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Re: [TalkAntietam] Question

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  • tangogee@aol.com
    In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time, JWD2044@hotmail.com writes: What is the best book on this battle? A bit like asking how long is a
    Message 1 of 30 , May 27, 2007
      In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time,
      JWD2044@... writes:

      What is the "best book" on this battle?



      A bit like asking how long is a piece of string ;-)

      I like Sears, Priest and murfin all about the same.

      Granville






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • jdpolaski@aol.com
      There is another book called Antietam, by William A. Frassanito which is a pretty good book also. ************************************** See what s free at
      Message 2 of 30 , May 27, 2007
        There is another book called Antietam, by William A. Frassanito which is a
        pretty good book also.



        ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • richard@rcroker.com
        I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint. I recommend Sears. (sigh) Richard Croker ... From: tangogee@aol.com To:
        Message 3 of 30 , May 27, 2007
          I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint.

          I recommend Sears. (sigh)

          Richard Croker

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: tangogee@...
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:02 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question



          In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time,
          JWD2044@... writes:

          What is the "best book" on this battle?

          A bit like asking how long is a piece of string ;-)

          I like Sears, Priest and murfin all about the same.

          Granville

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stephen Recker
          As far a as a general who-shot-who , I would recommend Sears Landscape Turned Red for a first-timer. James Murphin s Gleam of Bayonets pre-dates Sears
          Message 4 of 30 , May 27, 2007
            As far a as a general 'who-shot-who', I would recommend Sears'
            "Landscape Turned Red" for a first-timer. James Murphin's "Gleam of
            Bayonets" pre-dates Sears and is thought by some to be more
            historically accurate, but Sears is a better read IMHO. Sears also
            covers more of the battle than Murfin. But certainly read Murfin next.

            That said, I've been thinking about raising this question for a while.
            Some have said that they feel Sears gets some things wrong in his book.
            Would anyone care to share where they think he went wrong? Thanks.

            Stephen








            On Sunday, May 27, 2007, at 03:38 PM, James W. Durney wrote:

            > What is the "best book" on this battle?
            >
          • Tom Shay
            I m sure Stephen Recker and other Antietam guides are routinely asked that question. Indeed, during last weekend s visit to Antietam, many members of the
            Message 5 of 30 , May 27, 2007
              I'm sure Stephen Recker and other Antietam guides are routinely asked that question. Indeed, during last weekend's visit to Antietam, many members of the Gettysburg CWRT asked for book suggestions.

              For a detailed explanation of the Maryland Campaign, South Mtn and Antietam, Sears' LANDSCAPE TURNED RED is a good choice.

              The best and most thought-provoking history of the Maryland Campaignn is Joe Harsh's TAKEN AT THE FLOOD, albeit from Lee's prespective.

              James Murfin's "Gleam of Bayonets" runs a decent second place to both above books.

              The forthcoming publication of Ezra Carman's battle history will provide a long-needed detailed tactical study of the battle itself.

              Tom Shay


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: James W. Durney
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:38 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Question


              What is the "best book" on this battle?





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • G E Mayers
              It depends on what you are looking for. Strategically the :best: book I have read is Joe Harsh s Taken at the Flood. Tactically, the best is Jim Murfin s Gleam
              Message 6 of 30 , May 28, 2007
                It depends on what you are looking for. Strategically the :best:
                book I have read is Joe Harsh's Taken at the Flood. Tactically,
                the best is Jim Murfin's Gleam of Bayonets.

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:38 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Question


                What is the "best book" on this battle?
              • G E Mayers
                Dear Richard, IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears great hindrance to Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set foot on the actual
                Message 7 of 30 , May 28, 2007
                  Dear Richard,

                  IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears' great hindrance to
                  Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set
                  foot on the actual terrain while writing the book. Murfin, on the
                  other hand, was intimately familiar with all the terrain features
                  of the field of battle...and it shows in his book.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: <richard@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:50 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question


