottom (as opposed to the dull
                                                > thud of it striking a ball and wadding).
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                                > From: "richard@..." <richard@...>
                                                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2007 9:35:24 AM
                                                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?
                                                >
                                                > At Fredericksburg, Gen Humphries ordered his men to make the
                                                > infamaous assault up Marye's Heights with unloaded weapons. Noy
                                                > only uncapped, but unloaded. This on the advice of Gen. Hooker.
                                                > The logic was that no one should stop to fire. He even had an
                                                > inspection to make certain no one had a loaded weapon. His men
                                                > climbed those heights basically armed with spears.
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: joseph_pierro
                                                > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:34 PM
                                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?
                                                >
                                                > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Ronald Church
                                                > <rchurch@... > wrote:
                                                >>
                                                >> I have heard it on several occasions that as French's lead
                                                >> brigade
                                                >> (Weber's) approached the Sunken Road they did so with uncapped
                                                > muskets.
                                                >> Is this true?
                                                >>
                                                >> Ron Church
                                                >> Manchester Md
                                                >>
                                                > Carman gives a rather detailed account of the fight made by
                                                > Weber's
                                                > brigade (I can send you the particular passage if you wish),
                                                > but he
                                                > doesn't mention their muskets being uncapped.
                                                >
                                                > It was a well drilled brigade, but new to combat. As others
                                                > have
                                                > remarked, it would not be unique in a unit like that for
                                                > weapons to
                                                > have been kept uncapped in the advance in order to maintain
                                                > fire
                                                > discipline.
                                                >
                                                > --jake
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                                > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                                > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
                                                > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • G E Mayers
                                                Dear Stephen, IIRC O Rorke and his men did not have time for much anything else... basically switch right from column into battle line and charge! Yr. Obt.
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 3, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Dear Stephen,

                                                  IIRC O'Rorke and his men did not have time for much anything
                                                  else... basically switch right from column into battle line and
                                                  charge!

                                                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 5:38 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?


                                                  > The first bayonet charge on Little Round Top was Patrick Henry
                                                  > O'Rourke
                                                  > sending, I believe, the 144th NY over the hill onto a bunch of
                                                  > texans.
                                                  > He did not take the time to load. It was 'fix bayonets'.
                                                  >
                                                  > Stephen
                                                  >
                                                  > On Saturday, September 1, 2007, at 10:02 AM, Scott Hann wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >> There's a story about a 1st Corps regiment or brigade going
                                                  >> into
                                                  >> action at Gettysburg on the First Day with unloaded weapons.
                                                  >> The
                                                  >> men in the ranks reminded the officers to give the order to
                                                  >> load
                                                  >> their muskets.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Joseph Pierro
                                                  That, Gerry, is a universal feeling among infantrymen--hence the added precaution (form an officer s pov) of ordering the weapons to be carried unloaded. A
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 3, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    That, Gerry, is a universal feeling among infantrymen--hence the added precaution (form an officer's pov) of ordering the weapons to be carried unloaded. A solider is much more likely to disobey orders, halt his charge and cap a previously loaded weapon than he will to stop and run through the entire loading sequence.

                                                    I remember when I was in Basic Training many years ago and my platoon was receiving a block of instruction on the use of the bayonet, at the end of which the drill sergeant told us that if our bayonet ever became stuck in the enemy's ribcage, it could be dislodged by firing a round from our weapons.

                                                    To which I politely retorted that if my weapon still had a round in it, the bayonet would not be entering the ******* equation.

                                                    I imagine 19th century soldiers were as practical-minded as I--orders to the contrary notwithstanding. :)

                                                    --jake


                                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                                    From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@...>
                                                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Monday, September 3, 2007 6:57:53 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?

                                                    Dear Joseph,

                                                    This "ringing" or "pinging" of the gun barrel is even heard today
                                                    among CW reenactors during safety inspections, thereby insuring a
                                                    cleaned/unfouled barrel.

                                                    I would personally prefer to advance to battle loaded but not
                                                    capped, if I knew I was going to be using the bayonet.

                                                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "Joseph Pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com>
                                                    To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                                                    Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 10:47 AM
                                                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?

                                                    > Again, that's not unheard of on either side. If the intention
                                                    > is a bayonet charge, and your concern is getting your attacking
                                                    > force to cover the distance in the shortest time possible, the
                                                    > only way to guarantee that they'll cross the space is to send
                                                    > them in with an unloaded weapon. (Even the most disciplined
                                                    > soldier, when charging under fire, will stop to return it--if
                                                    > he has a loaded weapon. It's human nature.)
                                                    >
                                                    > I've come across one Confederate account from the Seven Days
                                                    > fighting that describes his regiment being forced to "ring our
                                                    > muskets"--dropping the rammer down the barrel of the weapon in
                                                    > the presence of an officer or NCO so that he could hear the
                                                    > "ring" of it striking the empty bottom (as opposed to the dull
                                                    > thud of it striking a ball and wadding).
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                                    > From: "richard@rcroker. com" <richard@rcroker. com>
                                                    > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                                                    > Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2007 9:35:24 AM
                                                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?
                                                    >
                                                    > At Fredericksburg, Gen Humphries ordered his men to make the
                                                    > infamaous assault up Marye's Heights with unloaded weapons. Noy
                                                    > only uncapped, but unloaded. This on the advice of Gen. Hooker.
                                                    > The logic was that no one should stop to fire. He even had an
                                                    > inspection to make certain no one had a loaded weapon. His men
                                                    > climbed those heights basically armed with spears.
                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > From: joseph_pierro
                                                    > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                                                    > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:34 PM
                                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Uncapped muskets?
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Ronald Church
                                                    > <rchurch@... > wrote:
                                                    >>
                                                    >> I have heard it on several occasions that as French's lead
                                                    >> brigade
                                                    >> (Weber's) approached the Sunken Road they did so with uncapped
                                                    > muskets.
                                                    >> Is this true?
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Ron Church
                                                    >> Manchester Md
                                                    >>
                                                    > Carman gives a rather detailed account of the fight made by
                                                    > Weber's
                                                    > brigade (I can send you the particular passage if you wish),
                                                    > but he
                                                    > doesn't mention their muskets being uncapped.
                                                    >
                                                    > It was a well drilled brigade, but new to combat. As others
                                                    > have
                                                    > remarked, it would not be unique in a unit like that for
                                                    > weapons to
                                                    > have been kept uncapped in the advance in order to maintain
                                                    > fire
                                                    > discipline.
                                                    >
                                                    > --jake
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                                    > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                                    > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
                                                    > http://search. yahoo.com/ search?fr= oni_on_mail& p=graduation+ gifts&cs= bz
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    >





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