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RE: [TalkAntietam] RE: Ghosts

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  • bdowney@aotw.org
    Hello friends, Let s see if we can t bring this ghost thread back around to something to do with the Maryland Campaign of 1862, ok? Thanks, Brian
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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      Hello friends,

      Let's see if we can't bring this ghost thread back around to something to do with the Maryland Campaign of 1862, ok?

      Thanks,
      Brian
    • G E Mayers
      Dear Brian, I agree...it has gotten out of hand.... Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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        Dear Brian,

        I agree...it has gotten out of hand....

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <bdowney@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:59 PM
        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] RE: Ghosts


        > Hello friends,
        >
        > Let's see if we can't bring this ghost thread back around to
        > something to do with the Maryland Campaign of 1862, ok?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Brian
        >
      • Mark Holt
        Oh, I don t know. He probably never thought of such a thing is his life. If he did, he probably squashed the image out of his mind immediately as sinful and
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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          Oh, I don't know. He probably never thought of such a thing is his life. If he did, he probably squashed the image out of his mind immediately as sinful and vulgar. John Brown was intensely religious in his own narrow sort of way. He did have the build for a brief swimsuit but not the temperment.

          I very much like bikinis though. I wear brief Speedo-style swimwear, and I swim laps often for exercise. I swam across the Potomac (close to where Antietam Creek flows into it) and back too in 1991. The exercise keeps me looking good in bikini-type swimsuits even though I am only one year younger than John Brown was in the last year of his life.

          I very much agree that this ghost subject has gone on long enough for this forum, and with this I have ended my part of it.

          John Brown was a very interesting fellow. Most people who know anything of him at all just dismiss him as a scarey and dangerous old crazy man who got a lot of people killed. He was that in spades, but he was also a man of self-education and very much a man of experience and principle. My guess is that he became a mental case mostly as a result of his experiences in Bleeding Kansas and possibly for some degeneration of his brain contributed to by age and stress. During the 1840's, he was among the nation's foremost experts on raising sheep and producing wool. He had ideas that, if followed, would have made lucrative inroads for American wool growers to supply Britain's woolen industry. Before the real estate and banking crisis of 1837, he had even been rich.

          John Brown and the kind of mentality that he represented was a terrible scare to the slaveholders of America. Many of them knew in their hearts that he was right about slavery being an evil thing as many Americans practiced it. Most of those who did not feared that he was. All knew that men like John Brown would never compromise. Yet what could they do? Imagine yourselves in their place. Imagine how they felt when northern newspapers praised John Brown's actions at Harper's Ferry. A general slave insurrection like the one that John Brown envisioned really would "purge this land in blood." It seemed to the white people in the slave states that northerners literally wanted them dead; murdered in their own beds. Would you want to share a nation with millions of people who felt that way about you?

          As you well know, after the federal and northern state victory at Sharpsburg, President Lincoln issued his famous (or infamous) "Emancipation Proclamation." If the Confederacy was bogus like Lincoln & Co. held that it was, then its member states must have been still member states of the United States. The Constitution gave no power to the general government of the United States or to the President to confiscate property private property save by due process of law. Nor did the Constitution give power to the general government to wage war on member states. Furthermore, the Constitution made no distinction between slave property and any other property. The Emancipation Proclamation specifically applied only to those states over which the United States government had no actual control at that time. It seemed to a lot of people, and it seems to me now, that the Emancipation Proclamation was a deliberate attempt to incite a general slave insurrection or many smaller ones
          in the Confederacy. It was for that cause that Lincoln held the document in secrecy until he could announce it after a major military victory. That victory was at Sharpsburg. He imagined somehow that doing so would make it seem less on its surface to be a cruel incitement to the mass murder of civilians than it would if he had announced it soon after he had written it.

          Mark Holt

          "T.R.Livesey" <tlivesey@...> wrote:
          Ok, so if I follow your reasoning, why wasn't the ghost of John Brown dressed in a bikini?

          T.R. Livesey
          tlivesey@...

