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[TalkAntietam] Re: Question

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  • Thomas Clemens
    TR, I couldn t agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings. Great if you want to
    Message 1 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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      TR,
      I couldn't agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings. Great if you want to know crops types, fences, etc. but not good for understanding the battle. Preist used this map, but the whole thing never appears in the book so if you don't know the field to begin with, you'll be lost like a hiccup in a hurricane. Also he used some odd symbols for artillery, etc.
      Tom Clemen

      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College

      s
      >>> "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...> 05/30/07 1:36 PM >>>

      Gerry,

      In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
      James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
      of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
      use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
      There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
      shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
      been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.

      Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
      I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
      similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
      of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

      From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
      challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
      expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
      maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
      really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
      in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
      the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
      How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
      a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
      important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
      clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
      to look at and readers are drawn to them.

      The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
      use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
      whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
      map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
      makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
      of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
      necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
      these others.

      TRL

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Todd,
      >
      > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
      >
      >
      > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
      > Priest's
      > maps are better than Sears'.
      >
      > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
      > course, is
      > in a class of its own.
      >
      > TRL
      >

      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James W. Durney
      ... example, ... appreciate ... think ... more ... I think Anitetam cannot be understood w/o elevation markings. My first chance to walk the battlefield was a
      Message 2 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
        > challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
        > expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
        > maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
        > really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For
        example,
        > in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot
        appreciate
        > the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
        > How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I
        think
        > a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is
        more
        > important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
        > clover, etc.).


        I think Anitetam cannot be understood w/o elevation markings. My
        first chance to walk the battlefield was a revelation that I will
        never forget. Neither Sears, Priest or Harsh had told me how much
        elevation impacts the battle.

        James
      • T. R. Livesey
        Murfin s maps also suffer somewhat from the problem that there is no image of the whole battlefield, making orientation difficult. Since I owned a copy of the
        Message 3 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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          Murfin's maps also suffer somewhat from the problem that there is no
          image of the whole battlefield, making orientation difficult. Since I
          owned a copy of the Parks and History Association map before I read
          any of these books, I never really had a problem with orientation.

          While it is certainly not the 'best' book (at least not for an overall
          introduction to the battle), Luvaas & Nelson's "US Army War College
          Guide to the Battle of Antietam" is worthy of mention, particularly
          for actually visiting the battlefield and related sites at S Mountain
          and Harper's Ferry. Definitely the best driving directions for getting
          around S Mountain. Whenever I take visitor's to the battlefield, I
          always take the route that they suggest: start at the Pry House, then
          to the Keedysville road, over the little Antietam, past Pry's Mill,
          over the upper bridge, down the Smoketown road into the east woods.
          Not only does it take you past fields, roads and houses that look like
          they haven't changed much since 1862, but it also gives a good sense
          the kind of ground in the area. And, there will be no other tourists
          entering the battlefield from that route. At first glance their maps
          are somewhat primitive, but they do show contour lines, which in my
          opinion makes them far more useful than the maps in the other three.
          Cute symbols for corn and clover and stubble are cool but they just
          don't work when the map is reduced to book page size. Also
          indispensable if you are using the map while visiting the battlefield
          is the inclusion of modern features (e.g. roads, structures and tour
          stops) so that you can figure out where you are in relation to the
          historical features. None of the big three's maps show modern
          features, but the Luvaas & Nelson maps do. It's too bad that Luvaas &
          Nelson only did little map segments at Antietam to illustrate the
          portions of ground they study instead of producing a whole battlefield
          map because I think they had the right idea given the limitations of
          maps that appear in a book. Their map of the Harper's Ferry area is great.

          TRL

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > TR,
          > I couldn't agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the
          Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings.
          Great if you want to know crops types, fences, etc. but not good for
          understanding the battle. Preist used this map, but the whole thing
          never appears in the book so if you don't know the field to begin
          with, you'll be lost like a hiccup in a hurricane. Also he used some
          odd symbols for artillery, etc.
          > Tom Clemen
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >
          > s
          > >>> "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...> 05/30/07 1:36 PM >>>
          >
          > Gerry,
          >
          > In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
          > James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
          > of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
          > use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
          > There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
          > shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
          > been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.
          >
          > Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
          > I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
          > similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
          > of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.
          >
          > From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
          > challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
          > expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
          > maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
          > really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
          > in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
          > the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
          > How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
          > a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
          > important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
          > clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
          > to look at and readers are drawn to them.
          >
          > The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
          > use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
          > whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
          > map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
          > makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
          > of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
          > necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
          > these others.
          >
          > TRL
          >
        • Stephen Recker
          Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks. Stephen Recker
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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            Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.

