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Landscape Turned Wrong? was: Question

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  • Stephen Recker
    As far a as a general who-shot-who , I would recommend Sears Landscape Turned Red for a first-timer. James Murphin s Gleam of Bayonets pre-dates Sears
    Message 1 of 30 , May 27, 2007
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      As far a as a general 'who-shot-who', I would recommend Sears'
      "Landscape Turned Red" for a first-timer. James Murphin's "Gleam of
      Bayonets" pre-dates Sears and is thought by some to be more
      historically accurate, but Sears is a better read IMHO. Sears also
      covers more of the battle than Murfin. But certainly read Murfin next.

      That said, I've been thinking about raising this question for a while.
      Some have said that they feel Sears gets some things wrong in his book.
      Would anyone care to share where they think he went wrong? Thanks.

      Stephen








      On Sunday, May 27, 2007, at 03:38 PM, James W. Durney wrote:

      > What is the "best book" on this battle?
      >
    • Tom Shay
      I m sure Stephen Recker and other Antietam guides are routinely asked that question. Indeed, during last weekend s visit to Antietam, many members of the
      Message 2 of 30 , May 27, 2007
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        I'm sure Stephen Recker and other Antietam guides are routinely asked that question. Indeed, during last weekend's visit to Antietam, many members of the Gettysburg CWRT asked for book suggestions.

        For a detailed explanation of the Maryland Campaign, South Mtn and Antietam, Sears' LANDSCAPE TURNED RED is a good choice.

        The best and most thought-provoking history of the Maryland Campaignn is Joe Harsh's TAKEN AT THE FLOOD, albeit from Lee's prespective.

        James Murfin's "Gleam of Bayonets" runs a decent second place to both above books.

        The forthcoming publication of Ezra Carman's battle history will provide a long-needed detailed tactical study of the battle itself.

        Tom Shay


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: James W. Durney
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:38 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Question


        What is the "best book" on this battle?





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G E Mayers
        It depends on what you are looking for. Strategically the :best: book I have read is Joe Harsh s Taken at the Flood. Tactically, the best is Jim Murfin s Gleam
        Message 3 of 30 , May 28, 2007
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          It depends on what you are looking for. Strategically the :best:
          book I have read is Joe Harsh's Taken at the Flood. Tactically,
          the best is Jim Murfin's Gleam of Bayonets.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:38 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Question


          What is the "best book" on this battle?
        • G E Mayers
          Dear Richard, IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears great hindrance to Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set foot on the actual
          Message 4 of 30 , May 28, 2007
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            Dear Richard,

            IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears' great hindrance to
            Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set
            foot on the actual terrain while writing the book. Murfin, on the
            other hand, was intimately familiar with all the terrain features
            of the field of battle...and it shows in his book.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <richard@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:50 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question


            >I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint.
            >
            > I recommend Sears. (sigh)
            >
            > Richard Croker
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: tangogee@...
            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:02 PM
            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question
            >
            >
            >
            > In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time,
            > JWD2044@... writes:
            >
            > What is the "best book" on this battle?
            >
            > A bit like asking how long is a piece of string ;-)
            >
            > I like Sears, Priest and murfin all about the same.
            >
            > Granville
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • richard@rcroker.com
            I was astounded when I wrote No Greater Courage...The very first time I ever went to Fredericksburg, Donald Pfanz (staff historian) told me he was already
            Message 5 of 30 , May 28, 2007
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              I was astounded when I wrote No Greater Courage...The very first time I ever went to Fredericksburg, Donald Pfanz (staff historian) told me he was already impressed with my research. I had only just begun, so I asked why -- He said, "Because you're here. People write books about this fight and never bother to show up."

              It was a little tough for me, living in Atlanta (I should have picked different battles I guess), but six trips to Sharpsburg and four to Fredericksburg and I had at least a feel for the lay of the land.

              I used Murfin and Sears (and about a dozen others) but without Landscape Turned Red (and significant help from Ted and Walter), I would have been lost in terms of what happened when. Sears is a decent writer -- more than can be said for a great many minutiae hunters.