                  >I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint.
                  >
                  > I recommend Sears. (sigh)
                  >
                  > Richard Croker
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: tangogee@...
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:02 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time,
                  > JWD2044@... writes:
                  >
                  > What is the "best book" on this battle?
                  >
                  > A bit like asking how long is a piece of string ;-)
                  >
                  > I like Sears, Priest and murfin all about the same.
                  >
                  > Granville
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • richard@rcroker.com
                  I was astounded when I wrote No Greater Courage...The very first time I ever went to Fredericksburg, Donald Pfanz (staff historian) told me he was already
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 28, 2007
                    I was astounded when I wrote No Greater Courage...The very first time I ever went to Fredericksburg, Donald Pfanz (staff historian) told me he was already impressed with my research. I had only just begun, so I asked why -- He said, "Because you're here. People write books about this fight and never bother to show up."

                    It was a little tough for me, living in Atlanta (I should have picked different battles I guess), but six trips to Sharpsburg and four to Fredericksburg and I had at least a feel for the lay of the land.

                    I used Murfin and Sears (and about a dozen others) but without Landscape Turned Red (and significant help from Ted and Walter), I would have been lost in terms of what happened when. Sears is a decent writer -- more than can be said for a great many minutiae hunters.

                    Richard

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: G E Mayers
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 3:37 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question


                    Dear Richard,

                    IMHO Sears is not as good as Murfin. Sears' great hindrance to
                    Landscape Turned Red, and IMHO it shows, is he never once set
                    foot on the actual terrain while writing the book. Murfin, on the
                    other hand, was intimately familiar with all the terrain features
                    of the field of battle...and it shows in his book.

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <richard@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:50 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question

                    >I hope you are all in deep admiration of my self-restraint.
                    >
                    > I recommend Sears. (sigh)
                    >
                    > Richard Croker
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: tangogee@...
                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:02 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Question
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 27/05/2007 20:39:02 GMT Daylight Time,
                    > JWD2044@... writes:
                    >
                    > What is the "best book" on this battle?
                    >
                    > A bit like asking how long is a piece of string ;-)
                    >
                    > I like Sears, Priest and murfin all about the same.
                    >
                    > Granville
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • James W. Durney
                    No one has mentioned Priest s book on the battle. The first Antietam book I read was Sears book, somehow it left me with a very bad impression of the battle.
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 29, 2007
                      No one has mentioned Priest's book on the battle. The first Antietam
                      book I read was Sears' book, somehow it left me with a very bad
                      impression of the battle. Years later, I picked up the Preist book and
                      found a different view, which lead me to Harsh's work. I know Priest
                      has been savaged for his South Mt. battle book by some people.
                      However, I would like to know why his Antietam book has been left off
                      every list.

                      James
                    • G E Mayers
                      James, Priest is good also, but a lot of what he writes or cites is just plain wrong.... There are many instances of his citations being wrong or incorrect. He
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 29, 2007
                        James,

                        Priest is good also, but a lot of what he writes or cites is just
                        plain wrong.... There are many instances of his citations being
                        wrong or incorrect.

                        He also can be very confusing to read..............

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:07 AM
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                        No one has mentioned Priest's book on the battle. The first
                        Antietam
                        book I read was Sears' book, somehow it left me with a very bad
                        impression of the battle. Years later, I picked up the Preist
                        book and
                        found a different view, which lead me to Harsh's work. I know
                        Priest
                        has been savaged for his South Mt. battle book by some people.
                        However, I would like to know why his Antietam book has been left
                        off
                        every list.

                        James
                      • Phen62
                        Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it is helpful to Read Confederate
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 29, 2007
                          Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                          Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it is
                          helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the Flood.
                          I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books mentioned,
                          Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.

                          Stephen
                        • G E Mayers
                          Dear Stephen, Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken. However, Sears maps are not as good as those in Murfin s Gleam of Bayonets. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 29, 2007
                            Dear Stephen,

                            Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.

                            However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                            of Bayonets.

                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                            Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                            Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                            is
                            helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                            Flood.
                            I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                            mentioned,
                            Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.

                            Stephen
                          • T. R. Livesey
                            I agree with Gerry: Murfin s maps are better than Sears . Priest s maps are better than Sears . The Carman-Cope Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam , of
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 30, 2007
                              I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'. Priest's
                              maps are better than Sears'.

