Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

Expand Messages
  • Adam Zimmerli
    I have to say I m a fan of Joe Harsh s trilogy, but as far as a definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman s study will be coming out this summer (at a thousand
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
      definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
      this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
      > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
      be
      > definitive. But very long.
      > >
      > >
      >
      > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
      > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
      >
      > James
      >
    • mfitz54@aol.com
      I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen s writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about how he
        wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work would have been
        a major source.
        How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.

        Mike Fitzpatrick


        -----Original Message-----
        From: azimmerli@...
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


        I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
        definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
        this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
        > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
        be
        > definitive. But very long.
        > >
        > >
        >
        > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
        > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
        >
        > James
        >



        ________________________________________________________________________
        AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G E Mayers
        Mike, Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete his project on
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Mike,

          Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
          complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
          his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
          one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
          passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
          God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <mfitz54@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


          >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
          >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
          >He did talk about how he
          > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
          > would have been
          > a major source.
          > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
          >
          > Mike Fitzpatrick
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: azimmerli@...
          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
          >
          >
          > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
          > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
          > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
          > wrote:
          >>
          >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
          >> wrote:
          >> >
          >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
          >> > on
          >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
          >> would
          > be
          >> definitive. But very long.
          >> >
          >> >
          >>
          >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
          >> some
          >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
          >>
          >> James
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________________________________________________
          > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
          > free from AOL at AOL.com.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • G E Mayers
          Dear Adam, The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on an
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Adam,

            The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less
            than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on
            an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
            qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
            one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
            passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
            God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


            I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
            definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
            this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
            > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
            be
            > definitive. But very long.
            > >
            > >
            >
            > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
            > some
            > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
            >
            > James
            >
          • mfitz54@aol.com
            Thank you. I m very sorry to hear that. Mike ... From: gerry1952@verizon.net To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM Subject: Re:
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank you. I'm very sorry to hear that.

              Mike

              -----Original Message-----
              From: gerry1952@...
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


              Mike,

              Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
              complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
              his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
              one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
              passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
              God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <mfitz54@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

              >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
              >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
              >He did talk about how he
              > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
              > would have been
              > a major source.
              > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
              >
              > Mike Fitzpatrick
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: azimmerli@...
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
              >
              >
              > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
              > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
              > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
              > wrote:
              >>
              >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
              >> wrote:
              >> >
              >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
              >> > on
              >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
              >> would
              > be
              >> definitive. But very long.
              >> >
              >> >
              >>
              >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
              >> some
              >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
              >>
              >> James
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________________
              > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
              > free from AOL at AOL.com.
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >



              ________________________________________________________________________
              AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James W. Durney
              Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books? James
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                James

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: gerry1952@...
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                >
                >
                > Mike,
                >
                > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                >
              • G E Mayers
                Dear James, The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not sure. Yr.
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear James,

                  The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the
                  publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not
                  sure.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                  one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                  passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                  God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:27 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                  Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                  James

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: gerry1952@...
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                  >
                  >
                  > Mike,
                  >
                  > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                  > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                  > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                  >
                • Thomas Clemens
                  Yes, but he doesn t travel much. You d most likely need to call him and go to his house. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him and go to his house.


                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College



                    >>> "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> 04/08/07 8:27 PM >>>

                    Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                    James

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: gerry1952@...
                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                    >
                    >
                    > Mike,
                    >
                    > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                    > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                    > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • James W. Durney
                    ... and go to his house. ... Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to get them signed. James
                    Message 9 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him
                      and go to his house.
                      >
                      >
                      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > Professor of History
                      > Hagerstown Community College

                      Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to
                      get them signed.

                      James
                    • joseph_pierro
                      Dear Adam (and Gerry): There seems to be a little confusion about this book. It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was written soem
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 23, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                        There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                        It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was
                        written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it remains an
                        unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is the
                        (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own 1,400
                        page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of pages;
                        my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                        As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                        that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to this
                        day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to say
                        it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted when
                        standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a modern
                        work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                        interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                        Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the battle
                        ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth of
                        that statement.

                        Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree with
                        everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                        coming to grips with his work at some point.

                        Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been an
                        exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                        have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                        agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants (though
                        owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational study.

                        I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                        otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five people
                        have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                        themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                        improve once he sees it. ;)

                        --Joseph Pierro
                        Hanover Co., Va.

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Adam,
                        >
                        > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as
                        less
                        > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate
                        on
                        > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
                        > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                        >
                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                        > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union,
                        a
                        > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                        Almighty
                        > God. --Anonymous
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                        >
                        >
                        > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                        > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                        > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                        on
                        > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                        would
                        > be
                        > > definitive. But very long.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                        > > some
                        > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                        > >
                        > > James
                        > >
                        >
                      • G E Mayers
                        Dear Joseph, I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian of the Battle of
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Joseph,

                          I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                          which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                          of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                          carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                          veterans of both sides.

                          Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                          was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                          literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                          muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                          training"!!!!), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                          facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                          to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                          about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                          is not without its flaws.

                          Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                          titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg", which can be purchased
                          in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                          paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                          a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                          Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                          There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                          It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                          was
                          written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                          remains an
                          unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                          the
                          (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                          1,400
                          page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                          pages;
                          my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                          As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                          that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                          this
                          day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                          say
                          it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                          when
                          standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                          modern
                          work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                          interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                          Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                          battle
                          ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                          of
                          that statement.