              Richard

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: G E Mayers
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 3:37 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question


              Dear Richard,

              IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears' great hindrance to
              Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set
              foot on the actual terrain while writing the book. Murfin, on the
              other hand, was intimately familiar with all the terrain features
              of the field of battle...and it shows in his book.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <richard@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:50 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question

              >I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint.
              >
              > I recommend Sears. (sigh)
              >
              > Richard Croker
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: tangogee@...
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:02 PM
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question
              >
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time,
              > JWD2044@... writes:
              >
              > What is the "best book" on this battle?
              >
              > A bit like asking how long is a piece of string ;-)
              >
              > I like Sears, Priest and murfin all about the same.
              >
              > Granville
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James W. Durney
              No one has mentioned Priest s book on the battle. The first Antietam book I read was Sears book, somehow it left me with a very bad impression of the battle.
              Message 6 of 30 , May 29, 2007
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                No one has mentioned Priest's book on the battle. The first Antietam
                book I read was Sears' book, somehow it left me with a very bad
                impression of the battle. Years later, I picked up the Preist book and
                found a different view, which lead me to Harsh's work. I know Priest
                has been savaged for his South Mt. battle book by some people.
                However, I would like to know why his Antietam book has been left off
                every list.

                James
              • G E Mayers
                James, Priest is good also, but a lot of what he writes or cites is just plain wrong.... There are many instances of his citations being wrong or incorrect. He
                Message 7 of 30 , May 29, 2007
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                  James,

                  Priest is good also, but a lot of what he writes or cites is just
                  plain wrong.... There are many instances of his citations being
                  wrong or incorrect.

                  He also can be very confusing to read..............

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:07 AM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                  No one has mentioned Priest's book on the battle. The first
                  Antietam
                  book I read was Sears' book, somehow it left me with a very bad
                  impression of the battle. Years later, I picked up the Preist
                  book and
                  found a different view, which lead me to Harsh's work. I know
                  Priest
                  has been savaged for his South Mt. battle book by some people.
                  However, I would like to know why his Antietam book has been left
                  off
                  every list.

                  James
                • Phen62
                  Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it is helpful to Read Confederate
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 29, 2007
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                    Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                    Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it is
                    helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the Flood.
                    I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books mentioned,
                    Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.

                    Stephen
                  • G E Mayers
                    Dear Stephen, Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken. However, Sears maps are not as good as those in Murfin s Gleam of Bayonets. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 29, 2007
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                      Dear Stephen,

                      Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.

                      However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                      of Bayonets.

                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                      Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                      Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                      is
                      helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                      Flood.
                      I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                      mentioned,
                      Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.

                      Stephen
                    • T. R. Livesey
                      I agree with Gerry: Murfin s maps are better than Sears . Priest s maps are better than Sears . The Carman-Cope Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam , of
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                        I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'. Priest's
                        maps are better than Sears'.

                        The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of course, is
                        in a class of its own.

                        TRL

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Stephen,
                        >
                        > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                        >
                        > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                        > of Bayonets.
                        >
                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                        >
                        >
                        > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                        > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                        > is
                        > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                        > Flood.
                        > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                        > mentioned,
                        > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                        >
                        > Stephen
                        >
                      • G E Mayers
                        Dear Todd, IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book.... Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                          Dear Todd,

                          IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                          I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                          Priest's
                          maps are better than Sears'.

                          The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                          course, is
                          in a class of its own.

                          TRL

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Stephen,
                          >
                          > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                          >
                          > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                          > of Bayonets.
                          >
                          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          >
                          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                          > from
                          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                          >
                          >
                          > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through,
                          > and
                          > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                          > is
                          > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                          > Flood.
                          > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                          > mentioned,
                          > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                          >
                          > Stephen
                          >
                        • T. R. Livesey
                          Gerry, In Murfin s introduction, he states that the maps are the work of James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision of the Cope maps.
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                            Gerry,

                            In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                            James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                            of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                            use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                            There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                            shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                            been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.

