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Re: [TalkAntietam] Question

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  • jdpolaski@aol.com
    There is another book called Antietam, by William A. Frassanito which is a pretty good book also. ************************************** See what s free at
    Message 1 of 30 , May 27, 2007
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      There is another book called Antietam, by William A. Frassanito which is a
      pretty good book also.



      ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • richard@rcroker.com
      I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint. I recommend Sears. (sigh) Richard Croker ... From: tangogee@aol.com To:
      Message 2 of 30 , May 27, 2007
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        I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint.

        I recommend Sears. (sigh)

        Richard Croker

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: tangogee@...
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question



        In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time,
        JWD2044@... writes:

        What is the "best book" on this battle?

        A bit like asking how long is a piece of string ;-)

        I like Sears, Priest and murfin all about the same.

        Granville

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Stephen Recker
        As far a as a general who-shot-who , I would recommend Sears Landscape Turned Red for a first-timer. James Murphin s Gleam of Bayonets pre-dates Sears
        Message 3 of 30 , May 27, 2007
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          As far a as a general 'who-shot-who', I would recommend Sears'
          "Landscape Turned Red" for a first-timer. James Murphin's "Gleam of
          Bayonets" pre-dates Sears and is thought by some to be more
          historically accurate, but Sears is a better read IMHO. Sears also
          covers more of the battle than Murfin. But certainly read Murfin next.

          That said, I've been thinking about raising this question for a while.
          Some have said that they feel Sears gets some things wrong in his book.
          Would anyone care to share where they think he went wrong? Thanks.

          Stephen








          On Sunday, May 27, 2007, at 03:38 PM, James W. Durney wrote:

          > What is the "best book" on this battle?
          >
        • Tom Shay
          I m sure Stephen Recker and other Antietam guides are routinely asked that question. Indeed, during last weekend s visit to Antietam, many members of the
          Message 4 of 30 , May 27, 2007
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            I'm sure Stephen Recker and other Antietam guides are routinely asked that question. Indeed, during last weekend's visit to Antietam, many members of the Gettysburg CWRT asked for book suggestions.

            For a detailed explanation of the Maryland Campaign, South Mtn and Antietam, Sears' LANDSCAPE TURNED RED is a good choice.

            The best and most thought-provoking history of the Maryland Campaignn is Joe Harsh's TAKEN AT THE FLOOD, albeit from Lee's prespective.

            James Murfin's "Gleam of Bayonets" runs a decent second place to both above books.

            The forthcoming publication of Ezra Carman's battle history will provide a long-needed detailed tactical study of the battle itself.

            Tom Shay


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: James W. Durney
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:38 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Question


            What is the "best book" on this battle?





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • G E Mayers
            It depends on what you are looking for. Strategically the :best: book I have read is Joe Harsh s Taken at the Flood. Tactically, the best is Jim Murfin s Gleam
            Message 5 of 30 , May 28, 2007
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              It depends on what you are looking for. Strategically the :best:
              book I have read is Joe Harsh's Taken at the Flood. Tactically,
              the best is Jim Murfin's Gleam of Bayonets.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:38 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Question


              What is the "best book" on this battle?
            • G E Mayers
              Dear Richard, IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears great hindrance to Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set foot on the actual
              Message 6 of 30 , May 28, 2007
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                Dear Richard,

                IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears' great hindrance to
                Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set
                foot on the actual terrain while writing the book. Murfin, on the
                other hand, was intimately familiar with all the terrain features
                of the field of battle...and it shows in his book.

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <richard@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:50 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question


                >I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint.
                >
                > I recommend Sears. (sigh)
                >
                > Richard Croker
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: tangogee@...
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:02 PM
                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question
                >
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time,
                > JWD2044@... writes:
                >
                > What is the "best book" on this battle?
                >
                > A bit like asking how long is a piece of string ;-)
                >
                > I like Sears, Priest and murfin all about the same.
                >
                > Granville
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
              • richard@rcroker.com
                I was astounded when I wrote No Greater Courage...The very first time I ever went to Fredericksburg, Donald Pfanz (staff historian) told me he was already
                Message 7 of 30 , May 28, 2007
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                  I was astounded when I wrote No Greater Courage...The very first time I ever went to Fredericksburg, Donald Pfanz (staff historian) told me he was already impressed with my research. I had only just begun, so I asked why -- He said, "Because you're here. People write books about this fight and never bother to show up."

