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Re: [TalkAntietam] Ghosts

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  • Thomas Clemens
    T.R. One of my colleagues, who lives near Gettysburg, has done an interesting documentary film about the ghost tour industry and why it is so appealing to
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 20, 2007
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      T.R.
      One of my colleagues, who lives near Gettysburg, has done an interesting documentary film about the "ghost tour" industry and why it is so appealing to some people. Needless to say, his opinion mirrors your own, but the study of who these people are and why they go on tours was interesting.
      Not surprisingly the motivation for offering them is $$$$$. The research is easy; make up a story around some real characters, and it is a proven money maker. Even if someone challenges the story they can say it is simply "a story. "
      As for the Harpers Ferry story related in a recent post, it is pure fiction. I know several people who worked there at that time and this myth has been refuted time and time again. Mindless stuff.


      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College



      >>> T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> 08/19/07 7:37 PM >>>

      I used to subscribe to Blue & Gray Magazine several years ago. It published lots of great tour material for the serious off the beaten path types. Unfortunately, it was only published 6 times a year, so each issue was kind of important. At some point they developed a tradition of doing 1 Gettysburg feature each June, no matter how overdone Gettysburg might be. By now they are probably down to doing ‘The General’ tours of Gettysburg outhouses. Worse, they also developed a tradition of doing a ‘Ghosts of the Civil War’ issue each October. Personally, I could not imagine a more ridiculous waste of paper than printing ghost stories; by comparison, Gettysburg outhouses sound kind of interesting. Here was a magazine which otherwise did an outstanding job of guiding the reader hands-on, through objective facts of civil war battles, and then 1 issue a year they blew that all away by filling their pages with silly ghost stories, which have absolutely no relevance for the serious historian. As far as I was concerned, this meant they really only published 4 times a year. After enduring several years of this nonsense, I cancelled my subscription.

      One of these issues (Fall 1997) featured ghost nonsense on The Irish Brigade at Bloody Lane, and another article featured the Pry House. I’ll sell you mine if you want it. I also have deeds to several prominent New York City bridges, if you are interested.

      T.R. Livesey
      tlivesey@...

      On Sat Aug 18 19:58 , "Quentin Holt" sent:

      >One time during an Army Reserve drill weekend during the late 1980's, I
      >read in an article in Army Trainer magazine that if a person were to
      >lay his/her bedroll in the high weeds anywhere on the Sharpsburg
      >battlefield on the night of a September 17 to sleep there for the
      >night, the cries and moans of the wounded and the dying can be heard
      >again.
      >
      >Does anyone have any knowlege related to the veracity or lack thereof f
      >that statement in the Army Trainer?
      >
      >I wandered over all of the Sharpburg battlefield in July, 1991 and over
      >several other blood-soaked, ghost-haunted locations during that month-
      >long trip. I was at Gettysburg, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, The
      >Wilderness, Harper's Ferry, and Spotsylvania. I felt psychicly wounded
      >at all of them and feel that way again every time I think of them. I
      >typically break down and cry like I am doing now.
      >
      >I could have visited the Lincoln Monument as it was only a hundred
      >yards or so away from other places that I visited. I could not want to
      >see it. It grieves me that such a monster can be worshiped as though
      >he were god.
      >
      >Quentin Holt




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • G E Mayers
      Dear Mark, Your discussion could have some merit, but please be aware there will be others on this forum who will disagree. Specifically, what experiences
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 20, 2007
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        Dear Mark,

        Your discussion could have some merit, but please be aware there
        will be others on this forum who will disagree.

        Specifically, what experiences might you have had at the Sunken
        Road area of the Antietam battlefield?

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Mark Holt" <que182001@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 3:07 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Ghosts


        <snip>
      • T.R.Livesey
        Here s my ghost story. I know its true because my friend who knew somebody who worked for the park service overhead some people talking about it. Here s how it
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 20, 2007
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          Here's my ghost story. I know its true because my friend who knew somebody who worked for the park service overhead some people talking about it. Here's how it went:

          Several years ago some people were in the Dunker Church. Suddenly, a man burst in; he looked like he was running from someone or some thing. The curious thing was that he was disguised in women's clothing. He had an educated southern accent to his speech. Out of breath, he dragged himself up to the alter and kneeled in front of it and began to pray: "Dear Lord, Dear Lord. Hear me! I know I have committed a great sin against my fellow man, and now I beg for forgiveness! Please have mercy! Please let me rest! I have done wrong but I have suffered enough!" He then sobbed for a few moments, until the sound of many horses were heard to approach, and stopped just outside the church. From outside, one voice with a northern accent yelled "he's in there!" Another yelled "I've got the rope!" Still another yelled "There's an apple tree that will do just fine!" At this the man in the woman's dress started yelling "no! no!", and then faded away right before everyone's eyes! Everyone ran outside, but here were no horsemen, and nobody outside saw or heard anything unusual.

          And that's the honest truth as told to me, so help me God.

          T.R. Livesey
          tlivesey@...

          On Mon Aug 20 15:03 , tangogee@... sent:

          >
          >In a message dated 20/08/2007 18:55:07 GMT Daylight Time,
          >tlivesey@... writes:
          >
          >Are you suggesting that the spirit of John Brown has nothing better to do
          >than hang around and pose for photographs by tourists? Sounds more like the
          >ghost of Santa Claus. They both have wild, long beards, you know.
          >
          >I'll say it again: ghost are of no interest to the serious historian.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >I would say that is merely a matter of opinion and no amount of glib
          >attempts to justify such a sweeping generalisation will prove it to be accurate.
          >Ghosts are of no particular interest to me but I am not a serious historian just
          >an interested observer of those who dismiss anything they do not understand
          >or are disinterested in out of hand.
          >
          >Granville Marriott
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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        • T.R.Livesey
          Tom, I agree 100%. Is this documentary available? Sounds interesting. Actually, I do love a good ghost story. It started when my wife and I went to London and
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 20, 2007
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            Tom,

            I agree 100%. Is this documentary available? Sounds interesting. Actually, I do love a good ghost story. It started when my wife and I went to London and went on a "Jack the Ripper" ghost tour (we had already done the JtR history tour the time before). It was great fun, so now we do ghost tours everywhere we go: New Orleans, Savannah, etc. Mindless entertainment, but entertainment nonetheless. If nothing else, a nice way to visit a city after hours in a safe way.