            Stephen Recker
          • G E Mayers
            Stephen, What other information do you have about his unit? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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              Stephen,

              What other information do you have about his unit?

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:41 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lt. March of the 32nd MA


              > Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.
              >
              > Stephen Recker
              >
              >
            • Stephen Recker
              I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson, some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper s Ferry that, I
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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                I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson,
                some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper's
                Ferry that, "I will meet you in Sharpsburg". Can't find the cite.
                Actually can only find Stonewall asking Lee where he should go after
                the fall of HF. Any thoughts? Thanks.

                Stephen Recker
              • Thomas Clemens
                Steve, 1st lt. James E. March mustered in with te regiment, mustered out 10/27/1864 on expiration of service, was recommissioned from civil life 12/1/1864.
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 2, 2007
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                  Steve,
                  1st lt. James E. March mustered in with te regiment, mustered out
                  10/27/1864 on expiration of service, was "recommissioned from civil
                  life" 12/1/1864. Offical Army Register, Vol. I, p. 200.

                  Tom Clemens


                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College


                  >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 06/01/07 1:48 PM >>>
                  Stephen,

                  What other information do you have about his unit?

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:41 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lt. March of the 32nd MA


                  > Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.
                  >
                  > Stephen Recker
                  >
                  >
                • Thomas Clemens
                  Steve, The only message recorded as sent by Jackson to Lee on the 15th was the announcement of the surrender of HF. In that message, OR, Vol. 19, pt. 1, p.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 2, 2007
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                    Steve,
                    The only message recorded as sent by Jackson to Lee on the 15th was the
                    announcement of the surrender of HF. In that message, OR, Vol. 19, pt.
                    1, p. 951, he asks Lee where to send his troops. If there is something
                    else I don't know of it, and neither does Joe Harsh, who discusses it in
                    Sounding the Shallows, Chap. 8, section L.


                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College


                    >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 06/01/07 6:34 PM >>>
                    I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson,
                    some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper's
                    Ferry that, "I will meet you in Sharpsburg". Can't find the cite.
                    Actually can only find Stonewall asking Lee where he should go after
                    the fall of HF. Any thoughts? Thanks.

                    Stephen Recker
                  • joseph_pierro
                    Having just joined the group, I realize I m coming into this discussion a tad late (so please forgive). For anyone interested in a broad study of the entire
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 23, 2007
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                      Having just joined the group, I realize I'm coming into this
                      discussion a tad late (so please forgive).

                      For anyone interested in a broad study of the entire campaign at the
                      operational level, I'd recommend Harsh as a good first start.

                      If the tactical mechanics of Antietam itself are more your concern,
                      I'd recommend either Murfin or Sears.

                      Mike Priest's books contain a good deal of "color" from soldiers in
                      the ranks; his "big picture" can be a bit difficult to follow if you
                      are not already well versed on the basics of the battle.

                      The Ezra Carman manuscript is incredibly detailed (imagine Sears or
                      Murfin, but on a regimental level-focus instead of brigade or
                      division). Wonderful for later study, but not a place I would
                      recommend someone to start their investigation. (It's similar in
                      that regard to Bigelow's "Campaign of Chancellorsville," if you are
                      familiar with that massive study.)

                      As for maps, Murfin's are quite good, and are baszed off of the
                      original Carman Atlas of Antietam. It's long out of print, but the
                      Library of Congress was recently scanned it in in its entirety as
                      part of its "American Memory" digital archive. I don;t have the link
                      to hand -- I'm writing this from the road-- but if you search Carman
                      and Antietam in American Memory, you'll get teh link for the Atlas.
                      Best of all, the map reading software--which you can download for
                      free--allows you to zoom as tight as you might want in crystal clear
                      resolution).


                      -- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Stephen,
                      >
                      > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                      >
                      > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                      > of Bayonets.
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >
                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                      >
                      >
                      > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                      > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                      > is
                      > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                      > Flood.
                      > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                      > mentioned,
                      > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                      >
                      > Stephen
                      >
                    • Thomas Clemens
                      A friend on another list pointed out that Isaac Wistar s memoirs mention going to Keedysville after he was wounded and being treated at a shopkeeper s house
                      Message 10 of 30 , Oct 6, 2007
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                        A friend on another list pointed out that Isaac Wistar's memoirs mention
                        going to Keedysville after he was wounded and being treated at a
                        shopkeeper's house where other 71st PA officers were also treated. The
                        shopkeeper, accordnig to Wistar, was killed by a stray shot. has anyone
                        ever heard this story before? It is not in O.T. Reilly's book, or other
                        accounts I have seen. Any data?


                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        Professor of History
                        Hagerstown Community College
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