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Re: [TalkAntietam] Question

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Richard, IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears great hindrance to Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set foot on the actual
    Message 1 of 30 , May 28 1:37 PM
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      Dear Richard,

      IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears' great hindrance to
      Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set
      foot on the actual terrain while writing the book. Murfin, on the
      other hand, was intimately familiar with all the terrain features
      of the field of battle...and it shows in his book.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <richard@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:50 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question


      >I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint.
      >
      > I recommend Sears. (sigh)
      >
      > Richard Croker
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: tangogee@...
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:02 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question
      >
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time,
      > JWD2044@... writes:
      >
      > What is the "best book" on this battle?
      >
      > A bit like asking how long is a piece of string ;-)
      >
      > I like Sears, Priest and murfin all about the same.
      >
      > Granville
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • richard@rcroker.com
      I was astounded when I wrote No Greater Courage...The very first time I ever went to Fredericksburg, Donald Pfanz (staff historian) told me he was already
      Message 2 of 30 , May 28 3:23 PM
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        I was astounded when I wrote No Greater Courage...The very first time I ever went to Fredericksburg, Donald Pfanz (staff historian) told me he was already impressed with my research. I had only just begun, so I asked why -- He said, "Because you're here. People write books about this fight and never bother to show up."

        It was a little tough for me, living in Atlanta (I should have picked different battles I guess), but six trips to Sharpsburg and four to Fredericksburg and I had at least a feel for the lay of the land.

        I used Murfin and Sears (and about a dozen others) but without Landscape Turned Red (and significant help from Ted and Walter), I would have been lost in terms of what happened when. Sears is a decent writer -- more than can be said for a great many minutiae hunters.

        Richard

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: G E Mayers
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 3:37 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question


        Dear Richard,

        IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears' great hindrance to
        Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set
        foot on the actual terrain while writing the book. Murfin, on the
        other hand, was intimately familiar with all the terrain features
        of the field of battle...and it shows in his book.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <richard@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:50 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question

        >I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint.
        >
        > I recommend Sears. (sigh)
        >
        > Richard Croker
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: tangogee@...
        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:02 PM
        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question
        >
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time,
        > JWD2044@... writes:
        >
        > What is the "best book" on this battle?
        >
        > A bit like asking how long is a piece of string ;-)
        >
        > I like Sears, Priest and murfin all about the same.
        >
        > Granville
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • James W. Durney
        No one has mentioned Priest s book on the battle. The first Antietam book I read was Sears book, somehow it left me with a very bad impression of the battle.
        Message 3 of 30 , May 29 8:07 AM
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          No one has mentioned Priest's book on the battle. The first Antietam
          book I read was Sears' book, somehow it left me with a very bad
          impression of the battle. Years later, I picked up the Preist book and
          found a different view, which lead me to Harsh's work. I know Priest
          has been savaged for his South Mt. battle book by some people.
          However, I would like to know why his Antietam book has been left off
          every list.

          James
        • G E Mayers
          James, Priest is good also, but a lot of what he writes or cites is just plain wrong.... There are many instances of his citations being wrong or incorrect. He
          Message 4 of 30 , May 29 8:12 AM
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            James,

            Priest is good also, but a lot of what he writes or cites is just
            plain wrong.... There are many instances of his citations being
            wrong or incorrect.

            He also can be very confusing to read..............

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:07 AM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


            No one has mentioned Priest's book on the battle. The first
            Antietam
            book I read was Sears' book, somehow it left me with a very bad
            impression of the battle. Years later, I picked up the Preist
            book and
            found a different view, which lead me to Harsh's work. I know
            Priest
            has been savaged for his South Mt. battle book by some people.
            However, I would like to know why his Antietam book has been left
            off
            every list.

            James
          • Phen62
            Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it is helpful to Read Confederate
            Message 5 of 30 , May 29 7:18 PM
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              Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
              Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it is
              helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the Flood.
              I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books mentioned,
              Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.

              Stephen
            • G E Mayers
              Dear Stephen, Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken. However, Sears maps are not as good as those in Murfin s Gleam of Bayonets. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
              Message 6 of 30 , May 29 7:59 PM
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                Dear Stephen,

                Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.

                However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                of Bayonets.

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                is
                helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                Flood.
                I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                mentioned,
                Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.

                Stephen
              • T. R. Livesey
                I agree with Gerry: Murfin s maps are better than Sears . Priest s maps are better than Sears . The Carman-Cope Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam , of
                Message 7 of 30 , May 30 9:40 AM
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                  I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'. Priest's
                  maps are better than Sears'.