                          Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                          with
                          everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                          coming to grips with his work at some point.

                          Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                          an
                          exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                          have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                          agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                          (though
                          owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational
                          study.

                          I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                          otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                          people
                          have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                          themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                          improve once he sees it. ;)

                          --Joseph Pierro
                          Hanover Co., Va.

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Adam,
                          >
                          > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                          > as
                          less
                          > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                          > Doctorate
                          on
                          > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                          > person
                          > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                          >
                          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          >
                          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          > on
                          > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          > Union,
                          a
                          > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                          Almighty
                          > God. --Anonymous
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                          >
                          >
                          > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                          > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                          > coming out
                          > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney"
                          > <JWD2044@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          > > <clemenst@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                          > > > work
                          on
                          > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                          > > they
                          would
                          > be
                          > > definitive. But very long.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                          > > read
                          > > some
                          > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                          > > James
                          > >
                          >
                        • Joseph Pierro
                          Dear Gerry: Please call me Jake. All my friends do. My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Gerry:

                            Please call me Jake. All my friends do.

                            My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the "about to be published" Carman manuscript as "the definitive work.

                            Your statement in reply was something on the lines of "hardly definitive"--which I took as a remark upon my job of EDITING it. I see that you meant to refer to Carman's manuscript itself.

                            To which, I concur that Carman is HARDLY the last work on the subject. In fact, he owes (and openly acknowledges) quite a debt to Palfrey (quoting him verbatim and at length in many passages) and other contemporaries. In that regard, I am not aware of ANY author who has written all that can be said on Antietam. (I'm hard pressed to think of any historian who has done that for ANY Civil War battle.)

                            I think the word "definitive" sprang up in this conversation as a result of my use of the word in the subtitle to my edition of Carman. Marketing cache aside, I used the term in its literal sense. Carman's manuscript represnets the sum total of his reserach into the battle--research which formed the basis of the "official narrative" of Antietam as constructed by the Battlefield Board, and which has served--on some level--as the basis for all subsequent histories of the fight.

                            Consciously or not, everyone who writes on Antietam is in some way beginning with Carman. The govenrment's account of the battle--as expressed not only in print, but in the layout of Antietam National Battlefield itself, in what was presevred and what was omitted, what was foregrounded and what was relegated to the sidelines--is the narrative Carman constructed for them.

                            Which is to say (a point I express in my introduction) that Carman's work has "defined" all subsequent research. It's the baseline to which others historians have either adhered or deviated--but, by definition, they have never worked in isolation from it.

                            As for its flaws, I am the first to admit there are boths errors of fact and errors of interpretation in Carman's work. (So too with every history.)

                            I go back to my use of the word "baseline." I for one would never argue that Carman's work (by which I refer to the sum of his inquiries into Antietam, of which the Maryland Campaign is but one expression) is (or ever intended to be) the "last" word on the subject. I would argue, however, that it is, if not the FIRST word, the most influential on the subsequent course of Antietam historiography.



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@...>
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:39:12 PM
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                            Dear Joseph,

                            I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                            which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                            of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                            carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                            veterans of both sides.

                            Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                            was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                            literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                            muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                            training"!!! !), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                            facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                            to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                            about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                            is not without its flaws.

                            Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                            titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg" , which can be purchased
                            in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                            paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                            a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                            Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                            Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                            There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                            It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                            was
                            written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                            remains an
                            unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                            the
                            (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                            1,400
                            page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                            pages;
                            my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                            As for it being "less than definitive"- -well, it is THE narrative
                            that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                            this
                            day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                            say
                            it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                            when
                            standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                            modern
                            work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                            interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                            Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                            battle
                            ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                            of
                            that statement.

                            Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                            with
                            everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                            coming to grips with his work at some point.

                            Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                            an
                            exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                            have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                            agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                            (though
                            owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operation al
                            study.

                            I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                            otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                            people
                            have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                            themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                            improve once he sees it. ;)

                            --Joseph Pierro
                            Hanover Co., Va.

                            --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@. ..>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Adam,
                            >
                            > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                            > as
                            less
                            > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                            > Doctorate
                            on
                            > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                            > person
                            > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                            >
                            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            >
                            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            > on
                            > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            > Union,
                            a
                            > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                            Almighty
                            > God. --Anonymous
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@. ..>
                            > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                            > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                            >
                            >
                            > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                            > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                            > coming out
                            > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "James W. Durney"
                            > <JWD2044@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens"
                            > > <clemenst@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                            > > > work
                            on
                            > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                            > > they
                            would
                            > be
                            > > definitive. But very long.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                            > > read
                            > > some
                            > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                            > > James
                            > >
                            >






                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                            We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
                            (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
                            http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Stephen Recker
                            I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back because he wasn t sure
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge
                              Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back
                              because he wasn't sure there was still going to be room for him. I
                              checked it out and there is still plenty of room for folks who want to
                              attend. I thought I would post a note here about it so that anyone else
                              who wanted to go yet hadn't signed up might be assured that the
                              opportunity has not passed.

                              Info can be found at: www.chambersburgcivilwarseminars.org

                              I'm particularly excited to go on John Hoptak's Final Assault walk. He
                              says that he is going to go in an area little travelled. Ending, no
                              doubt, with a long speech at the monument for the 48th PA ;-)

                              Who else is going?

                              Stephen Recker
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.