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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

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  • mfitz54@aol.com
    I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen s writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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      I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about how he
      wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work would have been
      a major source.
      How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.

      Mike Fitzpatrick


      -----Original Message-----
      From: azimmerli@...
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


      I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
      definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
      this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
      > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
      be
      > definitive. But very long.
      > >
      > >
      >
      > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
      > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
      >
      > James
      >



      ________________________________________________________________________
      AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • G E Mayers
      Mike, Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete his project on
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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        Mike,

        Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
        complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
        his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
        one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
        passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
        God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <mfitz54@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


        >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
        >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
        >He did talk about how he
        > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
        > would have been
        > a major source.
        > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
        >
        > Mike Fitzpatrick
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: azimmerli@...
        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
        >
        >
        > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
        > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
        > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
        > wrote:
        >>
        >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
        >> wrote:
        >> >
        >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
        >> > on
        >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
        >> would
        > be
        >> definitive. But very long.
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
        >> some
        >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
        >>
        >> James
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
        > free from AOL at AOL.com.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Adam, The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on an
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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          Dear Adam,

          The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less
          than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on
          an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
          qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
          one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
          passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
          God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


          I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
          definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
          this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
          > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
          be
          > definitive. But very long.
          > >
          > >
          >
          > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
          > some
          > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
          >
          > James
          >
        • mfitz54@aol.com
          Thank you. I m very sorry to hear that. Mike ... From: gerry1952@verizon.net To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM Subject: Re:
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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            Thank you. I'm very sorry to hear that.

            Mike

            -----Original Message-----
            From: gerry1952@...
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


            Mike,

            Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
            complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
            his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
            one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
            passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
            God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <mfitz54@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

            >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
            >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
            >He did talk about how he
            > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
            > would have been
            > a major source.
            > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
            >
            > Mike Fitzpatrick
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: azimmerli@...
            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
            >
            >
            > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
            > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
            > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
            > wrote:
            >>
            >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
            >> wrote:
            >> >
            >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
            >> > on
            >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
            >> would
            > be
            >> definitive. But very long.
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
            >> some
            >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
            >>
            >> James
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________________
            > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
            > free from AOL at AOL.com.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            ________________________________________________________________________
            AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James W. Durney
            Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books? James
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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              Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

              James

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: gerry1952@...
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
              >
              >
              > Mike,
              >
              > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
              > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
              > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
              >
            • G E Mayers
              Dear James, The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not sure. Yr.
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                Dear James,

                The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the
                publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not
                sure.

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:27 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                James

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: gerry1952@...
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                >
                >
                > Mike,
                >
                > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                >
              • Thomas Clemens
                Yes, but he doesn t travel much. You d most likely need to call him and go to his house. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
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                  Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him and go to his house.


                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College



                  >>> "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> 04/08/07 8:27 PM >>>

                  Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                  James

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: gerry1952@...
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                  >
                  >
                  > Mike,
                  >
                  > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                  > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                  > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James W. Durney
                  ... and go to his house. ... Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to get them signed. James
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
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                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him
                    and go to his house.
                    >
                    >
                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College

                    Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to
                    get them signed.

                    James
                  • joseph_pierro
                    Dear Adam (and Gerry): There seems to be a little confusion about this book. It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was written soem
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 23, 2007
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                      Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                      There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                      It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was
                      written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it remains an
                      unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is the
                      (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own 1,400
                      page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of pages;
                      my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                      As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                      that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to this
                      day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to say
                      it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted when
                      standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a modern
                      work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                      interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                      Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the battle
                      ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth of
                      that statement.

                      Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree with
                      everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                      coming to grips with his work at some point.

                      Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been an
                      exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                      have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                      agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants (though
                      owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational study.

                      I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                      otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five people
                      have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                      themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                      improve once he sees it. ;)

                      --Joseph Pierro
                      Hanover Co., Va.

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Adam,
                      >
                      > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as
                      less
                      > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate
                      on
                      > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
                      > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >
                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                      > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union,
                      a
                      > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                      Almighty
                      > God. --Anonymous
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                      >
                      >
                      > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                      > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                      > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                      on
                      > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                      would
                      > be
                      > > definitive. But very long.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                      > > some
                      > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                      > >
                      > > James
                      > >
                      >
                    • G E Mayers
                      Dear Joseph, I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian of the Battle of
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
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                        Dear Joseph,

                        I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                        which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                        of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                        carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                        veterans of both sides.

                        Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                        was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                        literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                        muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                        training"!!!!), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                        facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                        to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                        about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                        is not without its flaws.

                        Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                        titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg", which can be purchased
                        in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                        paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                        a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                        Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                        There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                        It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                        was
                        written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                        remains an
                        unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                        the
                        (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                        1,400
                        page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                        pages;
                        my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                        As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                        that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                        this
                        day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                        say
                        it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                        when
                        standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                        modern
                        work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                        interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                        Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                        battle
                        ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                        of
                        that statement.

                        Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                        with
                        everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                        coming to grips with his work at some point.

                        Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                        an
                        exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                        have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                        agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                        (though
                        owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational
                        study.

