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[TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

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  • Thomas Clemens
    Yes, but he doesn t travel much. You d most likely need to call him and go to his house. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
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      Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him and go to his house.


      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College



      >>> "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> 04/08/07 8:27 PM >>>

      Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

      James

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: gerry1952@...
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
      >
      >
      > Mike,
      >
      > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
      > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
      > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James W. Durney
      ... and go to his house. ... Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to get them signed. James
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
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        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him
        and go to his house.
        >
        >
        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College

        Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to
        get them signed.

        James
      • joseph_pierro
        Dear Adam (and Gerry): There seems to be a little confusion about this book. It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was written soem
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 23, 2007
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          Dear Adam (and Gerry):

          There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

          It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was
          written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it remains an
          unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is the
          (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own 1,400
          page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of pages;
          my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

          As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
          that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to this
          day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to say
          it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted when
          standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a modern
          work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
          interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
          Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the battle
          ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth of
          that statement.

          Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree with
          everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
          coming to grips with his work at some point.

          Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been an
          exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
          have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
          agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants (though
          owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational study.

          I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
          otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five people
          have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
          themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
          improve once he sees it. ;)

          --Joseph Pierro
          Hanover Co., Va.

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear Adam,
          >
          > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as
          less
          > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate
          on
          > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
          > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
          > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union,
          a
          > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
          Almighty
          > God. --Anonymous
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
          >
          >
          > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
          > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
          > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
          on
          > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
          would
          > be
          > > definitive. But very long.
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
          > > some
          > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
          > >
          > > James
          > >
          >
        • G E Mayers
          Dear Joseph, I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian of the Battle of
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
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            Dear Joseph,

            I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
            which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
            of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
            carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
            veterans of both sides.

            Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
            was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
            literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
            muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
            training"!!!!), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
            facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
            to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
            about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
            is not without its flaws.

            Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
            titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg", which can be purchased
            in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
            paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
            a very good source and containing much valuable information.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


            Dear Adam (and Gerry):

            There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

            It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
            was
            written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
            remains an
            unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
            the
            (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
            1,400
            page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
            pages;
            my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

            As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
            that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
            this
            day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
            say
            it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
            when
            standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
            modern
            work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
            interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
            Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
            battle
            ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
            of
            that statement.

            Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
            with
            everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
            coming to grips with his work at some point.

            Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
            an
            exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
            have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
            agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
            (though
            owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational
            study.

            I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
            otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
            people
            have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
            themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
            improve once he sees it. ;)

            --Joseph Pierro
            Hanover Co., Va.

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear Adam,
            >
            > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
            > as
            less
            > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
            > Doctorate
            on
            > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
            > person
            > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on
            > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union,
            a
            > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
            Almighty
            > God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
            >
            >
            > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
            > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
            > coming out
            > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney"
            > <JWD2044@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
            > > <clemenst@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
            > > > work
            on
            > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
            > > they
            would
            > be
            > > definitive. But very long.
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
            > > read
            > > some
            > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
            > > James
            > >
            >
          • Joseph Pierro
            Dear Gerry: Please call me Jake. All my friends do. My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
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              Dear Gerry:

              Please call me Jake. All my friends do.

              My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the "about to be published" Carman manuscript as "the definitive work.

              Your statement in reply was something on the lines of "hardly definitive"--which I took as a remark upon my job of EDITING it. I see that you meant to refer to Carman's manuscript itself.

              To which, I concur that Carman is HARDLY the last work on the subject. In fact, he owes (and openly acknowledges) quite a debt to Palfrey (quoting him verbatim and at length in many passages) and other contemporaries. In that regard, I am not aware of ANY author who has written all that can be said on Antietam. (I'm hard pressed to think of any historian who has done that for ANY Civil War battle.)

              I think the word "definitive" sprang up in this conversation as a result of my use of the word in the subtitle to my edition of Carman. Marketing cache aside, I used the term in its literal sense. Carman's manuscript represnets the sum total of his reserach into the battle--research which formed the basis of the "official narrative" of Antietam as constructed by the Battlefield Board, and which has served--on some level--as the basis for all subsequent histories of the fight.

              Consciously or not, everyone who writes on Antietam is in some way beginning with Carman. The govenrment's account of the battle--as expressed not only in print, but in the layout of Antietam National Battlefield itself, in what was presevred and what was omitted, what was foregrounded and what was relegated to the sidelines--is the narrative Carman constructed for them.

              Which is to say (a point I express in my introduction) that Carman's work has "defined" all subsequent research. It's the baseline to which others historians have either adhered or deviated--but, by definition, they have never worked in isolation from it.

              As for its flaws, I am the first to admit there are boths errors of fact and errors of interpretation in Carman's work. (So too with every history.)

              I go back to my use of the word "baseline." I for one would never argue that Carman's work (by which I refer to the sum of his inquiries into Antietam, of which the Maryland Campaign is but one expression) is (or ever intended to be) the "last" word on the subject. I would argue, however, that it is, if not the FIRST word, the most influential on the subsequent course of Antietam historiography.



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@...>
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:39:12 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

              Dear Joseph,

              I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
              which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
              of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
              carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
              veterans of both sides.

              Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
              was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
              literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
              muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
              training"!!! !), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
              facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
              to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
              about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
              is not without its flaws.

              Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
              titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg" , which can be purchased
              in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
              paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
              a very good source and containing much valuable information.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com>
              To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
              Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

              Dear Adam (and Gerry):

              There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

              It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
              was
              written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
              remains an
              unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
              the
              (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
              1,400
              page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
              pages;
              my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

              As for it being "less than definitive"- -well, it is THE narrative
              that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
              this
              day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
              say
              it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
              when
              standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
              modern
              work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
              interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
              Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
              battle
              ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
              of
              that statement.

              Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
              with
              everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
              coming to grips with his work at some point.

              Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
              an
              exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
              have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
              agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
              (though
              owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operation al
              study.

              I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
              otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
              people
              have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
              themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
              improve once he sees it. ;)

              --Joseph Pierro
              Hanover Co., Va.

              --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@. ..>
              wrote:
              >
              > Dear Adam,
              >
              > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
              > as
              less
              > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
              > Doctorate
              on
              > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
              > person
              > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
              >
              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > on
              > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > Union,
              a
              > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
              Almighty
              > God. --Anonymous
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@. ..>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
              > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
              >
              >
              > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
              > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
              > coming out
              > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "James W. Durney"
              > <JWD2044@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens"
              > > <clemenst@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
              > > > work
              on
              > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
              > > they
              would
              > be
              > > definitive. But very long.
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
              > > read
              > > some
              > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
              > > James
              > >
              >






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            • Stephen Recker
              I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back because he wasn t sure
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge
                Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back
                because he wasn't sure there was still going to be room for him. I
                checked it out and there is still plenty of room for folks who want to
                attend. I thought I would post a note here about it so that anyone else
                who wanted to go yet hadn't signed up might be assured that the
                opportunity has not passed.

                Info can be found at: www.chambersburgcivilwarseminars.org

                I'm particularly excited to go on John Hoptak's Final Assault walk. He
                says that he is going to go in an area little travelled. Ending, no
                doubt, with a long speech at the monument for the 48th PA ;-)

                Who else is going?

                Stephen Recker
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