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Re: [TalkAntietam] Antietam Tour: Burnside's Attack

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  • Bill & Glenna Jo Christen
    ... TR Thanks for this work. This is an excellent start to this study. It looks like there was more artillery than I imaged with LOS to the CS positions. I
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 22, 2001
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      TR Livesey wrote:

      > In this image, each point in the Union positions is evaluated to determine the
      > percentage of points in the Confederate position that have direct los with it....As
      > can be seen, a considerate amount of Union artillery has excellent los: nearly all of
      >
      > McMullen, Roemer, and Muhlenberg's, and some of Cook's and Benjamin's have los at
      > 100%

      TR

      Thanks for this work. This is an excellent start to this study. It looks like there was
      more artillery than I imaged with LOS to the CS positions.

      I think the next step it to figure out the location of the batteries from sunrise until
      the bridge was taken around 1 PM. One would suspect that all these batteries were in
      position by sunrise, but that might not be the case. Another step will be to check the
      ORs and other accounts for time relationships to when any batteries were active.

      > On the map above I drew a red line to indicate the direction of 1 possible
      > profile...As can be seen, there is clear line of sight between the Union and
      > Confederate positions, at least alone this profile.
      >
      > Why the Lower Bridge defenders were not pounded by Union artillery cannot be
      > explained strictly by the orientation of hills and terrain features.

      I agree. As this (the lower bridge action) was a "demonstration" per original orders to
      Burnside, perhaps not all batteries were ordered into action. Anticipation of driving
      the CS forces from the bridge without delay and the subsequent movement of batteries to
      positions overlooking Sharpsburg might have caused the batteries to remain limbered.

      > ...Or perhaps there were other factors...

      Firing downward at CS units at the base of the bridge along the creek would be hamper
      by the ability to angle the guns in an effective manner. Also smoke and later the
      presence of US forces along the east bank of the creek would prohibit effect fire.

      > It would be nice to do a field trip and visit the actual Union artillery positions to
      > see what you can see from there.

      I am planning to be at the Harpers Ferry 1860 Election Day event on 13 October
      (Saturday) and would consider a small "scout" in the area early on Friday or Sunday
      mornings. I am also planning to be in the area just on the Gettysburg Remembrance Day
      weekend in November. Let me know if anyone can join me. We need the Pflum boys to help
      us with Ninth Corps artillery details.

      Ninth Corps Artillery...

      Eighth MA (Cook's)
      "...morning east of Antietam Creek...battery fired for an hour or two on two rebel
      batteries on the hills to the right and left of the village of Sharpsburg."

      The left section (two or four guns?) of was detached on went into action AFTER crossing
      the bridge.

      Second US, Btty E (Benjamin's or Carlisle's)
      "morning...opened fire early on a battery which was shelling ...Rodman's
      division...several times during the day we engaged a battery of eight guns to the right
      [north] of Sharpsburg...also fired on batteries left [south of the town] [no tome is
      specified for these actions].

      PA Light, Btty D (Durell's)
      "...morning...the enemy opened a heavy artillery fire, from which their projectiles
      fell thick in our [Sturgis' Brigade] camp, and I [Sturgis] sent Captain Rawole forward
      with Captain Durell's battery, which took position on an eminence and to the left of
      Captain Weed's battery [?], already engaged. Some of the enemy's batteries were soon
      silenced...it became necessary to send Captain Clark's battery up, which soon got into
      position on the left of...Durell's. I now received orders from...Burnside to move still
      farther to the left and front, and cross the Antietam Bridge. The batteries
      were...withdrawn and placed in new positions, so as to aid in clearing the wood on the
      opposite bank...One section was placed on the right of Benjamin's battery, in the rear
      of the cornfield, through which the division moved toward the bridge. Another section
      was placed on the right of the road, about 400 yards from the bridge, but did not open.
      Captain Clark's battery was ordered to a position on the right of the woods, near the
      slope occupied by the division the previous night, and one section held in reserve."

      Fourth US, Btty E (Clark's)
      "...Clark, of Battery E, Fourth Artillery, who did excellent service, and received four
      wounds during the day."
      also see above

      Fifth US, Btty A (Mulenberg's)
      OH Light, First Btty (McMullin's)
      McMullin's battery was in the thick of the action at Fox's Gap on the 14th. I do not
      know what shape it was in on the 17th.

      KY Light (Simmond's Btty)
      Third US, Btty L & M (Edward's)

      At 10 AM Colonel Christ was "...ordered to support some batteries covering our advance
      near the stone bridge."

      What battery was assigned to the Ninth New York?

      > The area is private property, so I have never been up there.

      We could at least get a sighting back toward the US positions while arrangements can be
      made for a spring walk.

      Thanks again TR

      Bill
    • rotbaron@aol.com
      My sincere thanks to Todd for some great maps. I surely will use them (and any others) in my ongoing study of the action during Burnside s assault. They
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 22, 2001
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        My sincere thanks to Todd for some great maps. I surely will use them (and any others) in my ongoing study of the action during Burnside's assault. They greatly help in my gaining an understanding of this portion of the battle. I'll pass them along to the Rangers.