                        I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                        otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                        people
                        have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                        themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                        improve once he sees it. ;)

                        --Joseph Pierro
                        Hanover Co., Va.

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Adam,
                        >
                        > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                        > as
                        less
                        > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                        > Doctorate
                        on
                        > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                        > person
                        > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                        >
                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > on
                        > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > Union,
                        a
                        > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                        Almighty
                        > God. --Anonymous
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                        >
                        >
                        > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                        > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                        > coming out
                        > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney"
                        > <JWD2044@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                        > > <clemenst@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                        > > > work
                        on
                        > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                        > > they
                        would
                        > be
                        > > definitive. But very long.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                        > > read
                        > > some
                        > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                        > > James
                        > >
                        >
                      • Joseph Pierro
                        Dear Gerry: Please call me Jake. All my friends do. My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
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                          Dear Gerry:

                          Please call me Jake. All my friends do.

                          My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the "about to be published" Carman manuscript as "the definitive work.

                          Your statement in reply was something on the lines of "hardly definitive"--which I took as a remark upon my job of EDITING it. I see that you meant to refer to Carman's manuscript itself.

                          To which, I concur that Carman is HARDLY the last work on the subject. In fact, he owes (and openly acknowledges) quite a debt to Palfrey (quoting him verbatim and at length in many passages) and other contemporaries. In that regard, I am not aware of ANY author who has written all that can be said on Antietam. (I'm hard pressed to think of any historian who has done that for ANY Civil War battle.)

                          I think the word "definitive" sprang up in this conversation as a result of my use of the word in the subtitle to my edition of Carman. Marketing cache aside, I used the term in its literal sense. Carman's manuscript represnets the sum total of his reserach into the battle--research which formed the basis of the "official narrative" of Antietam as constructed by the Battlefield Board, and which has served--on some level--as the basis for all subsequent histories of the fight.

                          Consciously or not, everyone who writes on Antietam is in some way beginning with Carman. The govenrment's account of the battle--as expressed not only in print, but in the layout of Antietam National Battlefield itself, in what was presevred and what was omitted, what was foregrounded and what was relegated to the sidelines--is the narrative Carman constructed for them.

                          Which is to say (a point I express in my introduction) that Carman's work has "defined" all subsequent research. It's the baseline to which others historians have either adhered or deviated--but, by definition, they have never worked in isolation from it.

                          As for its flaws, I am the first to admit there are boths errors of fact and errors of interpretation in Carman's work. (So too with every history.)

                          I go back to my use of the word "baseline." I for one would never argue that Carman's work (by which I refer to the sum of his inquiries into Antietam, of which the Maryland Campaign is but one expression) is (or ever intended to be) the "last" word on the subject. I would argue, however, that it is, if not the FIRST word, the most influential on the subsequent course of Antietam historiography.



                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@...>
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:39:12 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                          Dear Joseph,

                          I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                          which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                          of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                          carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                          veterans of both sides.

                          Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                          was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                          literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                          muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                          training"!!! !), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                          facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                          to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                          about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                          is not without its flaws.

                          Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                          titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg" , which can be purchased
                          in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                          paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                          a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                          Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                          Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                          There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                          It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                          was
                          written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                          remains an
                          unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                          the
                          (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                          1,400
                          page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                          pages;
                          my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                          As for it being "less than definitive"- -well, it is THE narrative
                          that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                          this
                          day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                          say
                          it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                          when
                          standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                          modern
                          work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                          interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                          Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                          battle
                          ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                          of
                          that statement.

                          Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                          with
                          everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                          coming to grips with his work at some point.

                          Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                          an
                          exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                          have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                          agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                          (though
                          owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operation al
                          study.

                          I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                          otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                          people
                          have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                          themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                          improve once he sees it. ;)

                          --Joseph Pierro
                          Hanover Co., Va.

                          --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@. ..>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Adam,
                          >
                          > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                          > as
                          less
                          > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                          > Doctorate
                          on
                          > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                          > person
                          > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                          >
                          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          >
                          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          > on
                          > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          > Union,
                          a
                          > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                          Almighty
                          > God. --Anonymous
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@. ..>
                          > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                          > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                          >
                          >
                          > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                          > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                          > coming out
                          > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "James W. Durney"
                          > <JWD2044@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          > > <clemenst@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                          > > > work
                          on
                          > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                          > > they
                          would
                          > be
                          > > definitive. But very long.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                          > > read
                          > > some
                          > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                          > > James
                          > >
                          >






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                        • Stephen Recker
                          I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back because he wasn t sure
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 2 5:38 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge
                            Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back
                            because he wasn't sure there was still going to be room for him. I
                            checked it out and there is still plenty of room for folks who want to
                            attend. I thought I would post a note here about it so that anyone else
                            who wanted to go yet hadn't signed up might be assured that the
                            opportunity has not passed.

                            Info can be found at: www.chambersburgcivilwarseminars.org

                            I'm particularly excited to go on John Hoptak's Final Assault walk. He
                            says that he is going to go in an area little travelled. Ending, no
                            doubt, with a long speech at the monument for the 48th PA ;-)

                            Who else is going?

                            Stephen Recker
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