            But it is just that: entertainment. Not history.

            T.R. Livesey
            tlivesey@...

            On Mon Aug 20 9:26 , 'Thomas Clemens' <clemenst@...> sent:

            >T.R.
            >One of my colleagues, who lives near Gettysburg, has done an interesting documentary film about the "ghost tour" industry and why it is so appealing to some people. Needless to say, his opinion mirrors your own, but the study of who these people are and why they go on tours was interesting.
            >Not surprisingly the motivation for offering them is $$$$$. The research is easy; make up a story around some real characters, and it is a proven money maker. Even if someone challenges the story they can say it is simply "a story. "
            >As for the Harpers Ferry story related in a recent post, it is pure fiction. I know several people who worked there at that time and this myth has been refuted time and time again. Mindless stuff.
            >
            >
            >Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            >Professor of History
            >Hagerstown Community College
            >
            >
            >
            >>>> T.R.Livesey tlivesey@...> 08/19/07 7:37 PM >>>
            >
            >I used to subscribe to Blue & Gray Magazine several years ago. It published lots of great tour material for the serious off the beaten path types. Unfortunately, it was only published 6 times a year, so each issue was kind of important. At some point they developed a tradition of doing 1 Gettysburg feature each June, no matter how overdone Gettysburg might be. By now they are probably down to doing ‘The General’ tours of Gettysburg outhouses. Worse, they also developed a tradition of doing a ‘Ghosts of the Civil War’ issue each October. Personally, I could not imagine a more ridiculous waste of paper than printing ghost stories; by comparison, Gettysburg outhouses sound kind of interesting. Here was a magazine which otherwise did an outstanding job of guiding the reader hands-on, through objective facts of civil war battles, and then 1 issue a year they blew that all away by filling their pages with silly ghost stories, which have absolutely no relevance for the serious historian. As far as I was concerned, this meant they really only published 4 times a year. After enduring several years of this nonsense, I cancelled my subscription.
            >
            >One of these issues (Fall 1997) featured ghost nonsense on The Irish Brigade at Bloody Lane, and another article featured the Pry House. I’ll sell you mine if you want it. I also have deeds to several prominent New York City bridges, if you are interested.
            >
            >T.R. Livesey
            >tlivesey@...
            >
            >On Sat Aug 18 19:58 , "Quentin Holt" sent:
            >
            >>One time during an Army Reserve drill weekend during the late 1980's, I
            >>read in an article in Army Trainer magazine that if a person were to
            >>lay his/her bedroll in the high weeds anywhere on the Sharpsburg
            >>battlefield on the night of a September 17 to sleep there for the
            >>night, the cries and moans of the wounded and the dying can be heard
            >>again.
            >>
            >>Does anyone have any knowlege related to the veracity or lack thereof f
            >>that statement in the Army Trainer?
            >>
            >>I wandered over all of the Sharpburg battlefield in July, 1991 and over
            >>several other blood-soaked, ghost-haunted locations during that month-
            >>long trip. I was at Gettysburg, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, The
            >>Wilderness, Harper's Ferry, and Spotsylvania. I felt psychicly wounded
            >>at all of them and feel that way again every time I think of them. I
            >>typically break down and cry like I am doing now.
            >>
            >>I could have visited the Lincoln Monument as it was only a hundred
            >>yards or so away from other places that I visited. I could not want to
            >>see it. It grieves me that such a monster can be worshiped as though
            >>he were god.
            >>
            >>Quentin Holt
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam/
            >
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          • Mark Holt
            At the Sunken Road, I was with a group of about three dozen other tourists and listening raptly to our tour guide. He wore a Park Service uniform, but I think
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 20, 2007
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              At the Sunken Road, I was with a group of about three dozen other tourists and listening raptly to our tour guide. He wore a Park Service uniform, but I think that he was an unpaid volunteer. He told us in detail what had happened there. I recall hearing about the green federal trainees who scarcely knew how to load their muskets but were good at drill and who marched in neat close-order to their deaths. The lay of the land exposed them to deadly head shots that they could not return from their location and were dead before they could march beyond that area. I recall hearing of the "Irish Brigage" that with swan loads in smooth-bore muskets that was mostly shot down before it could march to the maximum effective range of it's muskets to the road. The few that remained delivered a hail of bullets (four per shot) into the closely packed defenders. There was no way for them to miss. I recall seeing on an "interpretive sign" a horrid photograph taken after the battle.
              The road was deep in rags and bloated Confederate defenders who had eventually been almost flanked and exposed to enfilade fire. Those who survived that made a panicked retreat, and many were shot in the back as they ran for their lives.

              I spent an entire day at Sharpsburg and saw all of the battlefield. I asked a female Park Service ranger if the place every gave her the blues. She said that it did.

              G E Mayers <gerry1952@...> wrote:
              Dear Mark,

              Your discussion could have some merit, but please be aware there
              will be others on this forum who will disagree.

              Specifically, what experiences might you have had at the Sunken
              Road area of the Antietam battlefield?

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mark Holt" <que182001@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 3:07 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Ghosts

              <snip>








              test'; ">

              ---------------------------------
              Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Thomas Clemens
              I ll ask him if I can send you a copy, not sure if he had it released by anybody, etc. he made another this summer that is a mockumentary of ghost tours,
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 20, 2007
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                I'll ask him if I can send you a copy, not sure if he had it released by anybody, etc. he made another this summer that is a mockumentary of ghost tours, haven't seen it yet.
                Hate to spoil your ghost story of the Dunker Church, but it doesn't have, nor ever did have, an alter. Dunkers believe alters are idolatry. Oh well, another good story, shot to pieces....


                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College



                >>> T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> 08/20/07 4:14 PM >>>

                Tom,

                I agree 100%. Is this documentary available? Sounds interesting. Actually, I do love a good ghost story. It started when my wife and I went to London and went on a "Jack the Ripper" ghost tour (we had already done the JtR history tour the time before). It was great fun, so now we do ghost tours everywhere we go: New Orleans, Savannah, etc. Mindless entertainment, but entertainment nonetheless. If nothing else, a nice way to visit a city after hours in a safe way.

                But it is just that: entertainment. Not history.

                T.R. Livesey
                tlivesey@...

