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Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

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  • James W. Durney
    ... the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would be definitive. But very long. ... I would only argue it would be very very very long.
    Message 1 of 29 , Mar 8 12:04 PM
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      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
      the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would be
      definitive. But very long.
      >
      >

      I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
      of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.

      James
    • T.R.Livesey
      ... This tiger by the tail thing is a bunch of nonsense. None of the major conflicts over slavery were about slavery in the south; it was all about slavery
      Message 2 of 29 , Mar 9 10:40 AM
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        On Thu Mar 8 0:57 , 'Quentin Holt' que182001@...> sent:

        >--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey wrote:
        >>
        >To T.R. Livesey and All:
        >
        >
        >Do you know that all 13 of the original states of the United States
        >were slave states when the Constitution was ratified? Some of them,
        >like the New England and mid-Atlantic states later abolished slavery
        >by state law. Many people in the South did not like slavery either,
        >but what were they going to do? It was like having a tiger by the
        >tail. You wish that you didn't, but you don't dare let go. It was
        >unsettling to say the least. Generally speaking, I think that we
        >should be very cautious about judging people of one era of history by
        >the standards of a later era. We can only guess what people a
        >century and a half from now will think of us.

        This 'tiger by the tail' thing is a bunch of nonsense. None of the major
        conflicts over slavery were about slavery in the south; it was all about slavery
        in the west (Missouri Compromise, Kansas-Nebraska, etc), slavery in the north
        (Dred Scott) and slavery in the Capital. No matter how ‘dangerous’, volatile, or
        explosive slavery might be, its supporters were bent on spreading it to every
        region of the country. Lincoln made this argument in his debates with Douglas:
        if a man had something dangerous, toxic, and explosive in your in one part of
        your house, why would you want to spread it everywhere in your house? If you
        bought a new house, why would you bring the dangerous, explosive, toxic thing
        into the new house? And if some of the toxic substance leaked onto your
        neighbor’s property, why would you demand a law that made your neighbor obligated
        to help you scoop up the toxic substance and bring it back to your house? If you
        tolerate something only because you don’t know what to do with it, your don’t
        turn around and try to grow it and make it flourish.

        That aside, the historical record proves that slavery was not a tiger by the
        tail. After all, emancipation eventually did happen, and the tiger got let go.
        There were no widespread reprisals of blacks on whites, except in the imagination
        of the authors of "Birth of a Nation".

        As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you saying that
        respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th century? They
        lived under 'all men are created equal', just like we do. I think if the George
        Wallaces of the world thought a little bit less about their immediate interests
        and a little more about how the future will judge them, the world would be a much
        better place.


        >
        >
        >In our day I look around me and I think I can see the "curious
        >institution" of slavery returning in another form. Is it not a form
        >of slavery when one must work from January 2 until a late May or
        >June "Tax Freedom Day" just to pay his or her federal, state, and
        >local taxes? Then one can have the rest of the year's income to
        >support self, family, and church. Here in King County, Washington,
        >we have a County Executive and a majority on the County Council who,
        >like other "liberals," have the attitude that people like Iris and I
        >exist only to provide limitless revenue for every fool boondoggle and
        >government extravagance that their fertile minds can imagine. As if
        >we had it!
        >

        We don't discuss modern politics in this group.

        T.R. Livesey
        tlivesey@...
      • James W. Durney
        ... saying that ... century? TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a resounding YES . Read The Harp and the Eagle by Susannah Ural
        Message 3 of 29 , Mar 9 4:26 PM
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          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you
          saying that
          > respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th
          century?

          TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a
          resounding 'YES'. Read "The Harp and the Eagle" by Susannah Ural
          Bruce. BTW, the Germans were not a great deal better off bur that side
          of my family didn't come to America until after the war.

          James
        • T.R.Livesey
          Aspiring to something is different than actually practising it. Or, failing in something doesn t mean you never meant to succeed. Atrocities continue to the
          Message 4 of 29 , Mar 9 5:42 PM
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            Aspiring to something is different than actually practising it. Or, failing in
            something doesn't mean you never meant to succeed. Atrocities continue to the
            present day, and probably will continue forever. Does that prove that there is no
            such thing as respect for human dignity?

            T.R. Livesey
            tlivesey@...

            On Fri Mar 9 18:26 , 'James W. Durney' <JWD2044@...> sent:

            >--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >> As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you
            >saying that
            >> respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th
            >century?
            >
            >TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a
            >resounding 'YES'. Read "The Harp and the Eagle" by Susannah Ural
            >Bruce. BTW, the Germans were not a great deal better off bur that side
            >of my family didn't come to America until after the war.
            >
            >James
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Mark Holt
            Human dignity was a big thing in the 19th century. Many slaves were treated not only with dignity but with love. This was especially true in relationships in
            Message 5 of 29 , Mar 10 6:25 AM
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              Human dignity was a big thing in the 19th century. Many slaves were treated not only with dignity but with love. This was especially true in relationships in which only one or a very few slaves belonged to a family. People who were mean to slaves were, more often than not, just mean in general. A person who was good to slaves was, more often than not, good to animals, family, and neighbors.