          >>>> Mark Holt que182001@...> 08/21/07 10:11 PM >>>
          >
          >This is complicated. It cuts to the physics of matter and energy and consciousness. I do not understand the details of it, but I am given to believe by people whom I imagine are smarter than I that the difference between solidity of a chunk of firewood and the heat of a fire is merely a matter of vibrational frequency and amplitude. Thoughts are energy and matter is energy in a different form. Your mind is not your body and you are not your body. Your body is a vehicle that allows you to operate in this dense, heavy plane that it is tuned to.
          >
          >In the spirit worlds, your thoughtforms can take on a reality that seems independent of you when they are finished and probably is. Want a new house? In the astral, you can just think it up, and it seems as real as your present house built with hammer, nails, and sweat in this dimension.
          >
          >People whose mortal bodies have failed them ("dead people" as we commonly refer to them) can and frequently do reconstruct their bodies and their clothes in astral form. Often they leave off the feet or we just are not able to perceive them. When we "see a ghost," that astral frequency, very near to ours, is bleeding into our bandwidth of reception and perception.
          >
          >Actually, we broadcast energy into the astral constantly. There are some "ghosts" in the astral planes whose bodies in this physical plane are merely asleep, allowing their astral forms to travel where they will until wake-up time. They are attached by a silver chord of infinite flexibility.
          >
          >When you pass to the spirit world, try this: First, imagine yourself naked. You will become so immediately if you were not to begin with. Then imagine yourself wearing a bikini of your favorite color. Picture it in your mind. As quick as a thought, it will be there. Then imagine yourself holding a million dollars. Think of how heavy it will be and the colors and the numbers on the greenbacks, what the money is contained in, etc. Of course, you might feel silly with a million dollars in the spirit world. Material things and dollars have not much value there.
          >
          >Bill and Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@...> wrote:
          >Clothing and garments do not die, so isn't reasonable that ghosts (if they exist) would all be naked?
          >
          >Bill Christen
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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        • T.R.Livesey
          I have visited John Brown sites from Maryland to Kansas; I have admired his portrait in the “Hall of Heroes” at the DuSable Museum of African American
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 23, 2007
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            I have visited John Brown sites from Maryland to Kansas; I have admired his portrait in the ���Hall of Heroes��� at the DuSable Museum of African American History (the only white portrait there, if I remember correctly). John Brown was no crazier than anyone else with religious convictions. His primary distinction was that he took his moral guidance from 1 and only 1 source: Scripture. Richard Dawkins points out in his book ���The God Delusion��� that most Americans today (and I would guess by extension 19th century Americans, although perhaps to a lesser rate) are at odds with the wanton killing, rape, child abuse, incest, polygamy and slavery condoned by and even demanded by God in the Bible; therefore���even if they deny it���they must take their moral instruction from some other source or at least augment their Biblical morality with morality from other sources. This was not the case for John Brown: he took his moral instruction from Scripture and Scripture alone, and was not afraid to allow his convictions to guide his actions to their natural conclusions. If you think that���s crazy, well���that���s your call.

            I find your grasp of history and law about as authoritative as your grasp of physics. Needless to say, I could quote any number of Southern leaders, politicians, clergymen, etc. who in fact argued that slavery was a great good: good for the slaves rescued from barbarity and good for Southern civilizations and ordained by God. If ���many��� southerners allowed themselves to be led by these leaders against their better judgment, I certainly have no sympathy for them, just as I have no sympathy for Germans who went to fight for Hitler even if they didn���t buy into his anti-Semitism.

            T.R. Livesey
            tlivesey@...