                              The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of course, is
                              in a class of its own.

                              TRL

                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Stephen,
                              >
                              > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                              >
                              > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                              > of Bayonets.
                              >
                              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                              >
                              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                              >
                              >
                              > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                              > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                              > is
                              > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                              > Flood.
                              > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                              > mentioned,
                              > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                              >
                              > Stephen
                              >
                            • G E Mayers
                              Dear Todd, IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book.... Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 30, 2007
                                Dear Todd,

                                IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....

                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                                I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                                Priest's
                                maps are better than Sears'.

                                The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                                course, is
                                in a class of its own.

                                TRL

                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Stephen,
                                >
                                > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                                >
                                > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                                > of Bayonets.
                                >
                                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                >
                                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                > from
                                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                >
                                >
                                > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through,
                                > and
                                > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                                > is
                                > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                                > Flood.
                                > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                                > mentioned,
                                > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                                >
                                > Stephen
                                >
                              • T. R. Livesey
                                Gerry, In Murfin s introduction, he states that the maps are the work of James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision of the Cope maps.
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 30, 2007
                                  Gerry,

                                  In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                                  James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                                  of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                                  use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                                  There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                                  shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                                  been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.

                                  Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                                  I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                                  similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                                  of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                                  From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                  challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                  expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                                  maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                  really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                                  in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                                  the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                                  How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                                  a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                                  important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                  clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                                  to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                                  The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                                  use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                                  whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                                  map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                                  makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                                  of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                                  necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                                  these others.

                                  TRL

                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Todd,
                                  >
                                  > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                                  >
                                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                  >
                                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                                  > Priest's
                                  > maps are better than Sears'.
                                  >
                                  > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                                  > course, is
                                  > in a class of its own.
                                  >
                                  > TRL
                                  >

                                  >
                                • G E Mayers
                                  Thanks Todd. BTW the Trailhead Graphics map of Antietam is simply superb... but unfortunately not possible to put in a book. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 30, 2007
                                    Thanks Todd.

                                    BTW the Trailhead Graphics map of Antietam is simply superb...
                                    but unfortunately not possible to put in a book.

                                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 1:36 PM
                                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question


                                    Gerry,

                                    In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                                    James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a
                                    revision
                                    of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps,
                                    but
                                    use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale
                                    reproduction.
                                    There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the
                                    other
                                    shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines
                                    have
                                    been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their
                                    usefulness.

                                    Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base,
                                    which
                                    I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that
                                    are
                                    similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the
                                    history
                                    of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                                    From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                    challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                    expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up
                                    with
                                    maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                    really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For
                                    example,
                                    in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot
                                    appreciate
                                    the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get
                                    `lost'?
                                    How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I
                                    think
                                    a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is
                                    more
                                    important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                    clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically
                                    pleasing
                                    to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                                    The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines
                                    is to
                                    use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                                    whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History
                                    Association
                                    map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                                    makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the
                                    authors
                                    of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                                    necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any
                                    of
                                    these others.

                                    TRL

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dear Todd,
                                    >
                                    > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                                    >
                                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                    >
                                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                    > from
                                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                                    > Priest's
                                    > maps are better than Sears'.
                                    >
                                    > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                                    > course, is
                                    > in a class of its own.
                                    >
                                    > TRL
                                    >

                                    >
                                  • Thomas Clemens
                                    TR, I couldn t agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings. Great if you want to
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 30, 2007
                                      TR,
                                      I couldn't agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings. Great if you want to know crops types, fences, etc. but not good for understanding the battle. Preist used this map, but the whole thing never appears in the book so if you don't know the field to begin with, you'll be lost like a hiccup in a hurricane. Also he used some odd symbols for artillery, etc.
                                      Tom Clemen

                                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                      Professor of History
                                      Hagerstown Community College

                                      s
                                      >>> "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...> 05/30/07 1:36 PM >>>

                                      Gerry,

                                      In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                                      James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                                      of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                                      use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                                      There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                                      shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                                      been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.

                                      Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                                      I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                                      similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                                      of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.

