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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Added Upon/New Member

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  • T.R.Livesey
    ... This tiger by the tail thing is a bunch of nonsense. None of the major conflicts over slavery were about slavery in the south; it was all about slavery
    Message 1 of 29 , Mar 9, 2007
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      On Thu Mar 8 0:57 , 'Quentin Holt' que182001@...> sent:

      >--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey wrote:
      >>
      >To T.R. Livesey and All:
      >
      >
      >Do you know that all 13 of the original states of the United States
      >were slave states when the Constitution was ratified? Some of them,
      >like the New England and mid-Atlantic states later abolished slavery
      >by state law. Many people in the South did not like slavery either,
      >but what were they going to do? It was like having a tiger by the
      >tail. You wish that you didn't, but you don't dare let go. It was
      >unsettling to say the least. Generally speaking, I think that we
      >should be very cautious about judging people of one era of history by
      >the standards of a later era. We can only guess what people a
      >century and a half from now will think of us.

      This 'tiger by the tail' thing is a bunch of nonsense. None of the major
      conflicts over slavery were about slavery in the south; it was all about slavery
      in the west (Missouri Compromise, Kansas-Nebraska, etc), slavery in the north
      (Dred Scott) and slavery in the Capital. No matter how ‘dangerous’, volatile, or
      explosive slavery might be, its supporters were bent on spreading it to every
      region of the country. Lincoln made this argument in his debates with Douglas:
      if a man had something dangerous, toxic, and explosive in your in one part of
      your house, why would you want to spread it everywhere in your house? If you
      bought a new house, why would you bring the dangerous, explosive, toxic thing
      into the new house? And if some of the toxic substance leaked onto your
      neighbor’s property, why would you demand a law that made your neighbor obligated
      to help you scoop up the toxic substance and bring it back to your house? If you
      tolerate something only because you don’t know what to do with it, your don’t
      turn around and try to grow it and make it flourish.

      That aside, the historical record proves that slavery was not a tiger by the
      tail. After all, emancipation eventually did happen, and the tiger got let go.
      There were no widespread reprisals of blacks on whites, except in the imagination
      of the authors of "Birth of a Nation".

      As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you saying that
      respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th century? They
      lived under 'all men are created equal', just like we do. I think if the George
      Wallaces of the world thought a little bit less about their immediate interests
      and a little more about how the future will judge them, the world would be a much
      better place.


      >
      >
      >In our day I look around me and I think I can see the "curious
      >institution" of slavery returning in another form. Is it not a form
      >of slavery when one must work from January 2 until a late May or
      >June "Tax Freedom Day" just to pay his or her federal, state, and
      >local taxes? Then one can have the rest of the year's income to
      >support self, family, and church. Here in King County, Washington,
      >we have a County Executive and a majority on the County Council who,
      >like other "liberals," have the attitude that people like Iris and I
      >exist only to provide limitless revenue for every fool boondoggle and
      >government extravagance that their fertile minds can imagine. As if
      >we had it!
      >

      We don't discuss modern politics in this group.

      T.R. Livesey
      tlivesey@...
    • James W. Durney
      ... saying that ... century? TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a resounding YES . Read The Harp and the Eagle by Susannah Ural
      Message 2 of 29 , Mar 9, 2007
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        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you
        saying that
        > respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th
        century?

        TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a
        resounding 'YES'. Read "The Harp and the Eagle" by Susannah Ural
        Bruce. BTW, the Germans were not a great deal better off bur that side
        of my family didn't come to America until after the war.

        James
      • T.R.Livesey
        Aspiring to something is different than actually practising it. Or, failing in something doesn t mean you never meant to succeed. Atrocities continue to the
        Message 3 of 29 , Mar 9, 2007
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          Aspiring to something is different than actually practising it. Or, failing in
          something doesn't mean you never meant to succeed. Atrocities continue to the
          present day, and probably will continue forever. Does that prove that there is no
          such thing as respect for human dignity?

          T.R. Livesey
          tlivesey@...

          On Fri Mar 9 18:26 , 'James W. Durney' <JWD2044@...> sent:

          >--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >> As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you
          >saying that
          >> respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th
          >century?
          >
          >TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a
          >resounding 'YES'. Read "The Harp and the Eagle" by Susannah Ural
          >Bruce. BTW, the Germans were not a great deal better off bur that side
          >of my family didn't come to America until after the war.
          >
          >James
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
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        • Mark Holt
          Human dignity was a big thing in the 19th century. Many slaves were treated not only with dignity but with love. This was especially true in relationships in
          Message 4 of 29 , Mar 10, 2007
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            Human dignity was a big thing in the 19th century. Many slaves were treated not only with dignity but with love. This was especially true in relationships in which only one or a very few slaves belonged to a family. People who were mean to slaves were, more often than not, just mean in general. A person who was good to slaves was, more often than not, good to animals, family, and neighbors.