                            Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                            I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                            similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                            of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                            From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                            challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                            expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                            maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                            really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                            in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                            the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                            How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                            a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                            important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                            clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                            to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                            The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                            use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                            whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                            map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                            makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                            of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                            necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                            these others.

                            TRL

                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Todd,
                            >
                            > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                            >
                            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            >
                            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                            >
                            >
                            > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                            > Priest's
                            > maps are better than Sears'.
                            >
                            > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                            > course, is
                            > in a class of its own.
                            >
                            > TRL
                            >

                            >
                          • G E Mayers
                            Thanks Todd. BTW the Trailhead Graphics map of Antietam is simply superb... but unfortunately not possible to put in a book. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                              Thanks Todd.

                              BTW the Trailhead Graphics map of Antietam is simply superb...
                              but unfortunately not possible to put in a book.

                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 1:36 PM
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                              Gerry,

                              In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                              James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a
                              revision
                              of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps,
                              but
                              use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale
                              reproduction.
                              There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the
                              other
                              shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines
                              have
                              been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their
                              usefulness.

                              Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base,
                              which
                              I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that
                              are
                              similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the
                              history
                              of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                              From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                              challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                              expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up
                              with
                              maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                              really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For
                              example,
                              in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot
                              appreciate
                              the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get
                              `lost'?
                              How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I
                              think
                              a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is
                              more
                              important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                              clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically
                              pleasing
                              to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                              The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines
                              is to
                              use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                              whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History
                              Association
                              map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                              makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the
                              authors
                              of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                              necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any
                              of
                              these others.

                              TRL

                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Todd,
                              >
                              > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                              >
                              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                              >
                              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                              > from
                              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                              >
                              >
                              > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                              > Priest's
                              > maps are better than Sears'.
                              >
                              > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                              > course, is
                              > in a class of its own.
                              >
                              > TRL
                              >

                              >
                            • Thomas Clemens
                              TR, I couldn t agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings. Great if you want to
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                                TR,
                                I couldn't agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings. Great if you want to know crops types, fences, etc. but not good for understanding the battle. Preist used this map, but the whole thing never appears in the book so if you don't know the field to begin with, you'll be lost like a hiccup in a hurricane. Also he used some odd symbols for artillery, etc.
                                Tom Clemen

                                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                Professor of History
                                Hagerstown Community College

                                s
                                >>> "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...> 05/30/07 1:36 PM >>>

                                Gerry,

                                In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                                James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                                of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                                use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                                There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                                shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                                been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.

                                Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                                I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                                similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                                of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                                From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                                maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                                in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                                the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                                How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                                a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                                important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                                to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                                The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                                use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                                whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                                map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                                makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                                of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                                necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                                these others.

                                TRL

                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Todd,
                                >
                                > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                                >
                                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                >
                                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                >
                                >
                                > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                                > Priest's
                                > maps are better than Sears'.
                                >
                                > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                                > course, is
                                > in a class of its own.
                                >
                                > TRL
                                >

                                >





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • James W. Durney
                                ... example, ... appreciate ... think ... more ... I think Anitetam cannot be understood w/o elevation markings. My first chance to walk the battlefield was a
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                  > challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                  > expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                                  > maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                  > really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For
                                  example,
                                  > in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot
                                  appreciate
                                  > the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                                  > How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I
                                  think
                                  > a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is
                                  more
                                  > important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                  > clover, etc.).


                                  I think Anitetam cannot be understood w/o elevation markings. My
                                  first chance to walk the battlefield was a revelation that I will
                                  never forget. Neither Sears, Priest or Harsh had told me how much
                                  elevation impacts the battle.

                                  James
                                • T. R. Livesey
                                  Murfin s maps also suffer somewhat from the problem that there is no image of the whole battlefield, making orientation difficult. Since I owned a copy of the
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                                    Murfin's maps also suffer somewhat from the problem that there is no
                                    image of the whole battlefield, making orientation difficult. Since I
                                    owned a copy of the Parks and History Association map before I read
                                    any of these books, I never really had a problem with orientation.