        You should (seriously!) consider putting together a book featuring your topographical anyalsis of the battle.

        Tom Shay - Cressona, PA
      • Tom Clemens
        Bill, McMullin s has a monumnet on the ridge where the Ninth Corps guns were located. It is right along the Burnside Bridge road, the real road, not the NPS
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 22, 2001
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          Bill,
          McMullin's has a monumnet on the ridge where the Ninth Corps guns were located. It is
          right along the Burnside Bridge road, the real road, not the NPS road. I'd be happy to
          show you if I am available.


          Bill & Glenna Jo Christen wrote:

          > TR Livesey wrote:
          >
          > > In this image, each point in the Union positions is evaluated to determine the
          > > percentage of points in the Confederate position that have direct los with it....As
          > > can be seen, a considerate amount of Union artillery has excellent los: nearly all of
          > >
          > > McMullen, Roemer, and Muhlenberg's, and some of Cook's and Benjamin's have los at
          > > 100%
          >
          > TR
          >
          > Thanks for this work. This is an excellent start to this study. It looks like there was
          > more artillery than I imaged with LOS to the CS positions.
          >
          > I think the next step it to figure out the location of the batteries from sunrise until
          > the bridge was taken around 1 PM. One would suspect that all these batteries were in
          > position by sunrise, but that might not be the case. Another step will be to check the
          > ORs and other accounts for time relationships to when any batteries were active.
          >
          > > On the map above I drew a red line to indicate the direction of 1 possible
          > > profile...As can be seen, there is clear line of sight between the Union and
          > > Confederate positions, at least alone this profile.
          > >
          > > Why the Lower Bridge defenders were not pounded by Union artillery cannot be
          > > explained strictly by the orientation of hills and terrain features.
          >
          > I agree. As this (the lower bridge action) was a "demonstration" per original orders to
          > Burnside, perhaps not all batteries were ordered into action. Anticipation of driving
          > the CS forces from the bridge without delay and the subsequent movement of batteries to
          > positions overlooking Sharpsburg might have caused the batteries to remain limbered.
          >
          > > ...Or perhaps there were other factors...
          >
          > Firing downward at CS units at the base of the bridge along the creek would be hamper
          > by the ability to angle the guns in an effective manner. Also smoke and later the
          > presence of US forces along the east bank of the creek would prohibit effect fire.
          >
          > > It would be nice to do a field trip and visit the actual Union artillery positions to
          > > see what you can see from there.
          >
          > I am planning to be at the Harpers Ferry 1860 Election Day event on 13 October
          > (Saturday) and would consider a small "scout" in the area early on Friday or Sunday
          > mornings. I am also planning to be in the area just on the Gettysburg Remembrance Day
          > weekend in November. Let me know if anyone can join me. We need the Pflum boys to help
          > us with Ninth Corps artillery details.
          >
          > Ninth Corps Artillery...
          >
          > Eighth MA (Cook's)
          > "...morning east of Antietam Creek...battery fired for an hour or two on two rebel
          > batteries on the hills to the right and left of the village of Sharpsburg."
          >
          > The left section (two or four guns?) of was detached on went into action AFTER crossing
          > the bridge.
          >
          > Second US, Btty E (Benjamin's or Carlisle's)
          > "morning...opened fire early on a battery which was shelling ...Rodman's
          > division...several times during the day we engaged a battery of eight guns to the right
          > [north] of Sharpsburg...also fired on batteries left [south of the town] [no tome is
          > specified for these actions].
          >
          > PA Light, Btty D (Durell's)
          > "...morning...the enemy opened a heavy artillery fire, from which their projectiles
          > fell thick in our [Sturgis' Brigade] camp, and I [Sturgis] sent Captain Rawole forward
          > with Captain Durell's battery, which took position on an eminence and to the left of
          > Captain Weed's battery [?], already engaged. Some of the enemy's batteries were soon
          > silenced...it became necessary to send Captain Clark's battery up, which soon got into
          > position on the left of...Durell's. I now received orders from...Burnside to move still
          > farther to the left and front, and cross the Antietam Bridge. The batteries
          > were...withdrawn and placed in new positions, so as to aid in clearing the wood on the
          > opposite bank...One section was placed on the right of Benjamin's battery, in the rear
          > of the cornfield, through which the division moved toward the bridge. Another section
          > was placed on the right of the road, about 400 yards from the bridge, but did not open.
          > Captain Clark's battery was ordered to a position on the right of the woods, near the
          > slope occupied by the division the previous night, and one section held in reserve."
          >
          > Fourth US, Btty E (Clark's)
          > "...Clark, of Battery E, Fourth Artillery, who did excellent service, and received four
          > wounds during the day."
          > also see above
          >
          > Fifth US, Btty A (Mulenberg's)
          > OH Light, First Btty (McMullin's)
          > McMullin's battery was in the thick of the action at Fox's Gap on the 14th. I do not
          > know what shape it was in on the 17th.
          >
          > KY Light (Simmond's Btty)
          > Third US, Btty L & M (Edward's)
          >
          > At 10 AM Colonel Christ was "...ordered to support some batteries covering our advance
          > near the stone bridge."
          >
          > What battery was assigned to the Ninth New York?
          >
          > > The area is private property, so I have never been up there.
          >
          > We could at least get a sighting back toward the US positions while arrangements can be
          > made for a spring walk.
          >
          > Thanks again TR
          >
          > Bill
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • NJ Rebel
          Tom; I would second that assessment. Todd really has performed a valuable service and I think a book similar to the format used by Frassanito would be a most
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 23, 2001
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            Tom;