                  The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of course, is
                  in a class of its own.

                  TRL

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Stephen,
                  >
                  > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                  >
                  > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                  > of Bayonets.
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                  >
                  >
                  > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                  > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                  > is
                  > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                  > Flood.
                  > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                  > mentioned,
                  > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                  >
                  > Stephen
                  >
                • G E Mayers
                  Dear Todd, IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book.... Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 30 9:42 AM
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                    Dear Todd,

                    IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                    I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                    Priest's
                    maps are better than Sears'.

                    The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                    course, is
                    in a class of its own.

                    TRL

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Stephen,
                    >
                    > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                    >
                    > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                    > of Bayonets.
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                    > from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                    >
                    >
                    > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through,
                    > and
                    > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                    > is
                    > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                    > Flood.
                    > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                    > mentioned,
                    > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                    >
                    > Stephen
                    >
                  • T. R. Livesey
                    Gerry, In Murfin s introduction, he states that the maps are the work of James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision of the Cope maps.
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 30 10:36 AM
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                      Gerry,

                      In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                      James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                      of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                      use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                      There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                      shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                      been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.

                      Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                      I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                      similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                      of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                      From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                      challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                      expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                      maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                      really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                      in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                      the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                      How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                      a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                      important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                      clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                      to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                      The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                      use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                      whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                      map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                      makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                      of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                      necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                      these others.

                      TRL

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Todd,
                      >
                      > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >
                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                      >
                      >
                      > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                      > Priest's
                      > maps are better than Sears'.
                      >
                      > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                      > course, is
                      > in a class of its own.
                      >
                      > TRL
                      >

                      >
                    • G E Mayers
                      Thanks Todd. BTW the Trailhead Graphics map of Antietam is simply superb... but unfortunately not possible to put in a book. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 30 10:44 AM
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                        Thanks Todd.

                        BTW the Trailhead Graphics map of Antietam is simply superb...
                        but unfortunately not possible to put in a book.

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 1:36 PM
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                        Gerry,

                        In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                        James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a
                        revision
                        of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps,
                        but
                        use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale
                        reproduction.
                        There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the
                        other
                        shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines
                        have
                        been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their
                        usefulness.

                        Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base,
                        which
                        I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that
                        are
                        similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the
                        history
                        of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                        From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                        challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                        expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up
                        with
                        maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                        really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For
                        example,
                        in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot
                        appreciate
                        the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get
                        `lost'?
                        How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I
                        think
                        a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is
                        more
                        important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                        clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically
                        pleasing
                        to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                        The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines
                        is to
                        use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                        whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History
                        Association
                        map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                        makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the
                        authors
                        of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                        necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any
                        of
                        these others.

                        TRL

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Todd,
                        >
                        > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                        >
                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                        > from
                        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                        >
                        >
                        > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                        > Priest's
                        > maps are better than Sears'.
                        >
                        > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                        > course, is
                        > in a class of its own.
                        >
                        > TRL
                        >

                        >
                      • Thomas Clemens
                        TR, I couldn t agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings. Great if you want to
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 30 11:34 AM
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                          TR,
                          I couldn't agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings. Great if you want to know crops types, fences, etc. but not good for understanding the battle. Preist used this map, but the whole thing never appears in the book so if you don't know the field to begin with, you'll be lost like a hiccup in a hurricane. Also he used some odd symbols for artillery, etc.
                          Tom Clemen

                          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          Professor of History
                          Hagerstown Community College

                          s
                          >>> "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...> 05/30/07 1:36 PM >>>

                          Gerry,

                          In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                          James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                          of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                          use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                          There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                          shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                          been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.

                          Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                          I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                          similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                          of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                          From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                          challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                          expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                          maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                          really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                          in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                          the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                          How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                          a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                          important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                          clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                          to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                          The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                          use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                          whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                          map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                          makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                          of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                          necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                          these others.