                                    While it is certainly not the 'best' book (at least not for an overall
                                    introduction to the battle), Luvaas & Nelson's "US Army War College
                                    Guide to the Battle of Antietam" is worthy of mention, particularly
                                    for actually visiting the battlefield and related sites at S Mountain
                                    and Harper's Ferry. Definitely the best driving directions for getting
                                    around S Mountain. Whenever I take visitor's to the battlefield, I
                                    always take the route that they suggest: start at the Pry House, then
                                    to the Keedysville road, over the little Antietam, past Pry's Mill,
                                    over the upper bridge, down the Smoketown road into the east woods.
                                    Not only does it take you past fields, roads and houses that look like
                                    they haven't changed much since 1862, but it also gives a good sense
                                    the kind of ground in the area. And, there will be no other tourists
                                    entering the battlefield from that route. At first glance their maps
                                    are somewhat primitive, but they do show contour lines, which in my
                                    opinion makes them far more useful than the maps in the other three.
                                    Cute symbols for corn and clover and stubble are cool but they just
                                    don't work when the map is reduced to book page size. Also
                                    indispensable if you are using the map while visiting the battlefield
                                    is the inclusion of modern features (e.g. roads, structures and tour
                                    stops) so that you can figure out where you are in relation to the
                                    historical features. None of the big three's maps show modern
                                    features, but the Luvaas & Nelson maps do. It's too bad that Luvaas &
                                    Nelson only did little map segments at Antietam to illustrate the
                                    portions of ground they study instead of producing a whole battlefield
                                    map because I think they had the right idea given the limitations of
                                    maps that appear in a book. Their map of the Harper's Ferry area is great.

                                    TRL

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > TR,
                                    > I couldn't agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the
                                    Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings.
                                    Great if you want to know crops types, fences, etc. but not good for
                                    understanding the battle. Preist used this map, but the whole thing
                                    never appears in the book so if you don't know the field to begin
                                    with, you'll be lost like a hiccup in a hurricane. Also he used some
                                    odd symbols for artillery, etc.
                                    > Tom Clemen
                                    >
                                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    > Professor of History
                                    > Hagerstown Community College
                                    >
                                    > s
                                    > >>> "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...> 05/30/07 1:36 PM >>>
                                    >
                                    > Gerry,
                                    >
                                    > In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                                    > James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                                    > of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                                    > use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                                    > There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                                    > shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                                    > been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.
                                    >
                                    > Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                                    > I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                                    > similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                                    > of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.
                                    >
                                    > From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                    > challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                    > expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                                    > maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                    > really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                                    > in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                                    > the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                                    > How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                                    > a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                                    > important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                    > clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                                    > to look at and readers are drawn to them.
                                    >
                                    > The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                                    > use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                                    > whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                                    > map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                                    > makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                                    > of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                                    > necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                                    > these others.
                                    >
                                    > TRL
                                    >
                                  • Stephen Recker
                                    Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks. Stephen Recker
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                      Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.

                                      Stephen Recker
                                    • G E Mayers
                                      Stephen, What other information do you have about his unit? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                        Stephen,

                                        What other information do you have about his unit?

                                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:41 PM
                                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lt. March of the 32nd MA


                                        > Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.
                                        >
                                        > Stephen Recker
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Stephen Recker
                                        I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson, some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper s Ferry that, I
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                          I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson,
                                          some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper's
                                          Ferry that, "I will meet you in Sharpsburg". Can't find the cite.
                                          Actually can only find Stonewall asking Lee where he should go after
                                          the fall of HF. Any thoughts? Thanks.

                                          Stephen Recker
                                        • Thomas Clemens
                                          Steve, 1st lt. James E. March mustered in with te regiment, mustered out 10/27/1864 on expiration of service, was recommissioned from civil life 12/1/1864.
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jun 2, 2007
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                                            Steve,
                                            1st lt. James E. March mustered in with te regiment, mustered out
                                            10/27/1864 on expiration of service, was "recommissioned from civil
                                            life" 12/1/1864. Offical Army Register, Vol. I, p. 200.