              I believe that, when I come before God's judgment, my being a non-slave-owner will be of minor import. What will really matter is how I treated all people around me.

              "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> wrote:
              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you
              saying that
              > respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th
              century?

              TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a
              resounding 'YES'. Read "The Harp and the Eagle" by Susannah Ural
              Bruce. BTW, the Germans were not a great deal better off bur that side
              of my family didn't come to America until after the war.

              James








              test'; ">

              ---------------------------------
              Don't pick lemons.
              See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.

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            • Brian Downey
              Greetings friends, The recent discussion topic about slavery is well outside the scope and charter of this goup. Besides, you all know where it ll go... Not
              Message 6 of 29 , Mar 10 7:45 AM
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                Greetings friends,

                The recent discussion topic about slavery is well outside the scope
                and charter of this goup. Besides, you all know where it'll go...

                Not that it isn't an important subject, or that we don't all have a
                right to say what we think, just that the conversation belongs elsewhere.

                I'd be happy to point the interested to other internet groups which
                are appropriate for that subject. I'd also be glad to have private
                email from anyone who'd like to talk about it further.

                Thanks,
                Brian
              • robert blama
                I agree, I ususally dont say much
                Message 7 of 29 , Mar 11 6:16 AM
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                  I agree, I ususally dont say much< i just listend and pick up great info but I want it concentrated on Antietam, Would discuss other topics in another forum.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Brian Downey
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:45 AM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Off topic posting reminder


                  Greetings friends,

                  The recent discussion topic about slavery is well outside the scope
                  and charter of this goup. Besides, you all know where it'll go...

                  Not that it isn't an important subject, or that we don't all have a
                  right to say what we think, just that the conversation belongs elsewhere.

                  I'd be happy to point the interested to other internet groups which
                  are appropriate for that subject. I'd also be glad to have private
                  email from anyone who'd like to talk about it further.

                  Thanks,
                  Brian





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Adam Zimmerli
                  I have to say I m a fan of Joe Harsh s trilogy, but as far as a definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman s study will be coming out this summer (at a thousand
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                    I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                    definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                    this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
                    > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
                    be
                    > definitive. But very long.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
                    > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                    >
                    > James
                    >
                  • mfitz54@aol.com
                    I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen s writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about
                    Message 9 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                      I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about how he
                      wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work would have been
                      a major source.
                      How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.

                      Mike Fitzpatrick


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: azimmerli@...
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                      I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                      definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                      this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
                      > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
                      be
                      > definitive. But very long.
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
                      > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                      >
                      > James
                      >



                      ________________________________________________________________________
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • G E Mayers
                      Mike, Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete his project on
                      Message 10 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                        Mike,

                        Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                        complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                        his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                        one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                        passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                        God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <mfitz54@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                        >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
                        >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
                        >He did talk about how he
                        > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
                        > would have been
                        > a major source.
                        > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
                        >
                        > Mike Fitzpatrick
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: azimmerli@...
                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                        >
                        >
                        > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                        > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                        > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >>
                        >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                        >> wrote:
                        >> >
                        >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                        >> > on
                        >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                        >> would
                        > be
                        >> definitive. But very long.
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >>
                        >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                        >> some
                        >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                        >>
                        >> James
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________________________________________________
                        > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                        > free from AOL at AOL.com.
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                      • G E Mayers
                        Dear Adam, The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on an
                        Message 11 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                          Dear Adam,

                          The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less
                          than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on
                          an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
                          qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                          one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                          passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                          God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                          I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                          definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                          this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
                          > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
                          be
                          > definitive. But very long.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                          > some
                          > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                          >
                          > James
                          >
                        • mfitz54@aol.com
                          Thank you. I m very sorry to hear that. Mike ... From: gerry1952@verizon.net To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM Subject: Re:
                          Message 12 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                            Thank you. I'm very sorry to hear that.