                          TRL

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Todd,
                          >
                          > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                          >
                          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          >
                          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                          >
                          >
                          > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                          > Priest's
                          > maps are better than Sears'.
                          >
                          > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                          > course, is
                          > in a class of its own.
                          >
                          > TRL
                          >

                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • James W. Durney
                          ... example, ... appreciate ... think ... more ... I think Anitetam cannot be understood w/o elevation markings. My first chance to walk the battlefield was a
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 30 5:11 PM
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                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                            > challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                            > expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                            > maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                            > really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For
                            example,
                            > in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot
                            appreciate
                            > the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                            > How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I
                            think
                            > a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is
                            more
                            > important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                            > clover, etc.).


                            I think Anitetam cannot be understood w/o elevation markings. My
                            first chance to walk the battlefield was a revelation that I will
                            never forget. Neither Sears, Priest or Harsh had told me how much
                            elevation impacts the battle.

                            James
                          • T. R. Livesey
                            Murfin s maps also suffer somewhat from the problem that there is no image of the whole battlefield, making orientation difficult. Since I owned a copy of the
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 30 6:26 PM
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                              Murfin's maps also suffer somewhat from the problem that there is no
                              image of the whole battlefield, making orientation difficult. Since I
                              owned a copy of the Parks and History Association map before I read
                              any of these books, I never really had a problem with orientation.

                              While it is certainly not the 'best' book (at least not for an overall
                              introduction to the battle), Luvaas & Nelson's "US Army War College
                              Guide to the Battle of Antietam" is worthy of mention, particularly
                              for actually visiting the battlefield and related sites at S Mountain
                              and Harper's Ferry. Definitely the best driving directions for getting
                              around S Mountain. Whenever I take visitor's to the battlefield, I
                              always take the route that they suggest: start at the Pry House, then
                              to the Keedysville road, over the little Antietam, past Pry's Mill,
                              over the upper bridge, down the Smoketown road into the east woods.
                              Not only does it take you past fields, roads and houses that look like
                              they haven't changed much since 1862, but it also gives a good sense
                              the kind of ground in the area. And, there will be no other tourists
                              entering the battlefield from that route. At first glance their maps
                              are somewhat primitive, but they do show contour lines, which in my
                              opinion makes them far more useful than the maps in the other three.
                              Cute symbols for corn and clover and stubble are cool but they just
                              don't work when the map is reduced to book page size. Also
                              indispensable if you are using the map while visiting the battlefield
                              is the inclusion of modern features (e.g. roads, structures and tour
                              stops) so that you can figure out where you are in relation to the
                              historical features. None of the big three's maps show modern
                              features, but the Luvaas & Nelson maps do. It's too bad that Luvaas &
                              Nelson only did little map segments at Antietam to illustrate the
                              portions of ground they study instead of producing a whole battlefield
                              map because I think they had the right idea given the limitations of
                              maps that appear in a book. Their map of the Harper's Ferry area is great.

                              TRL

                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > TR,
                              > I couldn't agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the
                              Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings.
                              Great if you want to know crops types, fences, etc. but not good for
                              understanding the battle. Preist used this map, but the whole thing
                              never appears in the book so if you don't know the field to begin
                              with, you'll be lost like a hiccup in a hurricane. Also he used some
                              odd symbols for artillery, etc.
                              > Tom Clemen
                              >
                              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              > Professor of History
                              > Hagerstown Community College
                              >
                              > s
                              > >>> "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...> 05/30/07 1:36 PM >>>
                              >
                              > Gerry,
                              >
                              > In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                              > James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                              > of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                              > use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                              > There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                              > shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                              > been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.
                              >
                              > Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                              > I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                              > similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                              > of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.
                              >
                              > From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                              > challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                              > expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                              > maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                              > really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                              > in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                              > the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                              > How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                              > a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                              > important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                              > clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                              > to look at and readers are drawn to them.
                              >
                              > The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                              > use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                              > whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                              > map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                              > makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                              > of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                              > necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                              > these others.
                              >
                              > TRL
                              >
                            • Stephen Recker
                              Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks. Stephen Recker
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.

                                Stephen Recker
                              • G E Mayers
                                Stephen, What other information do you have about his unit? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                  Stephen,

                                  What other information do you have about his unit?

                                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:41 PM
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lt. March of the 32nd MA


                                  > Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.
                                  >
                                  > Stephen Recker
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Stephen Recker
                                  I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson, some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper s Ferry that, I
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                    I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson,
                                    some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper's
                                    Ferry that, "I will meet you in Sharpsburg". Can't find the cite.
                                    Actually can only find Stonewall asking Lee where he should go after
                                    the fall of HF. Any thoughts? Thanks.