            On Thu Aug 23 0:05 , Mark Holt <que182001@...> sent:

            >Oh, I don't know. He probably never thought of such a thing is his life. If he did, he probably squashed the image out of his mind immediately as sinful and vulgar. John Brown was intensely religious in his own narrow sort of way. He did have the build for a brief swimsuit but not the temperment.
            >
            > I very much like bikinis though. I wear brief Speedo-style swimwear, and I swim laps often for exercise. I swam across the Potomac (close to where Antietam Creek flows into it) and back too in 1991. The exercise keeps me looking good in bikini-type swimsuits even though I am only one year younger than John Brown was in the last year of his life.
            >
            > I very much agree that this ghost subject has gone on long enough for this forum, and with this I have ended my part of it.
            >
            > John Brown was a very interesting fellow. Most people who know anything of him at all just dismiss him as a scarey and dangerous old crazy man who got a lot of people killed. He was that in spades, but he was also a man of self-education and very much a man of experience and principle. My guess is that he became a mental case mostly as a result of his experiences in Bleeding Kansas and possibly for some degeneration of his brain contributed to by age and stress. During the 1840's, he was among the nation's foremost experts on raising sheep and producing wool. He had ideas that, if followed, would have made lucrative inroads for American wool growers to supply Britain's woolen industry. Before the real estate and banking crisis of 1837, he had even been rich.
            >
            > John Brown and the kind of mentality that he represented was a terrible scare to the slaveholders of America. Many of them knew in their hearts that he was right about slavery being an evil thing as many Americans practiced it. Most of those who did not feared that he was. All knew that men like John Brown would never compromise. Yet what could they do? Imagine yourselves in their place. Imagine how they felt when northern newspapers praised John Brown's actions at Harper's Ferry. A general slave insurrection like the one that John Brown envisioned really would "purge this land in blood." It seemed to the white people in the slave states that northerners literally wanted them dead; murdered in their own beds. Would you want to share a nation with millions of people who felt that way about you?
            >
            > As you well know, after the federal and northern state victory at Sharpsburg, President Lincoln issued his famous (or infamous) "Emancipation Proclamation." If the Confederacy was bogus like Lincoln & Co. held that it was, then its member states must have been still member states of the United States. The Constitution gave no power to the general government of the United States or to the President to confiscate property private property save by due process of law. Nor did the Constitution give power to the general government to wage war on member states. Furthermore, the Constitution made no distinction between slave property and any other property. The Emancipation Proclamation specifically applied only to those states over which the United States government had no actual control at that time. It seemed to a lot of people, and it seems to me now, that the Emancipation Proclamation was a deliberate attempt to incite a general slave insurrection or many smaller ones
            > in the Confederacy. It was for that cause that Lincoln held the document in secrecy until he could announce it after a major military victory. That victory was at Sharpsburg. He imagined somehow that doing so would make it seem less on its surface to be a cruel incitement to the mass murder of civilians than it would if he had announced it soon after he had written it.
            >
            > Mark Holt
            >
          • richard@rcroker.com
            I love intensely religious people who are capable of hacking a man to death with a machete. Just cause or wrong, I have read most of the Gospels and it
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 23, 2007
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              I love "intensely religious" people who are capable of hacking a man to death with a machete. Just cause or wrong, I have read most of the Gospels and it seems a bit contradictory to me somehow. But hey -- what do I know?


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Mark Holt
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:05 AM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] RE: Ghosts


              Oh, I don't know. He probably never thought of such a thing is his life. If he did, he probably squashed the image out of his mind immediately as sinful and vulgar. John Brown was intensely religious in his own narrow sort of way. He did have the build for a brief swimsuit but not the temperment.

              I very much like bikinis though. I wear brief Speedo-style swimwear, and I swim laps often for exercise. I swam across the Potomac (close to where Antietam Creek flows into it) and back too in 1991. The exercise keeps me looking good in bikini-type swimsuits even though I am only one year younger than John Brown was in the last year of his life.

              I very much agree that this ghost subject has gone on long enough for this forum, and with this I have ended my part of it.

              John Brown was a very interesting fellow. Most people who know anything of him at all just dismiss him as a scarey and dangerous old crazy man who got a lot of people killed. He was that in spades, but he was also a man of self-education and very much a man of experience and principle. My guess is that he became a mental case mostly as a result of his experiences in Bleeding Kansas and possibly for some degeneration of his brain contributed to by age and stress. During the 1840's, he was among the nation's foremost experts on raising sheep and producing wool. He had ideas that, if followed, would have made lucrative inroads for American wool growers to supply Britain's woolen industry. Before the real estate and banking crisis of 1837, he had even been rich.