                  It was a little tough for me, living in Atlanta (I should have picked different battles I guess), but six trips to Sharpsburg and four to Fredericksburg and I had at least a feel for the lay of the land.

                  I used Murfin and Sears (and about a dozen others) but without Landscape Turned Red (and significant help from Ted and Walter), I would have been lost in terms of what happened when. Sears is a decent writer -- more than can be said for a great many minutiae hunters.

                  Richard

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: G E Mayers
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 3:37 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question


                  Dear Richard,

                  IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears' great hindrance to
                  Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set
                  foot on the actual terrain while writing the book. Murfin, on the
                  other hand, was intimately familiar with all the terrain features
                  of the field of battle...and it shows in his book.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: <richard@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:50 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question

                  >I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint.
                  >
                  > I recommend Sears. (sigh)
                  >
                  > Richard Croker
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: tangogee@...
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:02 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time,
                  > JWD2044@... writes:
                  >
                  > What is the "best book" on this battle?
                  >
                  > A bit like asking how long is a piece of string ;-)
                  >
                  > I like Sears, Priest and murfin all about the same.
                  >
                  > Granville
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James W. Durney
                  No one has mentioned Priest s book on the battle. The first Antietam book I read was Sears book, somehow it left me with a very bad impression of the battle.
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 29, 2007
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                    No one has mentioned Priest's book on the battle. The first Antietam
                    book I read was Sears' book, somehow it left me with a very bad
                    impression of the battle. Years later, I picked up the Preist book and
                    found a different view, which lead me to Harsh's work. I know Priest
                    has been savaged for his South Mt. battle book by some people.
                    However, I would like to know why his Antietam book has been left off
                    every list.

                    James
                  • G E Mayers
                    James, Priest is good also, but a lot of what he writes or cites is just plain wrong.... There are many instances of his citations being wrong or incorrect. He
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 29, 2007
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                      James,

                      Priest is good also, but a lot of what he writes or cites is just
                      plain wrong.... There are many instances of his citations being
                      wrong or incorrect.

                      He also can be very confusing to read..............

                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:07 AM
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                      No one has mentioned Priest's book on the battle. The first
                      Antietam
                      book I read was Sears' book, somehow it left me with a very bad
                      impression of the battle. Years later, I picked up the Preist
                      book and
                      found a different view, which lead me to Harsh's work. I know
                      Priest
                      has been savaged for his South Mt. battle book by some people.
                      However, I would like to know why his Antietam book has been left
                      off
                      every list.

                      James
                    • Phen62
                      Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it is helpful to Read Confederate
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 29, 2007
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                        Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                        Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it is
                        helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the Flood.
                        I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books mentioned,
                        Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.

                        Stephen
                      • G E Mayers
                        Dear Stephen, Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken. However, Sears maps are not as good as those in Murfin s Gleam of Bayonets. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 29, 2007
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                          Dear Stephen,

                          Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.

                          However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                          of Bayonets.

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                          Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                          Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                          is
                          helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                          Flood.
                          I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                          mentioned,
                          Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.

                          Stephen
                        • T. R. Livesey
                          I agree with Gerry: Murfin s maps are better than Sears . Priest s maps are better than Sears . The Carman-Cope Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam , of
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                            I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'. Priest's
                            maps are better than Sears'.

                            The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of course, is
                            in a class of its own.

                            TRL

                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Stephen,
                            >
                            > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                            >
                            > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                            > of Bayonets.
                            >
                            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            >
                            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                            >
                            >
                            > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                            > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                            > is
                            > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                            > Flood.
                            > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                            > mentioned,
                            > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                            >
                            > Stephen
                            >
                          • G E Mayers
                            Dear Todd, IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book.... Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                              Dear Todd,

                              IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....

                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                              I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                              Priest's
                              maps are better than Sears'.

                              The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                              course, is
                              in a class of its own.

                              TRL

                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Stephen,
                              >
                              > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                              >
                              > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                              > of Bayonets.
                              >
                              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                              >
                              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                              > from
                              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                              >
                              >
                              > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through,
                              > and
                              > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                              > is
                              > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                              > Flood.
                              > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                              > mentioned,
                              > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                              >
                              > Stephen
                              >
                            • T. R. Livesey
                              Gerry, In Murfin s introduction, he states that the maps are the work of James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision of the Cope maps.
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                                Gerry,

                                In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                                James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                                of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                                use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                                There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                                shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                                been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.

