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Re: [TalkAntietam] Off topic posting reminder

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  • robert blama
    I agree, I ususally dont say much
    Message 1 of 29 , Mar 11, 2007
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      I agree, I ususally dont say much< i just listend and pick up great info but I want it concentrated on Antietam, Would discuss other topics in another forum.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Brian Downey
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:45 AM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Off topic posting reminder


      Greetings friends,

      The recent discussion topic about slavery is well outside the scope
      and charter of this goup. Besides, you all know where it'll go...

      Not that it isn't an important subject, or that we don't all have a
      right to say what we think, just that the conversation belongs elsewhere.

      I'd be happy to point the interested to other internet groups which
      are appropriate for that subject. I'd also be glad to have private
      email from anyone who'd like to talk about it further.

      Thanks,
      Brian





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Adam Zimmerli
      I have to say I m a fan of Joe Harsh s trilogy, but as far as a definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman s study will be coming out this summer (at a thousand
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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        I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
        definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
        this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
        > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
        be
        > definitive. But very long.
        > >
        > >
        >
        > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
        > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
        >
        > James
        >
      • mfitz54@aol.com
        I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen s writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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          I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about how he
          wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work would have been
          a major source.
          How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.

          Mike Fitzpatrick


          -----Original Message-----
          From: azimmerli@...
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


          I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
          definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
          this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
          > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
          be
          > definitive. But very long.
          > >
          > >
          >
          > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
          > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
          >
          > James
          >



          ________________________________________________________________________
          AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • G E Mayers
          Mike, Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete his project on
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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            Mike,

            Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
            complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
            his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
            one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
            passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
            God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <mfitz54@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


            >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
            >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
            >He did talk about how he
            > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
            > would have been
            > a major source.
            > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
            >
            > Mike Fitzpatrick
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: azimmerli@...
            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
            >
            >
            > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
            > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
            > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
            > wrote:
            >>
            >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
            >> wrote:
            >> >
            >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
            >> > on
            >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
            >> would
            > be
            >> definitive. But very long.
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
            >> some
            >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
            >>
            >> James
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________________________________________________
            > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
            > free from AOL at AOL.com.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Adam, The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on an
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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              Dear Adam,

              The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less
              than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on
              an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
              qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
              one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
              passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
              God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


              I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
              definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
              this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
              > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
              be
              > definitive. But very long.
              > >
              > >
              >
              > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
              > some
              > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
              >
              > James
              >
            • mfitz54@aol.com
              Thank you. I m very sorry to hear that. Mike ... From: gerry1952@verizon.net To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM Subject: Re:
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                Thank you. I'm very sorry to hear that.

                Mike

                -----Original Message-----
                From: gerry1952@...
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                Mike,

                Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <mfitz54@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
                >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
                >He did talk about how he
                > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
                > would have been
                > a major source.
                > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
                >
                > Mike Fitzpatrick
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: azimmerli@...
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                >
                >
                > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                > wrote:
                >>
                >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                >> wrote:
                >> >
                >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                >> > on
                >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                >> would
                > be
                >> definitive. But very long.
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                >> some
                >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                >>
                >> James
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________________________________
                > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                > free from AOL at AOL.com.
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                ________________________________________________________________________
                AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James W. Durney
                Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books? James
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                  Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                  James

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: gerry1952@...
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                  >
                  >
                  > Mike,
                  >
                  > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                  > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                  > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                  >
                • G E Mayers
                  Dear James, The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not sure. Yr.
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                    Dear James,

                    The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the
                    publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not
                    sure.

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                    one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                    passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                    God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:27 PM
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                    Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                    James

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: gerry1952@...
                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                    >
                    >
                    > Mike,
                    >
                    > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                    > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                    > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                    >
                  • Thomas Clemens
                    Yes, but he doesn t travel much. You d most likely need to call him and go to his house. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community
                    Message 9 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
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                      Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him and go to his house.


                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College



                      >>> "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> 04/08/07 8:27 PM >>>

                      Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                      James

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: gerry1952@...
                      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                      >
                      >
                      > Mike,
                      >
                      > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                      > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                      > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • James W. Durney
                      ... and go to his house. ... Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to get them signed. James
                      Message 10 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him
                        and go to his house.
                        >
                        >
                        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > Professor of History
                        > Hagerstown Community College

                        Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to
                        get them signed.

                        James
                      • joseph_pierro
                        Dear Adam (and Gerry): There seems to be a little confusion about this book. It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was written soem
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 23, 2007
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                          Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                          There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                          It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was
                          written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it remains an
                          unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is the
                          (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own 1,400
                          page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of pages;
                          my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                          As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                          that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to this
                          day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to say
                          it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted when
                          standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a modern
                          work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                          interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                          Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the battle
                          ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth of
                          that statement.

                          Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree with
                          everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                          coming to grips with his work at some point.

                          Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been an
                          exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                          have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                          agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants (though
                          owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational study.

                          I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                          otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five people
                          have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                          themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                          improve once he sees it. ;)

                          --Joseph Pierro
                          Hanover Co., Va.

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Adam,
                          >
                          > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as
                          less
                          > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate
                          on
                          > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
                          > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                          >
                          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          >
                          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                          > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union,
                          a
                          > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                          Almighty
                          > God. --Anonymous
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                          >
                          >
                          > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                          > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                          > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                          on
                          > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                          would
                          > be
                          > > definitive. But very long.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                          > > some
                          > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                          > >
                          > > James
                          > >
                          >
                        • G E Mayers
                          Dear Joseph, I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian of the Battle of
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
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                            Dear Joseph,

                            I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                            which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                            of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                            carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                            veterans of both sides.

                            Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                            was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                            literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                            muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                            training"!!!!), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                            facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                            to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                            about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                            is not without its flaws.