              John Brown and the kind of mentality that he represented was a terrible scare to the slaveholders of America. Many of them knew in their hearts that he was right about slavery being an evil thing as many Americans practiced it. Most of those who did not feared that he was. All knew that men like John Brown would never compromise. Yet what could they do? Imagine yourselves in their place. Imagine how they felt when northern newspapers praised John Brown's actions at Harper's Ferry. A general slave insurrection like the one that John Brown envisioned really would "purge this land in blood." It seemed to the white people in the slave states that northerners literally wanted them dead; murdered in their own beds. Would you want to share a nation with millions of people who felt that way about you?

              As you well know, after the federal and northern state victory at Sharpsburg, President Lincoln issued his famous (or infamous) "Emancipation Proclamation." If the Confederacy was bogus like Lincoln & Co. held that it was, then its member states must have been still member states of the United States. The Constitution gave no power to the general government of the United States or to the President to confiscate property private property save by due process of law. Nor did the Constitution give power to the general government to wage war on member states. Furthermore, the Constitution made no distinction between slave property and any other property. The Emancipation Proclamation specifically applied only to those states over which the United States government had no actual control at that time. It seemed to a lot of people, and it seems to me now, that the Emancipation Proclamation was a deliberate attempt to incite a general slave insurrection or many smaller ones
              in the Confederacy. It was for that cause that Lincoln held the document in secrecy until he could announce it after a major military victory. That victory was at Sharpsburg. He imagined somehow that doing so would make it seem less on its surface to be a cruel incitement to the mass murder of civilians than it would if he had announced it soon after he had written it.

              Mark Holt

              "T.R.Livesey" <tlivesey@...> wrote:
              Ok, so if I follow your reasoning, why wasn't the ghost of John Brown dressed in a bikini?

              T.R. Livesey
              tlivesey@...

              >>>> Mark Holt que182001@...> 08/21/07 10:11 PM >>>
              >
              >This is complicated. It cuts to the physics of matter and energy and consciousness. I do not understand the details of it, but I am given to believe by people whom I imagine are smarter than I that the difference between solidity of a chunk of firewood and the heat of a fire is merely a matter of vibrational frequency and amplitude. Thoughts are energy and matter is energy in a different form. Your mind is not your body and you are not your body. Your body is a vehicle that allows you to operate in this dense, heavy plane that it is tuned to.
              >
              >In the spirit worlds, your thoughtforms can take on a reality that seems independent of you when they are finished and probably is. Want a new house? In the astral, you can just think it up, and it seems as real as your present house built with hammer, nails, and sweat in this dimension.
              >
              >People whose mortal bodies have failed them ("dead people" as we commonly refer to them) can and frequently do reconstruct their bodies and their clothes in astral form. Often they leave off the feet or we just are not able to perceive them. When we "see a ghost," that astral frequency, very near to ours, is bleeding into our bandwidth of reception and perception.
              >
              >Actually, we broadcast energy into the astral constantly. There are some "ghosts" in the astral planes whose bodies in this physical plane are merely asleep, allowing their astral forms to travel where they will until wake-up time. They are attached by a silver chord of infinite flexibility.
              >
              >When you pass to the spirit world, try this: First, imagine yourself naked. You will become so immediately if you were not to begin with. Then imagine yourself wearing a bikini of your favorite color. Picture it in your mind. As quick as a thought, it will be there. Then imagine yourself holding a million dollars. Think of how heavy it will be and the colors and the numbers on the greenbacks, what the money is contained in, etc. Of course, you might feel silly with a million dollars in the spirit world. Material things and dollars have not much value there.
              >
              >Bill and Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@...> wrote:
              >Clothing and garments do not die, so isn't reasonable that ghosts (if they exist) would all be naked?
              >
              >Bill Christen
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >test'; ">
              >
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