                                Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                                I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                                similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                                of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                                From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                                maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                                in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                                the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                                How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                                a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                                important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                                to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                                The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                                use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                                whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                                map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                                makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                                of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                                necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                                these others.

                                TRL

                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Todd,
                                >
                                > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                                >
                                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                >
                                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                >
                                >
                                > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                                > Priest's
                                > maps are better than Sears'.
                                >
                                > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                                > course, is
                                > in a class of its own.
                                >
                                > TRL
                                >

                                >
                              • G E Mayers
                                Thanks Todd. BTW the Trailhead Graphics map of Antietam is simply superb... but unfortunately not possible to put in a book. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                                  Thanks Todd.

                                  BTW the Trailhead Graphics map of Antietam is simply superb...
                                  but unfortunately not possible to put in a book.

                                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 1:36 PM
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                                  Gerry,

                                  In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                                  James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a
                                  revision
                                  of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps,
                                  but
                                  use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale
                                  reproduction.
                                  There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the
                                  other
                                  shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines
                                  have
                                  been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their
                                  usefulness.

                                  Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base,
                                  which
                                  I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that
                                  are
                                  similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the
                                  history
                                  of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                                  From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                  challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                  expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up
                                  with
                                  maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                  really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For
                                  example,
                                  in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot
                                  appreciate
                                  the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get
                                  `lost'?
                                  How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I
                                  think
                                  a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is
                                  more
                                  important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                  clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically
                                  pleasing
                                  to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                                  The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines
                                  is to
                                  use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                                  whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History
                                  Association
                                  map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                                  makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the
                                  authors
                                  of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                                  necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any
                                  of
                                  these others.

                                  TRL

                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Todd,
                                  >
                                  > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                                  >
                                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                  >
                                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                  > from
                                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                                  > Priest's
                                  > maps are better than Sears'.
                                  >
                                  > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                                  > course, is
                                  > in a class of its own.
                                  >
                                  > TRL
                                  >

                                  >
                                • Thomas Clemens
                                  TR, I couldn t agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings. Great if you want to
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                                    TR,
                                    I couldn't agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings. Great if you want to know crops types, fences, etc. but not good for understanding the battle. Preist used this map, but the whole thing never appears in the book so if you don't know the field to begin with, you'll be lost like a hiccup in a hurricane. Also he used some odd symbols for artillery, etc.
                                    Tom Clemen

                                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    Professor of History
                                    Hagerstown Community College

                                    s
                                    >>> "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...> 05/30/07 1:36 PM >>>

                                    Gerry,

                                    In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                                    James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                                    of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                                    use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                                    There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                                    shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                                    been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.

                                    Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                                    I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                                    similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                                    of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                                    From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                    challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                    expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                                    maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                    really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                                    in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                                    the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                                    How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                                    a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                                    important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                    clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                                    to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                                    The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                                    use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                                    whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                                    map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                                    makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                                    of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                                    necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                                    these others.

                                    TRL

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dear Todd,
                                    >
                                    > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                                    >
                                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                    >
                                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                                    > Priest's
                                    > maps are better than Sears'.
                                    >
                                    > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                                    > course, is
                                    > in a class of its own.
                                    >
                                    > TRL
                                    >

                                    >





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • James W. Durney
                                    ... example, ... appreciate ... think ... more ... I think Anitetam cannot be understood w/o elevation markings. My first chance to walk the battlefield was a
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                      > challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                      > expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                                      > maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                      > really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For
                                      example,
                                      > in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot
                                      appreciate
                                      > the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                                      > How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I
                                      think
                                      > a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is
                                      more
                                      > important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                      > clover, etc.).


                                      I think Anitetam cannot be understood w/o elevation markings. My
                                      first chance to walk the battlefield was a revelation that I will
                                      never forget. Neither Sears, Priest or Harsh had told me how much
                                      elevation impacts the battle.