                            Mike

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: gerry1952@...
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                            Mike,

                            Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                            complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                            his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                            one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                            passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                            God. --Anonymous
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <mfitz54@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                            >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
                            >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
                            >He did talk about how he
                            > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
                            > would have been
                            > a major source.
                            > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
                            >
                            > Mike Fitzpatrick
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: azimmerli@...
                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                            >
                            >
                            > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                            > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                            > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                            > wrote:
                            >>
                            >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                            >> wrote:
                            >> >
                            >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                            >> > on
                            >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                            >> would
                            > be
                            >> definitive. But very long.
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >>
                            >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                            >> some
                            >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                            >>
                            >> James
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > __________________________________________________________
                            > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                            > free from AOL at AOL.com.
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >



                            ________________________________________________________________________
                            AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


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                          • James W. Durney
                            Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books? James
                            Message 13 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                              Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                              James

                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: gerry1952@...
                              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                              >
                              >
                              > Mike,
                              >
                              > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                              > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                              > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                              >
                            • G E Mayers
                              Dear James, The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not sure. Yr.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                                Dear James,

                                The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the
                                publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not
                                sure.

                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                                passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                                God. --Anonymous
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:27 PM
                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                                Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                                James

                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: gerry1952@...
                                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                >
                                >
                                > Mike,
                                >
                                > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                                > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                                > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                                >
                              • Thomas Clemens
                                Yes, but he doesn t travel much. You d most likely need to call him and go to his house. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community
                                Message 15 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
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                                  Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him and go to his house.


                                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  Professor of History
                                  Hagerstown Community College



                                  >>> "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> 04/08/07 8:27 PM >>>

                                  Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                                  James

                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: gerry1952@...
                                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Mike,
                                  >
                                  > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                                  > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                                  > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                                  >





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • James W. Durney
                                  ... and go to his house. ... Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to get them signed. James
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
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                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him
                                    and go to his house.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    > Professor of History
                                    > Hagerstown Community College

                                    Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to
                                    get them signed.

                                    James
                                  • joseph_pierro
                                    Dear Adam (and Gerry): There seems to be a little confusion about this book. It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was written soem
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 23, 2007
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                                      Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                                      There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                                      It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was
                                      written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it remains an
                                      unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is the
                                      (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own 1,400
                                      page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of pages;
                                      my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                                      As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                                      that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to this
                                      day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to say
                                      it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted when
                                      standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a modern
                                      work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                                      interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                                      Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the battle
                                      ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth of
                                      that statement.

                                      Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree with
                                      everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                                      coming to grips with his work at some point.

                                      Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been an
                                      exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                                      have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                                      agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants (though
                                      owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational study.

                                      I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                                      otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five people
                                      have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                                      themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                                      improve once he sees it. ;)

                                      --Joseph Pierro
                                      Hanover Co., Va.

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Adam,
                                      >
                                      > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as
                                      less
                                      > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate
                                      on
                                      > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
                                      > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                                      >
                                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                      >
                                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                      > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union,
                                      a
                                      > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                                      Almighty
                                      > God. --Anonymous
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                      > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                                      > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                                      >
                                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                                      on
                                      > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                                      would
                                      > be
                                      > > definitive. But very long.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                                      > > some
                                      > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                                      > >
                                      > > James
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • G E Mayers
                                      Dear Joseph, I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian of the Battle of
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Joseph,

                                        I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                                        which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                                        of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                                        carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                                        veterans of both sides.

                                        Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                                        was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                                        literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                                        muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                                        training"!!!!), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                                        facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                                        to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                                        about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                                        is not without its flaws.

                                        Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                                        titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg", which can be purchased
                                        in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                                        paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                                        a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                                        Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                                        There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                                        It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                                        was
                                        written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                                        remains an
                                        unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                                        the
                                        (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                                        1,400
                                        page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                                        pages;
                                        my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                                        As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                                        that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                                        this
                                        day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                                        say
                                        it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                                        when
                                        standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                                        modern
                                        work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                                        interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                                        Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                                        battle
                                        ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                                        of
                                        that statement.

                                        Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                                        with
                                        everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                                        coming to grips with his work at some point.

                                        Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                                        an
                                        exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                                        have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                                        agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                                        (though
                                        owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational
                                        study.

                                        I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                                        otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                                        people
                                        have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                                        themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                                        improve once he sees it. ;)

                                        --Joseph Pierro
                                        Hanover Co., Va.

                                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dear Adam,
                                        >
                                        > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                                        > as
                                        less
                                        > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                                        > Doctorate
                                        on
                                        > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                                        > person
                                        > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                                        >
                                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                        >
                                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                        > on
                                        > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                        > Union,
                                        a
                                        > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                                        Almighty
                                        > God. --Anonymous
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                        > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                                        > coming out
                                        > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                                        >
                                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney"
                                        > <JWD2044@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                        > > <clemenst@>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                                        > > > work
                                        on
                                        > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                                        > > they
                                        would
                                        > be
                                        > > definitive. But very long.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                                        > > read
                                        > > some
                                        > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                                        > > James
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Joseph Pierro
                                        Dear Gerry: Please call me Jake. All my friends do. My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Gerry:

                                          Please call me Jake. All my friends do.