                                      From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                      challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                      expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                                      maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                      really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                                      in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                                      the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                                      How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                                      a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                                      important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                      clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                                      to look at and readers are drawn to them.

                                      The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                                      use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                                      whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                                      map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                                      makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                                      of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                                      necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                                      these others.

                                      TRL

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Todd,
                                      >
                                      > IIRC Murfin used the Cope maps for his book....
                                      >
                                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                      >
                                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:40 PM
                                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I agree with Gerry: Murfin's maps are better than Sears'.
                                      > Priest's
                                      > maps are better than Sears'.
                                      >
                                      > The Carman-Cope "Atlas of the battlefield of Antietam", of
                                      > course, is
                                      > in a class of its own.
                                      >
                                      > TRL
                                      >

                                      >





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • James W. Durney
                                      ... example, ... appreciate ... think ... more ... I think Anitetam cannot be understood w/o elevation markings. My first chance to walk the battlefield was a
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 30, 2007
                                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                        > challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                        > expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                                        > maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                        > really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For
                                        example,
                                        > in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot
                                        appreciate
                                        > the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                                        > How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I
                                        think
                                        > a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is
                                        more
                                        > important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                        > clover, etc.).


                                        I think Anitetam cannot be understood w/o elevation markings. My
                                        first chance to walk the battlefield was a revelation that I will
                                        never forget. Neither Sears, Priest or Harsh had told me how much
                                        elevation impacts the battle.

                                        James
                                      • T. R. Livesey
                                        Murfin s maps also suffer somewhat from the problem that there is no image of the whole battlefield, making orientation difficult. Since I owned a copy of the
                                        Message 19 of 30 , May 30, 2007
                                          Murfin's maps also suffer somewhat from the problem that there is no
                                          image of the whole battlefield, making orientation difficult. Since I
                                          owned a copy of the Parks and History Association map before I read
                                          any of these books, I never really had a problem with orientation.

                                          While it is certainly not the 'best' book (at least not for an overall
                                          introduction to the battle), Luvaas & Nelson's "US Army War College
                                          Guide to the Battle of Antietam" is worthy of mention, particularly
                                          for actually visiting the battlefield and related sites at S Mountain
                                          and Harper's Ferry. Definitely the best driving directions for getting
                                          around S Mountain. Whenever I take visitor's to the battlefield, I
                                          always take the route that they suggest: start at the Pry House, then
                                          to the Keedysville road, over the little Antietam, past Pry's Mill,
                                          over the upper bridge, down the Smoketown road into the east woods.
                                          Not only does it take you past fields, roads and houses that look like
                                          they haven't changed much since 1862, but it also gives a good sense
                                          the kind of ground in the area. And, there will be no other tourists
                                          entering the battlefield from that route. At first glance their maps
                                          are somewhat primitive, but they do show contour lines, which in my
                                          opinion makes them far more useful than the maps in the other three.
                                          Cute symbols for corn and clover and stubble are cool but they just
                                          don't work when the map is reduced to book page size. Also
                                          indispensable if you are using the map while visiting the battlefield
                                          is the inclusion of modern features (e.g. roads, structures and tour
                                          stops) so that you can figure out where you are in relation to the
                                          historical features. None of the big three's maps show modern
                                          features, but the Luvaas & Nelson maps do. It's too bad that Luvaas &
                                          Nelson only did little map segments at Antietam to illustrate the
                                          portions of ground they study instead of producing a whole battlefield
                                          map because I think they had the right idea given the limitations of
                                          maps that appear in a book. Their map of the Harper's Ferry area is great.