                                      James
                                    • T. R. Livesey
                                      Murfin s maps also suffer somewhat from the problem that there is no image of the whole battlefield, making orientation difficult. Since I owned a copy of the
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 30, 2007
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                                        Murfin's maps also suffer somewhat from the problem that there is no
                                        image of the whole battlefield, making orientation difficult. Since I
                                        owned a copy of the Parks and History Association map before I read
                                        any of these books, I never really had a problem with orientation.

                                        While it is certainly not the 'best' book (at least not for an overall
                                        introduction to the battle), Luvaas & Nelson's "US Army War College
                                        Guide to the Battle of Antietam" is worthy of mention, particularly
                                        for actually visiting the battlefield and related sites at S Mountain
                                        and Harper's Ferry. Definitely the best driving directions for getting
                                        around S Mountain. Whenever I take visitor's to the battlefield, I
                                        always take the route that they suggest: start at the Pry House, then
                                        to the Keedysville road, over the little Antietam, past Pry's Mill,
                                        over the upper bridge, down the Smoketown road into the east woods.
                                        Not only does it take you past fields, roads and houses that look like
                                        they haven't changed much since 1862, but it also gives a good sense
                                        the kind of ground in the area. And, there will be no other tourists
                                        entering the battlefield from that route. At first glance their maps
                                        are somewhat primitive, but they do show contour lines, which in my
                                        opinion makes them far more useful than the maps in the other three.
                                        Cute symbols for corn and clover and stubble are cool but they just
                                        don't work when the map is reduced to book page size. Also
                                        indispensable if you are using the map while visiting the battlefield
                                        is the inclusion of modern features (e.g. roads, structures and tour
                                        stops) so that you can figure out where you are in relation to the
                                        historical features. None of the big three's maps show modern
                                        features, but the Luvaas & Nelson maps do. It's too bad that Luvaas &
                                        Nelson only did little map segments at Antietam to illustrate the
                                        portions of ground they study instead of producing a whole battlefield
                                        map because I think they had the right idea given the limitations of
                                        maps that appear in a book. Their map of the Harper's Ferry area is great.

                                        TRL

                                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > TR,
                                        > I couldn't agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the
                                        Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings.
                                        Great if you want to know crops types, fences, etc. but not good for
                                        understanding the battle. Preist used this map, but the whole thing
                                        never appears in the book so if you don't know the field to begin
                                        with, you'll be lost like a hiccup in a hurricane. Also he used some
                                        odd symbols for artillery, etc.
                                        > Tom Clemen
                                        >
                                        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                        > Professor of History
                                        > Hagerstown Community College
                                        >
                                        > s
                                        > >>> "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...> 05/30/07 1:36 PM >>>
                                        >
                                        > Gerry,
                                        >
                                        > In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                                        > James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                                        > of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                                        > use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                                        > There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                                        > shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                                        > been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.
                                        >
                                        > Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                                        > I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                                        > similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                                        > of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.
                                        >
                                        > From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                        > challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                        > expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                                        > maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                        > really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                                        > in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                                        > the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                                        > How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                                        > a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                                        > important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                        > clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                                        > to look at and readers are drawn to them.
                                        >
                                        > The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                                        > use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                                        > whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                                        > map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                                        > makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                                        > of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                                        > necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                                        > these others.
                                        >
                                        > TRL
                                        >
                                      • Stephen Recker
                                        Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks. Stephen Recker
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                          Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.

                                          Stephen Recker
                                        • G E Mayers
                                          Stephen, What other information do you have about his unit? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                            Stephen,

                                            What other information do you have about his unit?

                                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:41 PM
                                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lt. March of the 32nd MA


                                            > Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.
                                            >
                                            > Stephen Recker
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Stephen Recker
                                            I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson, some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper s Ferry that, I
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
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                                              I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson,
                                              some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper's
                                              Ferry that, "I will meet you in Sharpsburg". Can't find the cite.
                                              Actually can only find Stonewall asking Lee where he should go after
                                              the fall of HF. Any thoughts? Thanks.

                                              Stephen Recker
                                            • Thomas Clemens
                                              Steve, 1st lt. James E. March mustered in with te regiment, mustered out 10/27/1864 on expiration of service, was recommissioned from civil life 12/1/1864.
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jun 2, 2007
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                                                Steve,
                                                1st lt. James E. March mustered in with te regiment, mustered out
                                                10/27/1864 on expiration of service, was "recommissioned from civil
                                                life" 12/1/1864. Offical Army Register, Vol. I, p. 200.