                On Mon Aug 20 9:26 , 'Thomas Clemens' <clemenst@...> sent:

                >T.R.
                >One of my colleagues, who lives near Gettysburg, has done an interesting documentary film about the "ghost tour" industry and why it is so appealing to some people. Needless to say, his opinion mirrors your own, but the study of who these people are and why they go on tours was interesting.
                >Not surprisingly the motivation for offering them is $$$$$. The research is easy; make up a story around some real characters, and it is a proven money maker. Even if someone challenges the story they can say it is simply "a story. "
                >As for the Harpers Ferry story related in a recent post, it is pure fiction. I know several people who worked there at that time and this myth has been refuted time and time again. Mindless stuff.
                >
                >
                >Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                >Professor of History
                >Hagerstown Community College
                >
                >
                >
                >>>> T.R.Livesey tlivesey@...> 08/19/07 7:37 PM >>>
                >
                >I used to subscribe to Blue & Gray Magazine several years ago. It published lots of great tour material for the serious off the beaten path types. Unfortunately, it was only published 6 times a year, so each issue was kind of important. At some point they developed a tradition of doing 1 Gettysburg feature each June, no matter how overdone Gettysburg might be. By now they are probably down to doing ‘The General’ tours of Gettysburg outhouses. Worse, they also developed a tradition of doing a ‘Ghosts of the Civil War’ issue each October. Personally, I could not imagine a more ridiculous waste of paper than printing ghost stories; by comparison, Gettysburg outhouses sound kind of interesting. Here was a magazine which otherwise did an outstanding job of guiding the reader hands-on, through objective facts of civil war battles, and then 1 issue a year they blew that all away by filling their pages with silly ghost stories, which have absolutely no relevance for the serious historian. As far as I was concerned, this meant they really only published 4 times a year. After enduring several years of this nonsense, I cancelled my subscription.
                >
                >One of these issues (Fall 1997) featured ghost nonsense on The Irish Brigade at Bloody Lane, and another article featured the Pry House. I’ll sell you mine if you want it. I also have deeds to several prominent New York City bridges, if you are interested.
                >
                >T.R. Livesey
                >tlivesey@...
                >
                >On Sat Aug 18 19:58 , "Quentin Holt" sent:
                >
                >>One time during an Army Reserve drill weekend during the late 1980's, I
                >>read in an article in Army Trainer magazine that if a person were to
                >>lay his/her bedroll in the high weeds anywhere on the Sharpsburg
                >>battlefield on the night of a September 17 to sleep there for the
                >>night, the cries and moans of the wounded and the dying can be heard
                >>again.
                >>
                >>Does anyone have any knowlege related to the veracity or lack thereof f
                >>that statement in the Army Trainer?
                >>
                >>I wandered over all of the Sharpburg battlefield in July, 1991 and over
                >>several other blood-soaked, ghost-haunted locations during that month-
                >>long trip. I was at Gettysburg, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, The
                >>Wilderness, Harper's Ferry, and Spotsylvania. I felt psychicly wounded
                >>at all of them and feel that way again every time I think of them. I
                >>typically break down and cry like I am doing now.
                >>
                >>I could have visited the Lincoln Monument as it was only a hundred
                >>yards or so away from other places that I visited. I could not want to
                >>see it. It grieves me that such a monster can be worshiped as though
                >>he were god.
                >>
                >>Quentin Holt
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam/
                >
                > Your email settings:
                > Individual Email | Traditional
                >
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • T.R.Livesey
                Tom, Sounds pretty cleaver. I hope it becomes available. As for the altar, yes that is true, but the gullible don t notice details like that. I can only tell
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 20, 2007
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                  Tom,

                  Sounds pretty cleaver. I hope it becomes available.

                  As for the altar, yes that is true, but the gullible don't notice details like that. I can only tell you what my friend told me...

                  Still not as crazy as John Brown posing for tourist photos. That cracks me up.

                  T.R. Livesey
                  tlivesey@...

                  On Mon Aug 20 15:48 , 'Thomas Clemens' <clemenst@...> sent:

                  >I'll ask him if I can send you a copy, not sure if he had it released by anybody, etc. he made another this summer that is a mockumentary of ghost tours, haven't seen it yet.
                  >Hate to spoil your ghost story of the Dunker Church, but it doesn't have, nor ever did have, an alter. Dunkers believe alters are idolatry. Oh well, another good story, shot to pieces....
                  >
                  >
                  >Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  >Professor of History
                  >Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>>> T.R.Livesey tlivesey@...> 08/20/07 4:14 PM >>>
                  >
                  >Tom,
                  >
                  >I agree 100%. Is this documentary available? Sounds interesting. Actually, I do love a good ghost story. It started when my wife and I went to London and went on a "Jack the Ripper" ghost tour (we had already done the JtR history tour the time before). It was great fun, so now we do ghost tours everywhere we go: New Orleans, Savannah, etc. Mindless entertainment, but entertainment nonetheless. If nothing else, a nice way to visit a city after hours in a safe way.
                  >
                  >But it is just that: entertainment. Not history.
                  >
                  >T.R. Livesey
                  >tlivesey@...
                  >
                  >On Mon Aug 20 9:26 , 'Thomas Clemens' clemenst@...> sent:
                  >
                  >>T.R.
                • G E Mayers
                  Dear Mark, While it is good to spend an entire day at Antietam, I have found, through many personal visits and tramps of the field, the field itself only gives
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 20, 2007
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                    Dear Mark,

                    While it is good to spend an entire day at Antietam, I have
                    found, through many personal visits and tramps of the field, the
                    field itself only gives up its secrets if one is persistent. Even
                    after all this time and all the visits I've made there, questions
                    still remain............