            I believe that, when I come before God's judgment, my being a non-slave-owner will be of minor import. What will really matter is how I treated all people around me.

            "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> wrote:
            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you
            saying that
            > respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th
            century?

            TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a
            resounding 'YES'. Read "The Harp and the Eagle" by Susannah Ural
            Bruce. BTW, the Germans were not a great deal better off bur that side
            of my family didn't come to America until after the war.

            James








            test'; ">

            ---------------------------------
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            See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.

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          • Brian Downey
            Greetings friends, The recent discussion topic about slavery is well outside the scope and charter of this goup. Besides, you all know where it ll go... Not
            Message 5 of 29 , Mar 10, 2007
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              Greetings friends,

              The recent discussion topic about slavery is well outside the scope
              and charter of this goup. Besides, you all know where it'll go...

              Not that it isn't an important subject, or that we don't all have a
              right to say what we think, just that the conversation belongs elsewhere.

              I'd be happy to point the interested to other internet groups which
              are appropriate for that subject. I'd also be glad to have private
              email from anyone who'd like to talk about it further.

              Thanks,
              Brian
            • robert blama
              I agree, I ususally dont say much
              Message 6 of 29 , Mar 11, 2007
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                I agree, I ususally dont say much< i just listend and pick up great info but I want it concentrated on Antietam, Would discuss other topics in another forum.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Brian Downey
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:45 AM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Off topic posting reminder


                Greetings friends,

                The recent discussion topic about slavery is well outside the scope
                and charter of this goup. Besides, you all know where it'll go...

                Not that it isn't an important subject, or that we don't all have a
                right to say what we think, just that the conversation belongs elsewhere.

                I'd be happy to point the interested to other internet groups which
                are appropriate for that subject. I'd also be glad to have private
                email from anyone who'd like to talk about it further.

                Thanks,
                Brian





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Adam Zimmerli
                I have to say I m a fan of Joe Harsh s trilogy, but as far as a definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman s study will be coming out this summer (at a thousand
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                  I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                  definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                  this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
                  > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
                  be
                  > definitive. But very long.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
                  > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                  >
                  > James
                  >
                • mfitz54@aol.com
                  I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen s writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                    I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about how he
                    wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work would have been
                    a major source.
                    How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.

                    Mike Fitzpatrick


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: azimmerli@...
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                    I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                    definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                    this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
                    > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
                    be
                    > definitive. But very long.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
                    > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                    >
                    > James
                    >



                    ________________________________________________________________________
                    AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • G E Mayers
                    Mike, Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete his project on
                    Message 9 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                      Mike,

                      Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                      complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                      his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                      one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                      passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                      God. --Anonymous
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <mfitz54@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                      >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
                      >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
                      >He did talk about how he
                      > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
                      > would have been
                      > a major source.
                      > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
                      >
                      > Mike Fitzpatrick
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: azimmerli@...
                      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                      >
                      >
                      > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                      > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                      > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >>
                      >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                      >> wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                      >> > on
                      >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                      >> would
                      > be
                      >> definitive. But very long.
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                      >> some
                      >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                      >>
                      >> James
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________________________________________________
                      > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                      > free from AOL at AOL.com.
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                    • G E Mayers
                      Dear Adam, The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on an
                      Message 10 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                        Dear Adam,

                        The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less
                        than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on
                        an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
                        qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                        one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                        passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                        God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                        I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                        definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                        this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
                        > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
                        be
                        > definitive. But very long.
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                        > some
                        > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                        >
                        > James
                        >
                      • mfitz54@aol.com
                        Thank you. I m very sorry to hear that. Mike ... From: gerry1952@verizon.net To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM Subject: Re:
                        Message 11 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                          Thank you. I'm very sorry to hear that.

                          Mike

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: gerry1952@...
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                          Mike,

                          Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                          complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                          his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                          one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                          passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                          God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <mfitz54@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                          >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
                          >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
                          >He did talk about how he
                          > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
                          > would have been
                          > a major source.
                          > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
                          >
                          > Mike Fitzpatrick
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: azimmerli@...
                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                          >
                          >
                          > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                          > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                          > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >>
                          >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                          >> wrote:
                          >> >
                          >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                          >> > on
                          >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                          >> would
                          > be
                          >> definitive. But very long.
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >>
                          >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                          >> some
                          >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                          >>
                          >> James
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________________
                          > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                          > free from AOL at AOL.com.
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >



                          ________________________________________________________________________
                          AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • James W. Durney
                          Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books? James
                          Message 12 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                            Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                            James

                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: gerry1952@...
                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                            >
                            >
                            > Mike,
                            >
                            > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                            > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                            > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                            >
                          • G E Mayers
                            Dear James, The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not sure. Yr.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                              Dear James,

                              The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the
                              publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not
                              sure.