                                          TRL

                                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > TR,
                                          > I couldn't agree more! The P&H map is the base map of the
                                          Carman/Cope maps, but they do indeed leave out the elevation markings.
                                          Great if you want to know crops types, fences, etc. but not good for
                                          understanding the battle. Preist used this map, but the whole thing
                                          never appears in the book so if you don't know the field to begin
                                          with, you'll be lost like a hiccup in a hurricane. Also he used some
                                          odd symbols for artillery, etc.
                                          > Tom Clemen
                                          >
                                          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                          > Professor of History
                                          > Hagerstown Community College
                                          >
                                          > s
                                          > >>> "T. R. Livesey" <tlivesey@...> 05/30/07 1:36 PM >>>
                                          >
                                          > Gerry,
                                          >
                                          > In Murfin's introduction, he states that the maps are the work of
                                          > James D. Bowlby, the result of 10 years of field surveys, a revision
                                          > of the Cope maps. The base map looks a lot like the Cope maps, but
                                          > use terrain symbols much more suitable for smaller-scale reproduction.
                                          > There are a few differences: one shows a corn field where the other
                                          > shows clover, etc. Inexplicably, the elevation contour lines have
                                          > been removed in Murphin's, seriously compromising their usefulness.
                                          >
                                          > Priest uses the "Parks and History Association" map as his base, which
                                          > I think more closely follows the Cope maps. It uses symbols that are
                                          > similar, but not identical to the Cope maps. I don't know the history
                                          > of this map. It too lacks elevation markings.
                                          >
                                          > From my experience, including elevation markings is always a
                                          > challenge, especially if you want to zoom out and show a broader
                                          > expanse of area. The downside, of course, is that you end up with
                                          > maps that look like the way Sears' text reads: there is no way to
                                          > really understand how the terrain affects the situation. For example,
                                          > in the maps of all three of these books, the reader cannot appreciate
                                          > the situation in the 40 acre cornfield: how can the 4RI get `lost'?
                                          > How can A.P. Hill come up out of nowhere on Burnside's left? I think
                                          > a serious argument can be made that the elevation information is more
                                          > important than the ground cover information (woods vs. corn vs.
                                          > clover, etc.). But ground cover maps are more aesthetically pleasing
                                          > to look at and readers are drawn to them.
                                          >
                                          > The obvious solution to the `busying-up' effect of contour lines is to
                                          > use contours of greater intervals: 50 ft. instead of 20 ft. or
                                          > whatever. Curiously, the version of the Parks and History Association
                                          > map sold at the Antietam bookstore is plenty large for contour
                                          > makings, but they are nonetheless omitted. I think somehow the authors
                                          > of these maps have simply decided that elevation markings are not
                                          > necessary. This is why the Cope maps are far more useful than any of
                                          > these others.
                                          >
                                          > TRL
                                          >
                                        • Stephen Recker
                                          Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks. Stephen Recker
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
                                            Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.

                                            Stephen Recker
                                          • G E Mayers
                                            Stephen, What other information do you have about his unit? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
                                              Stephen,

                                              What other information do you have about his unit?

                                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:41 PM
                                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lt. March of the 32nd MA


                                              > Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.
                                              >
                                              > Stephen Recker
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • Stephen Recker
                                              I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson, some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper s Ferry that, I
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jun 1, 2007
                                                I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson,
                                                some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper's
                                                Ferry that, "I will meet you in Sharpsburg". Can't find the cite.
                                                Actually can only find Stonewall asking Lee where he should go after
                                                the fall of HF. Any thoughts? Thanks.

                                                Stephen Recker
                                              • Thomas Clemens
                                                Steve, 1st lt. James E. March mustered in with te regiment, mustered out 10/27/1864 on expiration of service, was recommissioned from civil life 12/1/1864.
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jun 2, 2007
                                                  Steve,
                                                  1st lt. James E. March mustered in with te regiment, mustered out
                                                  10/27/1864 on expiration of service, was "recommissioned from civil
                                                  life" 12/1/1864. Offical Army Register, Vol. I, p. 200.

                                                  Tom Clemens


                                                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                  Professor of History
                                                  Hagerstown Community College


                                                  >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 06/01/07 1:48 PM >>>
                                                  Stephen,

                                                  What other information do you have about his unit?