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Mark Holt" <que182001@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 4:28 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Ghosts


                    > At the Sunken Road, I was with a group of about three dozen
                    > other tourists and listening raptly to our tour guide. He wore
                    > a Park Service uniform, but I think that he was an unpaid
                    > volunteer. He told us in detail what had happened there. I
                    > recall hearing about the green federal trainees who scarcely
                    > knew how to load their muskets but were good at drill and who
                    > marched in neat close-order to their deaths. The lay of the
                    > land exposed them to deadly head shots that they could not
                    > return from their location and were dead before they could
                    > march beyond that area. I recall hearing of the "Irish
                    > Brigage" that with swan loads in smooth-bore muskets that was
                    > mostly shot down before it could march to the maximum effective
                    > range of it's muskets to the road. The few that remained
                    > delivered a hail of bullets (four per shot) into the closely
                    > packed defenders. There was no way for them to miss. I recall
                    > seeing on an "interpretive sign" a horrid photograph taken
                    > after the battle.
                    > The road was deep in rags and bloated Confederate defenders
                    > who had eventually been almost flanked and exposed to enfilade
                    > fire. Those who survived that made a panicked retreat, and
                    > many were shot in the back as they ran for their lives.
                    >
                    > I spent an entire day at Sharpsburg and saw all of the
                    > battlefield. I asked a female Park Service ranger if the place
                    > every gave her the blues. She said that it did.
                    >
                    > G E Mayers <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                    > Dear Mark,
                    >
                    > Your discussion could have some merit, but please be aware
                    > there
                    > will be others on this forum who will disagree.
                    >
                    > Specifically, what experiences might you have had at the Sunken
                    > Road area of the Antietam battlefield?
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                    > from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Mark Holt" <que182001@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 3:07 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Ghosts
                    >
                    > <snip>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > test'; ">
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join
                    > Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • richard@rcroker.com
                    Boo! ... From: T.R.Livesey To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Ghosts Here s my ghost story. I
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 21, 2007
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                      Boo!
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: T.R.Livesey
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 4:10 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Ghosts


                      Here's my ghost story. I know its true because my friend who knew somebody who worked for the park service overhead some people talking about it. Here's how it went:

                      Several years ago some people were in the Dunker Church. Suddenly, a man burst in; he looked like he was running from someone or some thing. The curious thing was that he was disguised in women's clothing. He had an educated southern accent to his speech. Out of breath, he dragged himself up to the alter and kneeled in front of it and began to pray: "Dear Lord, Dear Lord. Hear me! I know I have committed a great sin against my fellow man, and now I beg for forgiveness! Please have mercy! Please let me rest! I have done wrong but I have suffered enough!" He then sobbed for a few moments, until the sound of many horses were heard to approach, and stopped just outside the church. From outside, one voice with a northern accent yelled "he's in there!" Another yelled "I've got the rope!" Still another yelled "There's an apple tree that will do just fine!" At this the man in the woman's dress started yelling "no! no!", and then faded away right before everyone's eyes! Everyone ran outside, but here were no horsemen, and nobody outside saw or heard anything unusual.

                      And that's the honest truth as told to me, so help me God.

                      T.R. Livesey
                      tlivesey@...

                      On Mon Aug 20 15:03 , tangogee@... sent:

                      >
                      >In a message dated 20/08/2007 18:55:07 GMT Daylight Time,
                      >tlivesey@... writes:
                      >
                      >Are you suggesting that the spirit of John Brown has nothing better to do
                      >than hang around and pose for photographs by tourists? Sounds more like the
                      >ghost of Santa Claus. They both have wild, long beards, you know.
                      >
                      >I'll say it again: ghost are of no interest to the serious historian.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >I would say that is merely a matter of opinion and no amount of glib
                      >attempts to justify such a sweeping generalisation will prove it to be accurate.
                      >Ghosts are of no particular interest to me but I am not a serious historian just
                      >an interested observer of those who dismiss anything they do not understand
                      >or are disinterested in out of hand.
                      >
                      >Granville Marriott
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bud Wilkinson
                      In the times that I have stayed at the Cashtown Inn it seems as though at least 50 percent of those staying there were there only to look for ghosts. Gee, I
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 21, 2007
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                        In the times that I have stayed at the Cashtown Inn it seems as though at
                        least 50 percent of those staying there were there only to look for
                        ghosts. Gee, I never saw or heard any. Sometimes a think a little creak
                        in a floorboard means a ghost is afoot to some.

                        During the 135 anniversary of Antietam in 1997 a friend of mine took a
                        photo that seems to be amazing. It clearly shows ghosts marching among the
                        clouds.
                        Hint.....it's an accidental double exposure, but it sure is neat. If the
                        group would like to see it I will send it along. Just let me know.

                        Bud Wilkinson
                      • G E Mayers
                        Dear Bud, Glad to hear from you finally after all these years. Sure, see if you can post the photo! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either
                        Message 11 of 30 , Aug 21, 2007
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                          Dear Bud,

                          Glad to hear from you finally after all these years. Sure, see if
                          you can post the photo!

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Bud Wilkinson" <gwilk@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:11 AM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Ghosts


                          > In the times that I have stayed at the Cashtown Inn it seems as
                          > though at
                          > least 50 percent of those staying there were there only to look
                          > for
                          > ghosts. Gee, I never saw or heard any. Sometimes a think a
                          > little creak
                          > in a floorboard means a ghost is afoot to some.
                          >
                          > During the 135 anniversary of Antietam in 1997 a friend of mine
                          > took a
                          > photo that seems to be amazing. It clearly shows ghosts
                          > marching among the
                          > clouds.
                          > Hint.....it's an accidental double exposure, but it sure is
                          > neat. If the
                          > group would like to see it I will send it along. Just let me
                          > know.
                          >
                          > Bud Wilkinson
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
                          Clothing and garments do not die, so isn t reasonable that ghosts (if they exist) would all be naked? Bill Christen [Non-text portions of this message have
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 21, 2007
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                            Clothing and garments do not die, so isn't reasonable that ghosts (if they exist) would all be naked?

                            Bill Christen

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Mark Holt
                            This is complicated. It cuts to the physics of matter and energy and consciousness. I do not understand the details of it, but I am given to believe by
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 21, 2007
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                              This is complicated. It cuts to the physics of matter and energy and consciousness. I do not understand the details of it, but I am given to believe by people whom I imagine are smarter than I that the difference between solidity of a chunk of firewood and the heat of a fire is merely a matter of vibrational frequency and amplitude. Thoughts are energy and matter is energy in a different form. Your mind is not your body and you are not your body. Your body is a vehicle that allows you to operate in this dense, heavy plane that it is tuned to.

                              In the spirit worlds, your thoughtforms can take on a reality that seems independent of you when they are finished and probably is. Want a new house? In the astral, you can just think it up, and it seems as real as your present house built with hammer, nails, and sweat in this dimension.