                                                Tom Clemens


                                                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                Professor of History
                                                Hagerstown Community College


                                                >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 06/01/07 1:48 PM >>>
                                                Stephen,

                                                What other information do you have about his unit?

                                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:41 PM
                                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lt. March of the 32nd MA


                                                > Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.
                                                >
                                                > Stephen Recker
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • Thomas Clemens
                                                Steve, The only message recorded as sent by Jackson to Lee on the 15th was the announcement of the surrender of HF. In that message, OR, Vol. 19, pt. 1, p.
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jun 2, 2007
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                                                  Steve,
                                                  The only message recorded as sent by Jackson to Lee on the 15th was the
                                                  announcement of the surrender of HF. In that message, OR, Vol. 19, pt.
                                                  1, p. 951, he asks Lee where to send his troops. If there is something
                                                  else I don't know of it, and neither does Joe Harsh, who discusses it in
                                                  Sounding the Shallows, Chap. 8, section L.


                                                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                  Professor of History
                                                  Hagerstown Community College


                                                  >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 06/01/07 6:34 PM >>>
                                                  I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson,
                                                  some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper's
                                                  Ferry that, "I will meet you in Sharpsburg". Can't find the cite.
                                                  Actually can only find Stonewall asking Lee where he should go after
                                                  the fall of HF. Any thoughts? Thanks.

                                                  Stephen Recker
                                                • joseph_pierro
                                                  Having just joined the group, I realize I m coming into this discussion a tad late (so please forgive). For anyone interested in a broad study of the entire
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jun 23, 2007
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                                                    Having just joined the group, I realize I'm coming into this
                                                    discussion a tad late (so please forgive).

                                                    For anyone interested in a broad study of the entire campaign at the
                                                    operational level, I'd recommend Harsh as a good first start.

                                                    If the tactical mechanics of Antietam itself are more your concern,
                                                    I'd recommend either Murfin or Sears.

                                                    Mike Priest's books contain a good deal of "color" from soldiers in
                                                    the ranks; his "big picture" can be a bit difficult to follow if you
                                                    are not already well versed on the basics of the battle.

                                                    The Ezra Carman manuscript is incredibly detailed (imagine Sears or
                                                    Murfin, but on a regimental level-focus instead of brigade or
                                                    division). Wonderful for later study, but not a place I would
                                                    recommend someone to start their investigation. (It's similar in
                                                    that regard to Bigelow's "Campaign of Chancellorsville," if you are
                                                    familiar with that massive study.)

                                                    As for maps, Murfin's are quite good, and are baszed off of the
                                                    original Carman Atlas of Antietam. It's long out of print, but the
                                                    Library of Congress was recently scanned it in in its entirety as
                                                    part of its "American Memory" digital archive. I don;t have the link
                                                    to hand -- I'm writing this from the road-- but if you search Carman
                                                    and Antietam in American Memory, you'll get teh link for the Atlas.
                                                    Best of all, the map reading software--which you can download for
                                                    free--allows you to zoom as tight as you might want in crystal clear
                                                    resolution).


                                                    -- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Dear Stephen,
                                                    >
                                                    > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                                                    >
                                                    > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                                                    > of Bayonets.
                                                    >
                                                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                                    >
                                                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                                                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                                                    > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                                                    > is
                                                    > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                                                    > Flood.
                                                    > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                                                    > mentioned,
                                                    > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                                                    >
                                                    > Stephen
                                                    >
                                                  • Thomas Clemens
                                                    A friend on another list pointed out that Isaac Wistar s memoirs mention going to Keedysville after he was wounded and being treated at a shopkeeper s house
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Oct 6, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      A friend on another list pointed out that Isaac Wistar's memoirs mention
                                                      going to Keedysville after he was wounded and being treated at a
                                                      shopkeeper's house where other 71st PA officers were also treated. The
                                                      shopkeeper, accordnig to Wistar, was killed by a stray shot. has anyone
                                                      ever heard this story before? It is not in O.T. Reilly's book, or other
                                                      accounts I have seen. Any data?


                                                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                      Professor of History
                                                      Hagerstown Community College
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