                            Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                            titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg", which can be purchased
                            in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                            paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                            a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                            Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                            There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                            It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                            was
                            written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                            remains an
                            unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                            the
                            (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                            1,400
                            page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                            pages;
                            my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                            As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                            that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                            this
                            day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                            say
                            it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                            when
                            standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                            modern
                            work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                            interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                            Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                            battle
                            ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                            of
                            that statement.

                            Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                            with
                            everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                            coming to grips with his work at some point.

                            Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                            an
                            exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                            have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                            agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                            (though
                            owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational
                            study.

                            I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                            otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                            people
                            have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                            themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                            improve once he sees it. ;)

                            --Joseph Pierro
                            Hanover Co., Va.

                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Adam,
                            >
                            > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                            > as
                            less
                            > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                            > Doctorate
                            on
                            > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                            > person
                            > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                            >
                            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            >
                            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            > on
                            > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            > Union,
                            a
                            > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                            Almighty
                            > God. --Anonymous
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                            >
                            >
                            > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                            > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                            > coming out
                            > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney"
                            > <JWD2044@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                            > > <clemenst@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                            > > > work
                            on
                            > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                            > > they
                            would
                            > be
                            > > definitive. But very long.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                            > > read
                            > > some
                            > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                            > > James
                            > >
                            >
                          • Joseph Pierro
                            Dear Gerry: Please call me Jake. All my friends do. My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
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                              Dear Gerry:

                              Please call me Jake. All my friends do.

                              My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the "about to be published" Carman manuscript as "the definitive work.

                              Your statement in reply was something on the lines of "hardly definitive"--which I took as a remark upon my job of EDITING it. I see that you meant to refer to Carman's manuscript itself.

                              To which, I concur that Carman is HARDLY the last work on the subject. In fact, he owes (and openly acknowledges) quite a debt to Palfrey (quoting him verbatim and at length in many passages) and other contemporaries. In that regard, I am not aware of ANY author who has written all that can be said on Antietam. (I'm hard pressed to think of any historian who has done that for ANY Civil War battle.)

                              I think the word "definitive" sprang up in this conversation as a result of my use of the word in the subtitle to my edition of Carman. Marketing cache aside, I used the term in its literal sense. Carman's manuscript represnets the sum total of his reserach into the battle--research which formed the basis of the "official narrative" of Antietam as constructed by the Battlefield Board, and which has served--on some level--as the basis for all subsequent histories of the fight.

                              Consciously or not, everyone who writes on Antietam is in some way beginning with Carman. The govenrment's account of the battle--as expressed not only in print, but in the layout of Antietam National Battlefield itself, in what was presevred and what was omitted, what was foregrounded and what was relegated to the sidelines--is the narrative Carman constructed for them.

                              Which is to say (a point I express in my introduction) that Carman's work has "defined" all subsequent research. It's the baseline to which others historians have either adhered or deviated--but, by definition, they have never worked in isolation from it.

                              As for its flaws, I am the first to admit there are boths errors of fact and errors of interpretation in Carman's work. (So too with every history.)

                              I go back to my use of the word "baseline." I for one would never argue that Carman's work (by which I refer to the sum of his inquiries into Antietam, of which the Maryland Campaign is but one expression) is (or ever intended to be) the "last" word on the subject. I would argue, however, that it is, if not the FIRST word, the most influential on the subsequent course of Antietam historiography.



                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@...>
                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:39:12 PM
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                              Dear Joseph,

                              I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                              which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                              of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                              carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                              veterans of both sides.

                              Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                              was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                              literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                              muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                              training"!!! !), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                              facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                              to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                              about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                              is not without its flaws.

                              Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                              titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg" , which can be purchased
                              in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                              paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                              a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                              Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                              Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                              There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                              It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                              was
                              written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                              remains an
                              unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                              the
                              (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                              1,400
                              page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                              pages;
                              my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                              As for it being "less than definitive"- -well, it is THE narrative
                              that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                              this
                              day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                              say
                              it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                              when
                              standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                              modern
                              work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                              interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                              Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                              battle
                              ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                              of
                              that statement.

                              Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                              with
                              everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                              coming to grips with his work at some point.

                              Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                              an
                              exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                              have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                              agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                              (though
                              owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operation al
                              study.

                              I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                              otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                              people
                              have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                              themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                              improve once he sees it. ;)

                              --Joseph Pierro
                              Hanover Co., Va.

                              --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@. ..>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Adam,
                              >
                              > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                              > as
                              less
                              > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                              > Doctorate
                              on
                              > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                              > person
                              > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                              >
                              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                              >
                              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              > on
                              > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              > Union,
                              a
                              > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                              Almighty
                              > God. --Anonymous
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@. ..>
                              > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                              > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                              >
                              >
                              > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                              > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                              > coming out
                              > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                              >
                              > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "James W. Durney"
                              > <JWD2044@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens"
                              > > <clemenst@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                              > > > work
                              on
                              > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                              > > they
                              would
                              > be
                              > > definitive. But very long.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                              > > read
                              > > some
                              > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                              > > James
                              > >
                              >






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                            • Stephen Recker
                              I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back because he wasn t sure
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge
                                Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back
                                because he wasn't sure there was still going to be room for him. I
                                checked it out and there is still plenty of room for folks who want to
                                attend. I thought I would post a note here about it so that anyone else
                                who wanted to go yet hadn't signed up might be assured that the
                                opportunity has not passed.

                                Info can be found at: www.chambersburgcivilwarseminars.org

                                I'm particularly excited to go on John Hoptak's Final Assault walk. He
                                says that he is going to go in an area little travelled. Ending, no
                                doubt, with a long speech at the monument for the 48th PA ;-)

                                Who else is going?

                                Stephen Recker
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