                              People whose mortal bodies have failed them ("dead people" as we commonly refer to them) can and frequently do reconstruct their bodies and their clothes in astral form. Often they leave off the feet or we just are not able to perceive them. When we "see a ghost," that astral frequency, very near to ours, is bleeding into our bandwidth of reception and perception.

                              Actually, we broadcast energy into the astral constantly. There are some "ghosts" in the astral planes whose bodies in this physical plane are merely asleep, allowing their astral forms to travel where they will until wake-up time. They are attached by a silver chord of infinite flexibility.

                              When you pass to the spirit world, try this: First, imagine yourself naked. You will become so immediately if you were not to begin with. Then imagine yourself wearing a bikini of your favorite color. Picture it in your mind. As quick as a thought, it will be there. Then imagine yourself holding a million dollars. Think of how heavy it will be and the colors and the numbers on the greenbacks, what the money is contained in, etc. Of course, you might feel silly with a million dollars in the spirit world. Material things and dollars have not much value there.

                              Bill and Glenna Jo Christen <gwjchris@...> wrote:
                              Clothing and garments do not die, so isn't reasonable that ghosts (if they exist) would all be naked?

                              Bill Christen

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                              test'; ">

                              ---------------------------------
                              Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Thomas Clemens
                              I got to the point where I was supposed to imagine myself in a bikini and just couldn t stop laughing after that. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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                                I got to the point where I was supposed to imagine myself in a bikini and just couldn't stop laughing after that.


                                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                Professor of History
                                Hagerstown Community College



                                >>> Mark Holt <que182001@...> 08/21/07 10:11 PM >>>

                                This is complicated. It cuts to the physics of matter and energy and consciousness. I do not understand the details of it, but I am given to believe by people whom I imagine are smarter than I that the difference between solidity of a chunk of firewood and the heat of a fire is merely a matter of vibrational frequency and amplitude. Thoughts are energy and matter is energy in a different form. Your mind is not your body and you are not your body. Your body is a vehicle that allows you to operate in this dense, heavy plane that it is tuned to.

                                In the spirit worlds, your thoughtforms can take on a reality that seems independent of you when they are finished and probably is. Want a new house? In the astral, you can just think it up, and it seems as real as your present house built with hammer, nails, and sweat in this dimension.

                                People whose mortal bodies have failed them ("dead people" as we commonly refer to them) can and frequently do reconstruct their bodies and their clothes in astral form. Often they leave off the feet or we just are not able to perceive them. When we "see a ghost," that astral frequency, very near to ours, is bleeding into our bandwidth of reception and perception.

                                Actually, we broadcast energy into the astral constantly. There are some "ghosts" in the astral planes whose bodies in this physical plane are merely asleep, allowing their astral forms to travel where they will until wake-up time. They are attached by a silver chord of infinite flexibility.

                                When you pass to the spirit world, try this: First, imagine yourself naked. You will become so immediately if you were not to begin with. Then imagine yourself wearing a bikini of your favorite color. Picture it in your mind. As quick as a thought, it will be there. Then imagine yourself holding a million dollars. Think of how heavy it will be and the colors and the numbers on the greenbacks, what the money is contained in, etc. Of course, you might feel silly with a million dollars in the spirit world. Material things and dollars have not much value there.

                                Bill and Glenna Jo Christen <gwjchris@...> wrote:
                                Clothing and garments do not die, so isn't reasonable that ghosts (if they exist) would all be naked?

                                Bill Christen

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                test'; ">

                                ---------------------------------
                                Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Stephen Recker
                                Tom, I really didn t need that image in my head. Thanks for sharing Stephen
                                Message 15 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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                                  Tom,

                                  I really didn't need that image in my head. Thanks for sharing <g>

                                  Stephen

                                  On Wednesday, August 22, 2007, at 09:35 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                                  > I got to the point where I was supposed to imagine myself in a bikini
                                  > and just couldn't stop laughing after that.
                                  >
                                • Harry Smeltzer
                                  Says who? You ever been? ... 10:11 PM Of course, you might feel silly with a million dollars in the spirit world. Material things and dollars have not
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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                                    Says who? You ever been?


                                    >>> Mark Holt <que182001@yahoo. <mailto:que182001%40yahoo.com> com> 08/21/07
                                    10:11 PM >>>

                                    Of course, you might feel silly with a million dollars in the spirit world.
                                    Material things and dollars have not much value there.





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Harry Smeltzer
                                    There s a nice picture of a fully clothed Tom (a rare find indeed!) on the SHAF site (www.shaf.org ) presenting a nice check to ANB
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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                                      There's a nice picture of a fully clothed Tom (a rare find indeed!) on the
                                      SHAF site (www.shaf.org <http://www.shaf.org/> ) presenting a nice check to
                                      ANB staff.

                                      Also a full schedule for the Heritage Festival.

                                      Harry



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:47 AM
                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] RE: Ghosts



                                      Tom,

                                      I really didn't need that image in my head. Thanks for sharing <g>

                                      Stephen

                                      On Wednesday, August 22, 2007, at 09:35 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                                      > I got to the point where I was supposed to imagine myself in a bikini
                                      > and just couldn't stop laughing after that.
                                      >





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Thomas Clemens
                                      Really him, or his ghost? Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community College ... There s a nice picture of a fully clothed Tom (a rare
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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                                        Really him, or his ghost?

                                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                        Professor of History
                                        Hagerstown Community College



                                        >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 08/22/07 10:05 AM >>>

                                        There's a nice picture of a fully clothed Tom (a rare find indeed!) on the
                                        SHAF site (www.shaf.org <http://www.shaf.org/> ) presenting a nice check to
                                        ANB staff.

                                        Also a full schedule for the Heritage Festival.

                                        Harry

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                                        Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:47 AM
                                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] RE: Ghosts

                                        Tom,

                                        I really didn't need that image in my head. Thanks for sharing <g>

                                        Stephen

                                        On Wednesday, August 22, 2007, at 09:35 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                                        > I got to the point where I was supposed to imagine myself in a bikini
                                        > and just couldn't stop laughing after that.
                                        >

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • T.R.Livesey
                                        Ok, so if I follow your reasoning, why wasn t the ghost of John Brown dressed in a bikini? T.R. Livesey tlivesey@westwoodgalleries.com
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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                                          Ok, so if I follow your reasoning, why wasn't the ghost of John Brown dressed in a bikini?