                                            Tom Clemens


                                            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                            Professor of History
                                            Hagerstown Community College


                                            >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 06/01/07 1:48 PM >>>
                                            Stephen,

                                            What other information do you have about his unit?

                                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:41 PM
                                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lt. March of the 32nd MA


                                            > Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.
                                            >
                                            > Stephen Recker
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Thomas Clemens
                                            Steve, The only message recorded as sent by Jackson to Lee on the 15th was the announcement of the surrender of HF. In that message, OR, Vol. 19, pt. 1, p.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jun 2, 2007
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                                              Steve,
                                              The only message recorded as sent by Jackson to Lee on the 15th was the
                                              announcement of the surrender of HF. In that message, OR, Vol. 19, pt.
                                              1, p. 951, he asks Lee where to send his troops. If there is something
                                              else I don't know of it, and neither does Joe Harsh, who discusses it in
                                              Sounding the Shallows, Chap. 8, section L.


                                              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                              Professor of History
                                              Hagerstown Community College


                                              >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 06/01/07 6:34 PM >>>
                                              I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson,
                                              some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper's
                                              Ferry that, "I will meet you in Sharpsburg". Can't find the cite.
                                              Actually can only find Stonewall asking Lee where he should go after
                                              the fall of HF. Any thoughts? Thanks.

                                              Stephen Recker
                                            • joseph_pierro
                                              Having just joined the group, I realize I m coming into this discussion a tad late (so please forgive). For anyone interested in a broad study of the entire
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jun 23, 2007
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                                                Having just joined the group, I realize I'm coming into this
                                                discussion a tad late (so please forgive).

                                                For anyone interested in a broad study of the entire campaign at the
                                                operational level, I'd recommend Harsh as a good first start.

                                                If the tactical mechanics of Antietam itself are more your concern,
                                                I'd recommend either Murfin or Sears.

                                                Mike Priest's books contain a good deal of "color" from soldiers in
                                                the ranks; his "big picture" can be a bit difficult to follow if you
                                                are not already well versed on the basics of the battle.

                                                The Ezra Carman manuscript is incredibly detailed (imagine Sears or
                                                Murfin, but on a regimental level-focus instead of brigade or
                                                division). Wonderful for later study, but not a place I would
                                                recommend someone to start their investigation. (It's similar in
                                                that regard to Bigelow's "Campaign of Chancellorsville," if you are
                                                familiar with that massive study.)

                                                As for maps, Murfin's are quite good, and are baszed off of the
                                                original Carman Atlas of Antietam. It's long out of print, but the
                                                Library of Congress was recently scanned it in in its entirety as
                                                part of its "American Memory" digital archive. I don;t have the link
                                                to hand -- I'm writing this from the road-- but if you search Carman
                                                and Antietam in American Memory, you'll get teh link for the Atlas.
                                                Best of all, the map reading software--which you can download for
                                                free--allows you to zoom as tight as you might want in crystal clear
                                                resolution).


                                                -- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Dear Stephen,
                                                >
                                                > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                                                >
                                                > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                                                > of Bayonets.
                                                >
                                                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                                >
                                                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                                                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                                                > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                                                > is
                                                > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                                                > Flood.
                                                > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                                                > mentioned,
                                                > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                                                >
                                                > Stephen
                                                >
                                              • Thomas Clemens
                                                A friend on another list pointed out that Isaac Wistar s memoirs mention going to Keedysville after he was wounded and being treated at a shopkeeper s house
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Oct 6, 2007
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                                                  A friend on another list pointed out that Isaac Wistar's memoirs mention
                                                  going to Keedysville after he was wounded and being treated at a
                                                  shopkeeper's house where other 71st PA officers were also treated. The
                                                  shopkeeper, accordnig to Wistar, was killed by a stray shot. has anyone
                                                  ever heard this story before? It is not in O.T. Reilly's book, or other
                                                  accounts I have seen. Any data?


                                                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                  Professor of History
                                                  Hagerstown Community College
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