                                          My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the "about to be published" Carman manuscript as "the definitive work.

                                          Your statement in reply was something on the lines of "hardly definitive"--which I took as a remark upon my job of EDITING it. I see that you meant to refer to Carman's manuscript itself.

                                          To which, I concur that Carman is HARDLY the last work on the subject. In fact, he owes (and openly acknowledges) quite a debt to Palfrey (quoting him verbatim and at length in many passages) and other contemporaries. In that regard, I am not aware of ANY author who has written all that can be said on Antietam. (I'm hard pressed to think of any historian who has done that for ANY Civil War battle.)

                                          I think the word "definitive" sprang up in this conversation as a result of my use of the word in the subtitle to my edition of Carman. Marketing cache aside, I used the term in its literal sense. Carman's manuscript represnets the sum total of his reserach into the battle--research which formed the basis of the "official narrative" of Antietam as constructed by the Battlefield Board, and which has served--on some level--as the basis for all subsequent histories of the fight.

                                          Consciously or not, everyone who writes on Antietam is in some way beginning with Carman. The govenrment's account of the battle--as expressed not only in print, but in the layout of Antietam National Battlefield itself, in what was presevred and what was omitted, what was foregrounded and what was relegated to the sidelines--is the narrative Carman constructed for them.

                                          Which is to say (a point I express in my introduction) that Carman's work has "defined" all subsequent research. It's the baseline to which others historians have either adhered or deviated--but, by definition, they have never worked in isolation from it.

                                          As for its flaws, I am the first to admit there are boths errors of fact and errors of interpretation in Carman's work. (So too with every history.)

                                          I go back to my use of the word "baseline." I for one would never argue that Carman's work (by which I refer to the sum of his inquiries into Antietam, of which the Maryland Campaign is but one expression) is (or ever intended to be) the "last" word on the subject. I would argue, however, that it is, if not the FIRST word, the most influential on the subsequent course of Antietam historiography.



                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@...>
                                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:39:12 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                                          Dear Joseph,

                                          I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                                          which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                                          of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                                          carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                                          veterans of both sides.

                                          Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                                          was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                                          literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                                          muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                                          training"!!! !), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                                          facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                                          to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                                          about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                                          is not without its flaws.

                                          Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                                          titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg" , which can be purchased
                                          in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                                          paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                                          a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com>
                                          To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                                          Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                                          Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                                          There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                                          It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                                          was
                                          written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                                          remains an
                                          unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                                          the
                                          (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                                          1,400
                                          page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                                          pages;
                                          my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                                          As for it being "less than definitive"- -well, it is THE narrative
                                          that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                                          this
                                          day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                                          say
                                          it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                                          when
                                          standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                                          modern
                                          work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                                          interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                                          Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                                          battle
                                          ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                                          of
                                          that statement.

                                          Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                                          with
                                          everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                                          coming to grips with his work at some point.

                                          Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                                          an
                                          exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                                          have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                                          agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                                          (though
                                          owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operation al
                                          study.

                                          I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                                          otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                                          people
                                          have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                                          themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                                          improve once he sees it. ;)

                                          --Joseph Pierro
                                          Hanover Co., Va.

                                          --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@. ..>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear Adam,
                                          >
                                          > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                                          > as
                                          less
                                          > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                                          > Doctorate
                                          on
                                          > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                                          > person
                                          > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                                          >
                                          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                          >
                                          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                          > on
                                          > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                          > Union,
                                          a
                                          > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                                          Almighty
                                          > God. --Anonymous
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@. ..>
                                          > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                                          > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                          > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                                          > coming out
                                          > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                                          >
                                          > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "James W. Durney"
                                          > <JWD2044@>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                          > > <clemenst@>
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                                          > > > work
                                          on
                                          > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                                          > > they
                                          would
                                          > be
                                          > > definitive. But very long.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                                          > > read
                                          > > some
                                          > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                                          > > James
                                          > >
                                          >






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                                          (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
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                                        • Stephen Recker
                                          I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back because he wasn t sure
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge
                                            Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back
                                            because he wasn't sure there was still going to be room for him. I
                                            checked it out and there is still plenty of room for folks who want to
                                            attend. I thought I would post a note here about it so that anyone else
                                            who wanted to go yet hadn't signed up might be assured that the
                                            opportunity has not passed.

                                            Info can be found at: www.chambersburgcivilwarseminars.org

                                            I'm particularly excited to go on John Hoptak's Final Assault walk. He
                                            says that he is going to go in an area little travelled. Ending, no
                                            doubt, with a long speech at the monument for the 48th PA ;-)

                                            Who else is going?

                                            Stephen Recker
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