                                          T.R. Livesey
                                          tlivesey@...


                                          >>>> Mark Holt que182001@...> 08/21/07 10:11 PM >>>
                                          >
                                          >This is complicated. It cuts to the physics of matter and energy and consciousness. I do not understand the details of it, but I am given to believe by people whom I imagine are smarter than I that the difference between solidity of a chunk of firewood and the heat of a fire is merely a matter of vibrational frequency and amplitude. Thoughts are energy and matter is energy in a different form. Your mind is not your body and you are not your body. Your body is a vehicle that allows you to operate in this dense, heavy plane that it is tuned to.
                                          >
                                          >In the spirit worlds, your thoughtforms can take on a reality that seems independent of you when they are finished and probably is. Want a new house? In the astral, you can just think it up, and it seems as real as your present house built with hammer, nails, and sweat in this dimension.
                                          >
                                          >People whose mortal bodies have failed them ("dead people" as we commonly refer to them) can and frequently do reconstruct their bodies and their clothes in astral form. Often they leave off the feet or we just are not able to perceive them. When we "see a ghost," that astral frequency, very near to ours, is bleeding into our bandwidth of reception and perception.
                                          >
                                          >Actually, we broadcast energy into the astral constantly. There are some "ghosts" in the astral planes whose bodies in this physical plane are merely asleep, allowing their astral forms to travel where they will until wake-up time. They are attached by a silver chord of infinite flexibility.
                                          >
                                          >When you pass to the spirit world, try this: First, imagine yourself naked. You will become so immediately if you were not to begin with. Then imagine yourself wearing a bikini of your favorite color. Picture it in your mind. As quick as a thought, it will be there. Then imagine yourself holding a million dollars. Think of how heavy it will be and the colors and the numbers on the greenbacks, what the money is contained in, etc. Of course, you might feel silly with a million dollars in the spirit world. Material things and dollars have not much value there.
                                          >
                                          >Bill and Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@...> wrote:
                                          >Clothing and garments do not die, so isn't reasonable that ghosts (if they exist) would all be naked?
                                          >
                                          >Bill Christen
                                          >
                                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >test'; ">
                                          >
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                                          >Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
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                                          >
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                                        • bdowney@aotw.org
                                          Hello friends, Let s see if we can t bring this ghost thread back around to something to do with the Maryland Campaign of 1862, ok? Thanks, Brian
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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                                            Hello friends,

                                            Let's see if we can't bring this ghost thread back around to something to do with the Maryland Campaign of 1862, ok?

                                            Thanks,
                                            Brian
                                          • G E Mayers
                                            Dear Brian, I agree...it has gotten out of hand.... Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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                                              Dear Brian,

                                              I agree...it has gotten out of hand....

                                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: <bdowney@...>
                                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:59 PM
                                              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] RE: Ghosts


                                              > Hello friends,
                                              >
                                              > Let's see if we can't bring this ghost thread back around to
                                              > something to do with the Maryland Campaign of 1862, ok?
                                              >
                                              > Thanks,
                                              > Brian
                                              >
                                            • Mark Holt
                                              Oh, I don t know. He probably never thought of such a thing is his life. If he did, he probably squashed the image out of his mind immediately as sinful and
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Aug 22, 2007
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                                                Oh, I don't know. He probably never thought of such a thing is his life. If he did, he probably squashed the image out of his mind immediately as sinful and vulgar. John Brown was intensely religious in his own narrow sort of way. He did have the build for a brief swimsuit but not the temperment.

                                                I very much like bikinis though. I wear brief Speedo-style swimwear, and I swim laps often for exercise. I swam across the Potomac (close to where Antietam Creek flows into it) and back too in 1991. The exercise keeps me looking good in bikini-type swimsuits even though I am only one year younger than John Brown was in the last year of his life.

                                                I very much agree that this ghost subject has gone on long enough for this forum, and with this I have ended my part of it.

                                                John Brown was a very interesting fellow. Most people who know anything of him at all just dismiss him as a scarey and dangerous old crazy man who got a lot of people killed. He was that in spades, but he was also a man of self-education and very much a man of experience and principle. My guess is that he became a mental case mostly as a result of his experiences in Bleeding Kansas and possibly for some degeneration of his brain contributed to by age and stress. During the 1840's, he was among the nation's foremost experts on raising sheep and producing wool. He had ideas that, if followed, would have made lucrative inroads for American wool growers to supply Britain's woolen industry. Before the real estate and banking crisis of 1837, he had even been rich.

                                                John Brown and the kind of mentality that he represented was a terrible scare to the slaveholders of America. Many of them knew in their hearts that he was right about slavery being an evil thing as many Americans practiced it. Most of those who did not feared that he was. All knew that men like John Brown would never compromise. Yet what could they do? Imagine yourselves in their place. Imagine how they felt when northern newspapers praised John Brown's actions at Harper's Ferry. A general slave insurrection like the one that John Brown envisioned really would "purge this land in blood." It seemed to the white people in the slave states that northerners literally wanted them dead; murdered in their own beds. Would you want to share a nation with millions of people who felt that way about you?

                                                As you well know, after the federal and northern state victory at Sharpsburg, President Lincoln issued his famous (or infamous) "Emancipation Proclamation." If the Confederacy was bogus like Lincoln & Co. held that it was, then its member states must have been still member states of the United States. The Constitution gave no power to the general government of the United States or to the President to confiscate property private property save by due process of law. Nor did the Constitution give power to the general government to wage war on member states. Furthermore, the Constitution made no distinction between slave property and any other property. The Emancipation Proclamation specifically applied only to those states over which the United States government had no actual control at that time. It seemed to a lot of people, and it seems to me now, that the Emancipation Proclamation was a deliberate attempt to incite a general slave insurrection or many smaller ones
                                                in the Confederacy. It was for that cause that Lincoln held the document in secrecy until he could announce it after a major military victory. That victory was at Sharpsburg. He imagined somehow that doing so would make it seem less on its surface to be a cruel incitement to the mass murder of civilians than it would if he had announced it soon after he had written it.

                                                Mark Holt

                                                "T.R.Livesey" <tlivesey@...> wrote:
                                                Ok, so if I follow your reasoning, why wasn't the ghost of John Brown dressed in a bikini?