                                                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:41 PM
                                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lt. March of the 32nd MA


                                                  > Anyone know anything about this fellow? Thanks.
                                                  >
                                                  > Stephen Recker
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Thomas Clemens
                                                  Steve, The only message recorded as sent by Jackson to Lee on the 15th was the announcement of the surrender of HF. In that message, OR, Vol. 19, pt. 1, p.
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jun 2, 2007
                                                    Steve,
                                                    The only message recorded as sent by Jackson to Lee on the 15th was the
                                                    announcement of the surrender of HF. In that message, OR, Vol. 19, pt.
                                                    1, p. 951, he asks Lee where to send his troops. If there is something
                                                    else I don't know of it, and neither does Joe Harsh, who discusses it in
                                                    Sounding the Shallows, Chap. 8, section L.


                                                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                    Professor of History
                                                    Hagerstown Community College


                                                    >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 06/01/07 6:34 PM >>>
                                                    I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that Stonewall Jackson,
                                                    some time around the morning of September 15th, wrote Lee from Harper's
                                                    Ferry that, "I will meet you in Sharpsburg". Can't find the cite.
                                                    Actually can only find Stonewall asking Lee where he should go after
                                                    the fall of HF. Any thoughts? Thanks.

                                                    Stephen Recker
                                                  • joseph_pierro
                                                    Having just joined the group, I realize I m coming into this discussion a tad late (so please forgive). For anyone interested in a broad study of the entire
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jun 23, 2007
                                                      Having just joined the group, I realize I'm coming into this
                                                      discussion a tad late (so please forgive).

                                                      For anyone interested in a broad study of the entire campaign at the
                                                      operational level, I'd recommend Harsh as a good first start.

                                                      If the tactical mechanics of Antietam itself are more your concern,
                                                      I'd recommend either Murfin or Sears.

                                                      Mike Priest's books contain a good deal of "color" from soldiers in
                                                      the ranks; his "big picture" can be a bit difficult to follow if you
                                                      are not already well versed on the basics of the battle.

                                                      The Ezra Carman manuscript is incredibly detailed (imagine Sears or
                                                      Murfin, but on a regimental level-focus instead of brigade or
                                                      division). Wonderful for later study, but not a place I would
                                                      recommend someone to start their investigation. (It's similar in
                                                      that regard to Bigelow's "Campaign of Chancellorsville," if you are
                                                      familiar with that massive study.)

                                                      As for maps, Murfin's are quite good, and are baszed off of the
                                                      original Carman Atlas of Antietam. It's long out of print, but the
                                                      Library of Congress was recently scanned it in in its entirety as
                                                      part of its "American Memory" digital archive. I don;t have the link
                                                      to hand -- I'm writing this from the road-- but if you search Carman
                                                      and Antietam in American Memory, you'll get teh link for the Atlas.
                                                      Best of all, the map reading software--which you can download for
                                                      free--allows you to zoom as tight as you might want in crystal clear
                                                      resolution).


                                                      -- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Dear Stephen,
                                                      >
                                                      > Your point about Harsh is definitely well taken.
                                                      >
                                                      > However, Sears' maps are not as good as those in Murfin's Gleam
                                                      > of Bayonets.
                                                      >
                                                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                                      >
                                                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                      > From: "Phen62" <phen@...>
                                                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18 PM
                                                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Question
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Having read Sears, as much as Priet as I could wade through, and
                                                      > Harsh, I favor Harsh. I think if you are going to read Harsh it
                                                      > is
                                                      > helpful to Read Confederate Tide Rising as well as Taken at the
                                                      > Flood.
                                                      > I believe he meant them to be one work. Of all the books
                                                      > mentioned,
                                                      > Sears has by far the best maps, not a small consideration.
                                                      >
                                                      > Stephen
                                                      >
                                                    • Thomas Clemens
                                                      A friend on another list pointed out that Isaac Wistar s memoirs mention going to Keedysville after he was wounded and being treated at a shopkeeper s house
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Oct 6 1:55 PM
                                                        A friend on another list pointed out that Isaac Wistar's memoirs mention
                                                        going to Keedysville after he was wounded and being treated at a
                                                        shopkeeper's house where other 71st PA officers were also treated. The
                                                        shopkeeper, accordnig to Wistar, was killed by a stray shot. has anyone
                                                        ever heard this story before? It is not in O.T. Reilly's book, or other
                                                        accounts I have seen. Any data?


                                                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                        Professor of History
                                                        Hagerstown Community College
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