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Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

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  • James W. Durney
    Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books? James
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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      Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

      James

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: gerry1952@...
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
      >
      >
      > Mike,
      >
      > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
      > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
      > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
      >
    • G E Mayers
      Dear James, The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not sure. Yr.
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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        Dear James,

        The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the
        publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not
        sure.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
        one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
        passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
        God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:27 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


        Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

        James

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: gerry1952@...
        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
        >
        >
        > Mike,
        >
        > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
        > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
        > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
        >
      • Thomas Clemens
        Yes, but he doesn t travel much. You d most likely need to call him and go to his house. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
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          Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him and go to his house.


          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College



          >>> "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> 04/08/07 8:27 PM >>>

          Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

          James

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: gerry1952@...
          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
          >
          >
          > Mike,
          >
          > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
          > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
          > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • James W. Durney
          ... and go to his house. ... Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to get them signed. James
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him
            and go to his house.
            >
            >
            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College

            Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to
            get them signed.

            James
          • joseph_pierro
            Dear Adam (and Gerry): There seems to be a little confusion about this book. It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was written soem
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 23, 2007
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              Dear Adam (and Gerry):

              There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

              It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was
              written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it remains an
              unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is the
              (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own 1,400
              page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of pages;
              my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

              As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
              that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to this
              day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to say
              it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted when
              standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a modern
              work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
              interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
              Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the battle
              ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth of
              that statement.

              Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree with
              everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
              coming to grips with his work at some point.

              Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been an
              exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
              have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
              agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants (though
              owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational study.

              I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
              otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five people
              have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
              themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
              improve once he sees it. ;)

              --Joseph Pierro
              Hanover Co., Va.

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Dear Adam,
              >
              > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as
              less
              > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate
              on
              > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
              > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
              >
              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
              > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union,
              a
              > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
              Almighty
              > God. --Anonymous
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
              >
              >
              > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
              > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
              > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
              on
              > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
              would
              > be
              > > definitive. But very long.
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
              > > some
              > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
              > >
              > > James
              > >
              >
            • G E Mayers
              Dear Joseph, I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian of the Battle of
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
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                Dear Joseph,

                I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                veterans of both sides.

                Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                training"!!!!), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                is not without its flaws.

                Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg", which can be purchased
                in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                was
                written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                remains an
                unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                the
                (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                1,400
                page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                pages;
                my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                this
                day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                say
                it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                when
                standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                modern
                work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                battle
                ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                of
                that statement.

                Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                with
                everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                coming to grips with his work at some point.

                Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                an
                exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                (though
                owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational
                study.

                I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                people
                have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                improve once he sees it. ;)

                --Joseph Pierro
                Hanover Co., Va.

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Dear Adam,
                >
                > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                > as
                less
                > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                > Doctorate
                on
                > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                > person
                > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on
                > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union,
                a
                > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                Almighty
                > God. --Anonymous
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                >
                >
                > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                > coming out
                > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney"
                > <JWD2044@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                > > <clemenst@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                > > > work
                on
                > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                > > they
                would
                > be
                > > definitive. But very long.
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                > > read
                > > some
                > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                > > James
                > >
                >
              • Joseph Pierro
                Dear Gerry: Please call me Jake. All my friends do. My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
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                  Dear Gerry:

                  Please call me Jake. All my friends do.

                  My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the "about to be published" Carman manuscript as "the definitive work.

                  Your statement in reply was something on the lines of "hardly definitive"--which I took as a remark upon my job of EDITING it. I see that you meant to refer to Carman's manuscript itself.

                  To which, I concur that Carman is HARDLY the last work on the subject. In fact, he owes (and openly acknowledges) quite a debt to Palfrey (quoting him verbatim and at length in many passages) and other contemporaries. In that regard, I am not aware of ANY author who has written all that can be said on Antietam. (I'm hard pressed to think of any historian who has done that for ANY Civil War battle.)

                  I think the word "definitive" sprang up in this conversation as a result of my use of the word in the subtitle to my edition of Carman. Marketing cache aside, I used the term in its literal sense. Carman's manuscript represnets the sum total of his reserach into the battle--research which formed the basis of the "official narrative" of Antietam as constructed by the Battlefield Board, and which has served--on some level--as the basis for all subsequent histories of the fight.

                  Consciously or not, everyone who writes on Antietam is in some way beginning with Carman. The govenrment's account of the battle--as expressed not only in print, but in the layout of Antietam National Battlefield itself, in what was presevred and what was omitted, what was foregrounded and what was relegated to the sidelines--is the narrative Carman constructed for them.

                  Which is to say (a point I express in my introduction) that Carman's work has "defined" all subsequent research. It's the baseline to which others historians have either adhered or deviated--but, by definition, they have never worked in isolation from it.

                  As for its flaws, I am the first to admit there are boths errors of fact and errors of interpretation in Carman's work. (So too with every history.)

                  I go back to my use of the word "baseline." I for one would never argue that Carman's work (by which I refer to the sum of his inquiries into Antietam, of which the Maryland Campaign is but one expression) is (or ever intended to be) the "last" word on the subject. I would argue, however, that it is, if not the FIRST word, the most influential on the subsequent course of Antietam historiography.



                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@...>
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:39:12 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                  Dear Joseph,

                  I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                  which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                  of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                  carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                  veterans of both sides.

                  Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                  was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                  literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                  muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                  training"!!! !), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                  facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                  to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                  about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                  is not without its flaws.

                  Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                  titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg" , which can be purchased
                  in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                  paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                  a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                  Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                  Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                  There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                  It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                  was
                  written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                  remains an
                  unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                  the
                  (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                  1,400
                  page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                  pages;
                  my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                  As for it being "less than definitive"- -well, it is THE narrative
                  that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                  this
                  day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                  say
                  it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                  when
                  standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                  modern
                  work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                  interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                  Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                  battle
                  ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                  of
                  that statement.

                  Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                  with
                  everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                  coming to grips with his work at some point.

                  Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                  an
                  exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                  have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                  agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                  (though
                  owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operation al
                  study.

                  I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                  otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                  people
                  have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                  themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                  improve once he sees it. ;)

                  --Joseph Pierro
                  Hanover Co., Va.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@. ..>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Adam,
                  >
                  > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                  > as
                  less
                  > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                  > Doctorate
                  on
                  > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                  > person
                  > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > on
                  > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > Union,
                  a
                  > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                  Almighty
                  > God. --Anonymous
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@. ..>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                  >
                  >
                  > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                  > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                  > coming out
                  > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "James W. Durney"
                  > <JWD2044@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens"
                  > > <clemenst@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                  > > > work
                  on
                  > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                  > > they
                  would
                  > be
                  > > definitive. But very long.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                  > > read
                  > > some
                  > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                  > > James
                  > >
                  >






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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Stephen Recker
                  I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back because he wasn t sure
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 2 5:38 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge
                    Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back
                    because he wasn't sure there was still going to be room for him. I
                    checked it out and there is still plenty of room for folks who want to
                    attend. I thought I would post a note here about it so that anyone else
                    who wanted to go yet hadn't signed up might be assured that the
                    opportunity has not passed.

                    Info can be found at: www.chambersburgcivilwarseminars.org

                    I'm particularly excited to go on John Hoptak's Final Assault walk. He
                    says that he is going to go in an area little travelled. Ending, no
                    doubt, with a long speech at the monument for the 48th PA ;-)

                    Who else is going?

                    Stephen Recker
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