            I would second that assessment. Todd really has performed a
            valuable service and I think a book similar to the format used by
            Frassanito would be a most welcome addition to an understanding
            of the battle.

            Your humble servant,
            Gerry Mayers
            Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
            Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

            "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
            on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
            Edward Lee


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <rotbaron@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 12:17 AM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Antietam Tour: Burnside's Attack


            > My sincere thanks to Todd for some great maps. I surely will
            use them (and any others) in my ongoing study of the action
            during Burnside's assault. They greatly help in my gaining an
            understanding of this portion of the battle. I'll pass them along
            to the Rangers.
            >
            > You should (seriously!) consider putting together a book
            featuring your topographical anyalsis of the battle.
            >
            > Tom Shay - Cressona, PA
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
          • TR Livesey
            Tom S and Jerry, I m glad you find this kind of analysis interesting; I do, but there doesn t seem to be anyone else doing it. I have attempted from time to
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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              Tom S and Jerry,

              I'm glad you find this kind of analysis interesting;
              I do, but there doesn't seem to be anyone else doing
              it.

              I have attempted from time to time to bring together
              some collection of analyses of the battlefield.
              I am currently collecting them under

              http://www.enteract.com/~westwood/topo_study

              They are currently incomplete, unproofread, and
              draft; a great deal of material there now is
              a description of the methods used, which might
              be somewhat tedious. I hope to be filling it
              out over time. I will probably add this issue
              of Union artillery at the Lower Bridge LOS to
              the collection; it was a pretty interesting
              question.

              If anyone else has some burning questions that
              a look at the topography might help, feel free
              to make suggestions.

              TR Livesey
              westwood@...

              NJ Rebel wrote:
              >
              > Tom;
              >
              > I would second that assessment. Todd really has performed a
              > valuable service and I think a book similar to the format used by
              > Frassanito would be a most welcome addition to an understanding
              > of the battle.
              >
              > Your humble servant,
              > Gerry Mayers
              > Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
              > Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry
              >
              > "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
              > on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
              > Edward Lee
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <rotbaron@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 12:17 AM
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Antietam Tour: Burnside's Attack
              >
              > > My sincere thanks to Todd for some great maps. I surely will
              > use them (and any others) in my ongoing study of the action
              > during Burnside's assault. They greatly help in my gaining an
              > understanding of this portion of the battle. I'll pass them along
              > to the Rangers.
              > >
              > > You should (seriously!) consider putting together a book
              > featuring your topographical anyalsis of the battle.
              > >
              > > Tom Shay - Cressona, PA
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > Service.
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • TR Livesey
              Tom, Can you actually get up to where the guns were? By my reconing, the guns were up hill a good 80/100 feet over the current road bed. I am assuming the spot
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                Tom,

                Can you actually get up to where the guns were? By my reconing, the
                guns were up hill a good 80/100 feet over the current road bed.

                I am assuming the spot of the monument you are referring to is
                near where the modern road (in white) exits the bottom of this
                image:

                http://www.enteract.com/~westwood/talkantietam/base.gif

                TR Livesey
                westwood@...

                Tom Clemens wrote:
                >
                > Bill,
                > McMullin's has a monumnet on the ridge where the Ninth Corps guns were located. It is
                > right along the Burnside Bridge road, the real road, not the NPS road. I'd be happy to
                > show you if I am available.
                >
              • Tom Clemens
                TR, With permission, yes. The monument is located at the crest of the hill adjacent to the road, and yes the guns were well uphill from there. As usual, your
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                  TR,
                  With permission, yes. The monument is located at the crest of the hill adjacent to the road,
                  and yes the guns were well uphill from there. As usual, your maps are excellent.


                  TR Livesey wrote:

                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > Can you actually get up to where the guns were? By my reconing, the
                  > guns were up hill a good 80/100 feet over the current road bed.
                  >
                  > I am assuming the spot of the monument you are referring to is
                  > near where the modern road (in white) exits the bottom of this
                  > image:
                  >
                  > http://www.enteract.com/~westwood/talkantietam/base.gif
                  >
                  > TR Livesey
                  > westwood@...
                  >
                  > Tom Clemens wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Bill,
                  > > McMullin's has a monumnet on the ridge where the Ninth Corps guns were located. It is
                  > > right along the Burnside Bridge road, the real road, not the NPS road. I'd be happy to
                  > > show you if I am available.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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