                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                              one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                              passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                              God. --Anonymous
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:27 PM
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                              Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                              James

                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: gerry1952@...
                              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                              >
                              >
                              > Mike,
                              >
                              > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                              > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                              > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                              >
                            • Thomas Clemens
                              Yes, but he doesn t travel much. You d most likely need to call him and go to his house. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community
                              Message 14 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
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                                Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him and go to his house.


                                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                Professor of History
                                Hagerstown Community College



                                >>> "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> 04/08/07 8:27 PM >>>

                                Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                                James

                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: gerry1952@...
                                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                >
                                >
                                > Mike,
                                >
                                > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                                > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                                > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                                >





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • James W. Durney
                                ... and go to his house. ... Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to get them signed. James
                                Message 15 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
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                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him
                                  and go to his house.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  > Professor of History
                                  > Hagerstown Community College

                                  Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to
                                  get them signed.

                                  James
                                • joseph_pierro
                                  Dear Adam (and Gerry): There seems to be a little confusion about this book. It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was written soem
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 23, 2007
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                                    Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                                    There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                                    It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was
                                    written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it remains an
                                    unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is the
                                    (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own 1,400
                                    page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of pages;
                                    my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                                    As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                                    that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to this
                                    day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to say
                                    it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted when
                                    standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a modern
                                    work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                                    interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                                    Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the battle
                                    ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth of
                                    that statement.

                                    Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree with
                                    everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                                    coming to grips with his work at some point.

                                    Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been an
                                    exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                                    have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                                    agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants (though
                                    owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational study.

                                    I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                                    otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five people
                                    have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                                    themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                                    improve once he sees it. ;)

                                    --Joseph Pierro
                                    Hanover Co., Va.

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dear Adam,
                                    >
                                    > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as
                                    less
                                    > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate
                                    on
                                    > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
                                    > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                                    >
                                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                    >
                                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                    > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union,
                                    a
                                    > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                                    Almighty
                                    > God. --Anonymous
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                    > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                                    > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                                    >
                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                                    on
                                    > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                                    would
                                    > be
                                    > > definitive. But very long.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                                    > > some
                                    > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                                    > >
                                    > > James
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • G E Mayers
                                    Dear Joseph, I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian of the Battle of
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear Joseph,

                                      I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                                      which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                                      of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                                      carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                                      veterans of both sides.

                                      Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                                      was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                                      literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                                      muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                                      training"!!!!), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                                      facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                                      to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                                      about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                                      is not without its flaws.

                                      Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                                      titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg", which can be purchased
                                      in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                                      paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                                      a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                                      Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                                      There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                                      It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                                      was
                                      written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                                      remains an
                                      unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                                      the
                                      (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                                      1,400
                                      page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                                      pages;
                                      my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                                      As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                                      that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                                      this
                                      day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                                      say
                                      it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                                      when
                                      standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                                      modern
                                      work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                                      interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                                      Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                                      battle
                                      ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                                      of
                                      that statement.

                                      Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                                      with
                                      everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                                      coming to grips with his work at some point.

                                      Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                                      an
                                      exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                                      have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                                      agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                                      (though
                                      owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational
                                      study.

                                      I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                                      otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                                      people
                                      have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                                      themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                                      improve once he sees it. ;)

                                      --Joseph Pierro
                                      Hanover Co., Va.

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Adam,
                                      >
                                      > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                                      > as
                                      less
                                      > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                                      > Doctorate
                                      on
                                      > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                                      > person
                                      > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                                      >
                                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                      >
                                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                      > on
                                      > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                      > Union,
                                      a
                                      > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                                      Almighty
                                      > God. --Anonymous
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                      > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                                      > coming out
                                      > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                                      >
                                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney"
                                      > <JWD2044@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                      > > <clemenst@>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                                      > > > work
                                      on
                                      > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                                      > > they
                                      would
                                      > be
                                      > > definitive. But very long.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                                      > > read
                                      > > some
                                      > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                                      > > James
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Joseph Pierro
                                      Dear Gerry: Please call me Jake. All my friends do. My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Gerry:

                                        Please call me Jake. All my friends do.