                                                T.R. Livesey
                                                tlivesey@...

                                                >>>> Mark Holt que182001@...> 08/21/07 10:11 PM >>>
                                                >
                                                >This is complicated. It cuts to the physics of matter and energy and consciousness. I do not understand the details of it, but I am given to believe by people whom I imagine are smarter than I that the difference between solidity of a chunk of firewood and the heat of a fire is merely a matter of vibrational frequency and amplitude. Thoughts are energy and matter is energy in a different form. Your mind is not your body and you are not your body. Your body is a vehicle that allows you to operate in this dense, heavy plane that it is tuned to.
                                                >
                                                >In the spirit worlds, your thoughtforms can take on a reality that seems independent of you when they are finished and probably is. Want a new house? In the astral, you can just think it up, and it seems as real as your present house built with hammer, nails, and sweat in this dimension.
                                                >
                                                >People whose mortal bodies have failed them ("dead people" as we commonly refer to them) can and frequently do reconstruct their bodies and their clothes in astral form. Often they leave off the feet or we just are not able to perceive them. When we "see a ghost," that astral frequency, very near to ours, is bleeding into our bandwidth of reception and perception.
                                                >
                                                >Actually, we broadcast energy into the astral constantly. There are some "ghosts" in the astral planes whose bodies in this physical plane are merely asleep, allowing their astral forms to travel where they will until wake-up time. They are attached by a silver chord of infinite flexibility.
                                                >
                                                >When you pass to the spirit world, try this: First, imagine yourself naked. You will become so immediately if you were not to begin with. Then imagine yourself wearing a bikini of your favorite color. Picture it in your mind. As quick as a thought, it will be there. Then imagine yourself holding a million dollars. Think of how heavy it will be and the colors and the numbers on the greenbacks, what the money is contained in, etc. Of course, you might feel silly with a million dollars in the spirit world. Material things and dollars have not much value there.
                                                >
                                                >Bill and Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@...> wrote:
                                                >Clothing and garments do not die, so isn't reasonable that ghosts (if they exist) would all be naked?
                                                >
                                                >Bill Christen
                                                >
                                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >test'; ">
                                                >
                                                >---------------------------------
                                                >Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
                                                >
                                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • T.R.Livesey
                                                I have visited John Brown sites from Maryland to Kansas; I have admired his portrait in the “Hall of Heroes” at the DuSable Museum of African American
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Aug 23, 2007
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                                                  I have visited John Brown sites from Maryland to Kansas; I have admired his portrait in the ���Hall of Heroes��� at the DuSable Museum of African American History (the only white portrait there, if I remember correctly). John Brown was no crazier than anyone else with religious convictions. His primary distinction was that he took his moral guidance from 1 and only 1 source: Scripture. Richard Dawkins points out in his book ���The God Delusion��� that most Americans today (and I would guess by extension 19th century Americans, although perhaps to a lesser rate) are at odds with the wanton killing, rape, child abuse, incest, polygamy and slavery condoned by and even demanded by God in the Bible; therefore���even if they deny it���they must take their moral instruction from some other source or at least augment their Biblical morality with morality from other sources. This was not the case for John Brown: he took his moral instruction from Scripture and Scripture alone, and was not afraid to allow his convictions to guide his actions to their natural conclusions. If you think that���s crazy, well���that���s your call.

                                                  I find your grasp of history and law about as authoritative as your grasp of physics. Needless to say, I could quote any number of Southern leaders, politicians, clergymen, etc. who in fact argued that slavery was a great good: good for the slaves rescued from barbarity and good for Southern civilizations and ordained by God. If ���many��� southerners allowed themselves to be led by these leaders against their better judgment, I certainly have no sympathy for them, just as I have no sympathy for Germans who went to fight for Hitler even if they didn���t buy into his anti-Semitism.

                                                  T.R. Livesey
                                                  tlivesey@...

                                                  On Thu Aug 23 0:05 , Mark Holt <que182001@...> sent:

                                                  >Oh, I don't know. He probably never thought of such a thing is his life. If he did, he probably squashed the image out of his mind immediately as sinful and vulgar. John Brown was intensely religious in his own narrow sort of way. He did have the build for a brief swimsuit but not the temperment.
                                                  >
                                                  > I very much like bikinis though. I wear brief Speedo-style swimwear, and I swim laps often for exercise. I swam across the Potomac (close to where Antietam Creek flows into it) and back too in 1991. The exercise keeps me looking good in bikini-type swimsuits even though I am only one year younger than John Brown was in the last year of his life.
                                                  >
                                                  > I very much agree that this ghost subject has gone on long enough for this forum, and with this I have ended my part of it.
                                                  >
                                                  > John Brown was a very interesting fellow. Most people who know anything of him at all just dismiss him as a scarey and dangerous old crazy man who got a lot of people killed. He was that in spades, but he was also a man of self-education and very much a man of experience and principle. My guess is that he became a mental case mostly as a result of his experiences in Bleeding Kansas and possibly for some degeneration of his brain contributed to by age and stress. During the 1840's, he was among the nation's foremost experts on raising sheep and producing wool. He had ideas that, if followed, would have made lucrative inroads for American wool growers to supply Britain's woolen industry. Before the real estate and banking crisis of 1837, he had even been rich.
                                                  >
                                                  > John Brown and the kind of mentality that he represented was a terrible scare to the slaveholders of America. Many of them knew in their hearts that he was right about slavery being an evil thing as many Americans practiced it. Most of those who did not feared that he was. All knew that men like John Brown would never compromise. Yet what could they do? Imagine yourselves in their place. Imagine how they felt when northern newspapers praised John Brown's actions at Harper's Ferry. A general slave insurrection like the one that John Brown envisioned really would "purge this land in blood." It seemed to the white people in the slave states that northerners literally wanted them dead; murdered in their own beds. Would you want to share a nation with millions of people who felt that way about you?
                                                  >
                                                  > As you well know, after the federal and northern state victory at Sharpsburg, President Lincoln issued his famous (or infamous) "Emancipation Proclamation." If the Confederacy was bogus like Lincoln & Co. held that it was, then its member states must have been still member states of the United States. The Constitution gave no power to the general government of the United States or to the President to confiscate property private property save by due process of law. Nor did the Constitution give power to the general government to wage war on member states. Furthermore, the Constitution made no distinction between slave property and any other property. The Emancipation Proclamation specifically applied only to those states over which the United States government had no actual control at that time. It seemed to a lot of people, and it seems to me now, that the Emancipation Proclamation was a deliberate attempt to incite a general slave insurrection or many smaller ones
                                                  > in the Confederacy. It was for that cause that Lincoln held the document in secrecy until he could announce it after a major military victory. That victory was at Sharpsburg. He imagined somehow that doing so would make it seem less on its surface to be a cruel incitement to the mass murder of civilians than it would if he had announced it soon after he had written it.
                                                  >
                                                  > Mark Holt
                                                  >
                                                • richard@rcroker.com
                                                  I love intensely religious people who are capable of hacking a man to death with a machete. Just cause or wrong, I have read most of the Gospels and it
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Aug 23, 2007
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                                                    I love "intensely religious" people who are capable of hacking a man to death with a machete. Just cause or wrong, I have read most of the Gospels and it seems a bit contradictory to me somehow. But hey -- what do I know?