                                    Stephen Recker
                                  • Thomas Clemens
                                    Steve, 1st lt. James E. March mustered in with te regiment, mustered out 10/27/1864 on expiration of service, was recommissioned from civil life 12/1/1864.
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jun 2, 2007
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                                      Steve,
                                      1st lt. James E. March mustered in with te regiment, mustered out
                                      10/27/1864 on expiration of service, was "recommissioned from civil
                                      life" 12/1/1864. Offical Army Register, Vol. I, p. 200.

                                      Tom Clemens


                                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                      Professor of History
                                      Hagerstown Community College


                                      >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 06/01/07 1:48 PM >>>
                                      Stephen,

                                      What other information do you have about his unit?

                                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:41 PM
                                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lt. March of the 32nd MA


                                      > Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.
                                      >
                                      > Stephen Recker
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Thomas Clemens
                                      Steve, The only message recorded as sent by Jackson to Lee on the 15th was the announcement of the surrender of HF. In that message, OR, Vol. 19, pt. 1, p.
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jun 2, 2007
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                                        Steve,
                                        The only message recorded as sent by Jackson to Lee on the 15th was the
                                        announcement of the surrender of HF. In that message, OR, Vol. 19, pt.
                                        1, p. 951, he asks Lee where to send his troops. If there is something
                                        else I don't know of it, and neither does Joe Harsh, who discusses it in
                                        Sounding the Shallows, Chap. 8, section L.


                                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                        Professor of History
                                        Hagerstown Community College


                                        >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 06/01/07 6:34 PM >>>
                                        I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson,
                                        some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper's
                                        Ferry that, "I will meet you in Sharpsburg". Can't find the cite.
                                        Actually can only find Stonewall asking Lee where he should go after
                                        the fall of HF. Any thoughts? Thanks.

                                        Stephen Recker
                                      • joseph_pierro
                                        Having just joined the group, I realize I m coming into this discussion a tad late (so please forgive). For anyone interested in a broad study of the entire
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jun 23, 2007
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                                          Having just joined the group, I realize I'm coming into this
                                          discussion a tad late (so please forgive).

                                          For anyone interested in a broad study of the entire campaign at the
                                          operational level, I'd recommend Harsh as a good first start.

                                          If the tactical mechanics of Antietam itself are more your concern,
                                          I'd recommend either Murfin or Sears.

                                          Mike Priest's books contain a good deal of "color" from soldiers in
                                          the ranks; his "big picture" can be a bit difficult to follow if you
                                          are not already well versed on the basics of the battle.

                                          The Ezra Carman manuscript is incredibly detailed (imagine Sears or
                                          Murfin, but on a regimental level-focus instead of brigade or
                                          division). Wonderful for later study, but not a place I would
                                          recommend someone to start their investigation. (It's similar in
                                          that regard to Bigelow's "Campaign of Chancellorsville," if you are
                                          familiar with that massive study.)

                                          As for maps, Murfin's are quite good, and are baszed off of the
                                          original Carman Atlas of Antietam. It's long out of print, but the
                                          Library of Congress was recently scanned it in in its entirety as
                                          part of its "American Memory" digital archive. I don;t have the link
                                          to hand -- I'm writing this from the road-- but if you search Carman
                                          and Antietam in American Memory, you'll get teh link for the Atlas.
                                          Best of all, the map reading software--which you can download for
                                          free--allows you to zoom as tight as you might want in crystal clear
                                          resolution).


                                          -- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear Stephen,
                                          >
                                          > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                                          >
                                          > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                                          > of Bayonets.
                                          >
                                          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                          >
                                          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                                          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                                          > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                                          > is
                                          > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                                          > Flood.
                                          > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                                          > mentioned,
                                          > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                                          >
                                          > Stephen
                                          >
                                        • Thomas Clemens
                                          A friend on another list pointed out that Isaac Wistar s memoirs mention going to Keedysville after he was wounded and being treated at a shopkeeper s house
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Oct 6, 2007
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                                            A friend on another list pointed out that Isaac Wistar's memoirs mention
                                            going to Keedysville after he was wounded and being treated at a
                                            shopkeeper's house where other 71st PA officers were also treated. The
                                            shopkeeper, accordnig to Wistar, was killed by a stray shot. has anyone
                                            ever heard this story before? It is not in O.T. Reilly's book, or other
                                            accounts I have seen. Any data?


                                            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                            Professor of History
                                            Hagerstown Community College
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