                                        My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the "about to be published" Carman manuscript as "the definitive work.

                                        Your statement in reply was something on the lines of "hardly definitive"--which I took as a remark upon my job of EDITING it. I see that you meant to refer to Carman's manuscript itself.

                                        To which, I concur that Carman is HARDLY the last work on the subject. In fact, he owes (and openly acknowledges) quite a debt to Palfrey (quoting him verbatim and at length in many passages) and other contemporaries. In that regard, I am not aware of ANY author who has written all that can be said on Antietam. (I'm hard pressed to think of any historian who has done that for ANY Civil War battle.)

                                        I think the word "definitive" sprang up in this conversation as a result of my use of the word in the subtitle to my edition of Carman. Marketing cache aside, I used the term in its literal sense. Carman's manuscript represnets the sum total of his reserach into the battle--research which formed the basis of the "official narrative" of Antietam as constructed by the Battlefield Board, and which has served--on some level--as the basis for all subsequent histories of the fight.

                                        Consciously or not, everyone who writes on Antietam is in some way beginning with Carman. The govenrment's account of the battle--as expressed not only in print, but in the layout of Antietam National Battlefield itself, in what was presevred and what was omitted, what was foregrounded and what was relegated to the sidelines--is the narrative Carman constructed for them.

                                        Which is to say (a point I express in my introduction) that Carman's work has "defined" all subsequent research. It's the baseline to which others historians have either adhered or deviated--but, by definition, they have never worked in isolation from it.

                                        As for its flaws, I am the first to admit there are boths errors of fact and errors of interpretation in Carman's work. (So too with every history.)

                                        I go back to my use of the word "baseline." I for one would never argue that Carman's work (by which I refer to the sum of his inquiries into Antietam, of which the Maryland Campaign is but one expression) is (or ever intended to be) the "last" word on the subject. I would argue, however, that it is, if not the FIRST word, the most influential on the subsequent course of Antietam historiography.



                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@...>
                                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:39:12 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                                        Dear Joseph,

                                        I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                                        which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                                        of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                                        carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                                        veterans of both sides.

                                        Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                                        was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                                        literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                                        muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                                        training"!!! !), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                                        facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                                        to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                                        about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                                        is not without its flaws.

                                        Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                                        titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg" , which can be purchased
                                        in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                                        paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                                        a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com>
                                        To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                                        Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                                        Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                                        There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                                        It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                                        was
                                        written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                                        remains an
                                        unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                                        the
                                        (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                                        1,400
                                        page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                                        pages;
                                        my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                                        As for it being "less than definitive"- -well, it is THE narrative
                                        that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                                        this
                                        day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                                        say
                                        it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                                        when
                                        standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                                        modern
                                        work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                                        interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                                        Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                                        battle
                                        ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                                        of
                                        that statement.

                                        Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                                        with
                                        everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                                        coming to grips with his work at some point.

                                        Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                                        an
                                        exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                                        have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                                        agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                                        (though
                                        owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operation al
                                        study.

                                        I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                                        otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                                        people
                                        have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                                        themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                                        improve once he sees it. ;)

                                        --Joseph Pierro
                                        Hanover Co., Va.

                                        --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@. ..>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dear Adam,
                                        >
                                        > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                                        > as
                                        less
                                        > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                                        > Doctorate
                                        on
                                        > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                                        > person
                                        > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                                        >
                                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                        >
                                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                        > on
                                        > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                        > Union,
                                        a
                                        > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                                        Almighty
                                        > God. --Anonymous
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@. ..>
                                        > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                                        > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                        > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                                        > coming out
                                        > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                                        >
                                        > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "James W. Durney"
                                        > <JWD2044@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                        > > <clemenst@>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                                        > > > work
                                        on
                                        > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                                        > > they
                                        would
                                        > be
                                        > > definitive. But very long.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                                        > > read
                                        > > some
                                        > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                                        > > James
                                        > >
                                        >






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                                      • Stephen Recker
                                        I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back because he wasn t sure
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 2 5:38 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge
                                          Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back
                                          because he wasn't sure there was still going to be room for him. I
                                          checked it out and there is still plenty of room for folks who want to
                                          attend. I thought I would post a note here about it so that anyone else
                                          who wanted to go yet hadn't signed up might be assured that the
                                          opportunity has not passed.

                                          Info can be found at: www.chambersburgcivilwarseminars.org

                                          I'm particularly excited to go on John Hoptak's Final Assault walk. He
                                          says that he is going to go in an area little travelled. Ending, no
                                          doubt, with a long speech at the monument for the 48th PA ;-)

                                          Who else is going?

                                          Stephen Recker
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