                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: Mark Holt
                                                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:05 AM
                                                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] RE: Ghosts


                                                    Oh, I don't know. He probably never thought of such a thing is his life. If he did, he probably squashed the image out of his mind immediately as sinful and vulgar. John Brown was intensely religious in his own narrow sort of way. He did have the build for a brief swimsuit but not the temperment.

                                                    I very much like bikinis though. I wear brief Speedo-style swimwear, and I swim laps often for exercise. I swam across the Potomac (close to where Antietam Creek flows into it) and back too in 1991. The exercise keeps me looking good in bikini-type swimsuits even though I am only one year younger than John Brown was in the last year of his life.

                                                    I very much agree that this ghost subject has gone on long enough for this forum, and with this I have ended my part of it.

                                                    John Brown was a very interesting fellow. Most people who know anything of him at all just dismiss him as a scarey and dangerous old crazy man who got a lot of people killed. He was that in spades, but he was also a man of self-education and very much a man of experience and principle. My guess is that he became a mental case mostly as a result of his experiences in Bleeding Kansas and possibly for some degeneration of his brain contributed to by age and stress. During the 1840's, he was among the nation's foremost experts on raising sheep and producing wool. He had ideas that, if followed, would have made lucrative inroads for American wool growers to supply Britain's woolen industry. Before the real estate and banking crisis of 1837, he had even been rich.

                                                    John Brown and the kind of mentality that he represented was a terrible scare to the slaveholders of America. Many of them knew in their hearts that he was right about slavery being an evil thing as many Americans practiced it. Most of those who did not feared that he was. All knew that men like John Brown would never compromise. Yet what could they do? Imagine yourselves in their place. Imagine how they felt when northern newspapers praised John Brown's actions at Harper's Ferry. A general slave insurrection like the one that John Brown envisioned really would "purge this land in blood." It seemed to the white people in the slave states that northerners literally wanted them dead; murdered in their own beds. Would you want to share a nation with millions of people who felt that way about you?

                                                    As you well know, after the federal and northern state victory at Sharpsburg, President Lincoln issued his famous (or infamous) "Emancipation Proclamation." If the Confederacy was bogus like Lincoln & Co. held that it was, then its member states must have been still member states of the United States. The Constitution gave no power to the general government of the United States or to the President to confiscate property private property save by due process of law. Nor did the Constitution give power to the general government to wage war on member states. Furthermore, the Constitution made no distinction between slave property and any other property. The Emancipation Proclamation specifically applied only to those states over which the United States government had no actual control at that time. It seemed to a lot of people, and it seems to me now, that the Emancipation Proclamation was a deliberate attempt to incite a general slave insurrection or many smaller ones
                                                    in the Confederacy. It was for that cause that Lincoln held the document in secrecy until he could announce it after a major military victory. That victory was at Sharpsburg. He imagined somehow that doing so would make it seem less on its surface to be a cruel incitement to the mass murder of civilians than it would if he had announced it soon after he had written it.

                                                    Mark Holt

                                                    "T.R.Livesey" <tlivesey@...> wrote:
                                                    Ok, so if I follow your reasoning, why wasn't the ghost of John Brown dressed in a bikini?

                                                    T.R. Livesey
                                                    tlivesey@...

                                                    >>>> Mark Holt que182001@...> 08/21/07 10:11 PM >>>
                                                    >
                                                    >This is complicated. It cuts to the physics of matter and energy and consciousness. I do not understand the details of it, but I am given to believe by people whom I imagine are smarter than I that the difference between solidity of a chunk of firewood and the heat of a fire is merely a matter of vibrational frequency and amplitude. Thoughts are energy and matter is energy in a different form. Your mind is not your body and you are not your body. Your body is a vehicle that allows you to operate in this dense, heavy plane that it is tuned to.
                                                    >
                                                    >In the spirit worlds, your thoughtforms can take on a reality that seems independent of you when they are finished and probably is. Want a new house? In the astral, you can just think it up, and it seems as real as your present house built with hammer, nails, and sweat in this dimension.
                                                    >
                                                    >People whose mortal bodies have failed them ("dead people" as we commonly refer to them) can and frequently do reconstruct their bodies and their clothes in astral form. Often they leave off the feet or we just are not able to perceive them. When we "see a ghost," that astral frequency, very near to ours, is bleeding into our bandwidth of reception and perception.
                                                    >
                                                    >Actually, we broadcast energy into the astral constantly. There are some "ghosts" in the astral planes whose bodies in this physical plane are merely asleep, allowing their astral forms to travel where they will until wake-up time. They are attached by a silver chord of infinite flexibility.
                                                    >
                                                    >When you pass to the spirit world, try this: First, imagine yourself naked. You will become so immediately if you were not to begin with. Then imagine yourself wearing a bikini of your favorite color. Picture it in your mind. As quick as a thought, it will be there. Then imagine yourself holding a million dollars. Think of how heavy it will be and the colors and the numbers on the greenbacks, what the money is contained in, etc. Of course, you might feel silly with a million dollars in the spirit world. Material things and dollars have not much value there.
                                                    >
                                                    >Bill and Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@...> wrote:
                                                    >Clothing and garments do not die, so isn't reasonable that ghosts (if they exist) would all be naked?
                                                    >
                                                    >Bill Christen
                                                    >
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