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  • Thomas Clemens
    Hi Quenton and thank you for that heartfelt message. I think many of us feel the war as well as read about it. Battlefields of any sort are special places,
    Message 1 of 29 , Mar 7, 2007
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      Hi Quenton and thank you for that heartfelt message. I think many of us "feel" the war as well as read about it. Battlefields of any sort are special places, and I think many of us afree on that point too. As a veteran who has seen modern battlefields you have an additional and perhaps deeper understanding of the horror or war in general and can empathize with the savagery of Civil War combat. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and seeing your participation in this group.


      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College



      >>> Mark Holt <que182001@...> 03/07/07 12:30 AM >>>

      To All:

      I am Quentin Holt of Renton, Washington State. I have been an amateur historian since deep into my childhood, and I am now 58 years old. I am well-read and widely traveled and have a lifelong penchant for thinking for myself. I am a male-type person and have never been into emotional breakdowns or serious failures to function. I was nearly a dozen years between the National Guard and the Army Reserve. I am a graduate of the Infantry School at Fort Benning.

      In November of 1990, my Army Reserve unit, the 889th Supply and Service Company, Great Falls, Montana was mobilized for active duty in Desert Shield. When the company was demobilized from Desert Storm six months later, I was without military responsibilities for two and a half months, without a civilian job, and without an address. What I did have was a lot of freedom, free time, and long green. It was the perfect combination to visit some places that I had wanted to visit all my life but lacked either the time or the money or both.

      One of those places was Sharpsburg. Others were the Smithsonian, Gettysburg, Crampton's Gap, Harper's Ferry, The Kennedy Farm, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, The Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Guiney Station, and Ford's Theater. Others still were a lady in New Jersey, whom I had met in Arabia, and the beach at Sandy Hook. I was single then.

      When I visited the blood-soaked, ghost-haunted battlefields of the War, I felt like I was like most other tourists there except that I may have been more knowledgeable about the history of the War and that I was alone in my visits. Like most any caring and decent person, I was also saddened by the ways that Americans used to regard and treat one another, but it did not go beyond the normal at the time.

      After about a month, I finished my road trip, returned to Great Falls, Montana, stayed there a weekend to recover from a cold, and then moved to where I am now. Following that, I got a job like the one that I had trained for in Montana but could not get there, joined a new Army Reserve Unit, got a better job, and acquired a wife (my first and the one that I have now).

      On my visits to the battlefields, particularly The Wilderness and Harper's Ferry but all of them more or less, I felt a heaviness that I cannot describe and have never felt anywhere else. Some element of what is there has seemingly penetrated my being and has made me different. Perhaps it is for the better, but I am certainly not more comfortable.

      Before the trip, my thoughts about the War were that it was (1) not God's judgment on America for anything but only the direct result of people who wanted it to happen and what they did to make it happen; (2) horrible, cruel, tragic, and awful beyond comprehension; (3) pseudo-justified by lies and vicious propaganda; (4) by the general public, even more misunderstood now than then; (5) started by the National Government and (6) that as an ordinary, freedom-loving American, I lost when the federal invasion was completed and started to lose even when it began. The War was the epoch when the National Government started to transform exponentially from what it was meant to be by the Founding Fathers into what it is now.

      After the trip, the things that I had earlier thought about the War were and are now things that I feel deeply on an an emotional level. It seems especially that some relatively tiny measure of the terror, sadness, pain, and disgust that permeated the atmosphere at Sharpsburg on and after September 17, 1862 and the other battlefields just sort of attached itself to my soul like a cockle burr might attach to the bottom of my pants. Unlike something physical, I cannot pull it out. Time has not lessened the effect of it.

      It is not like someone might feel when he sits through a sad movie or hears a sad story. In those cases, the listener thinks through the story, empathizes with one or more of the characters, and then feels the pain that they think that they would feel if they were in the situation in real life. It is more like the pain was poured directly from one bucket into another, or more proportionately, like my bucket was added to directly by a spigot attached to the bottom of Grand Coulee Dam. I feel it now. My eyes pour tears as I type this. I feel it when I hear crap idolizing President Lincoln or the other principal figures who decided to instigate the War or some blasphemous song of the period written to promote the armed invasion of the South.

      At work I receive calls all day from former hospital patients and their family members about their accounts. I did all right, considering the complexity of it all and my newness on the job, until my first call last Friday. The man responsible for the $400-some debt told me that his wife had died ten months ago. Normally, I would just verbally express my regret and otherwise say and do what I am required by my employer to say and do and then would just casually go onto the next call. However, this time I could directly feel the man's emotional pain (and it was and is very considerable). It just poured right into me immediately like it was being dumped from one bucket into another. It did not come by empathizing with him or consciously thinking about how he must feel. It did not generate within me at all. It was his pain generated within him and transmitted telepathically into me just as easily and quickly and completely as his voice was being transmitted into my
      earpiece. I could hardly function for the next call, and my supervisor, seeing me from a distance, stopped by to ask what was wrong. It was hard to explain, and I might have come off looking like a quiet mental case on the edge of not functioning on the job.

      All of this brings me to the point of my joining this group and writing this post. Do I need to find some way (can't imagine how) to just straighten up and get over it, or are there any of you who are going through or went through anything like this because of your visits to such places as Sharpsburg?


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    • G E Mayers
      Dear Mark, Your post was very moving. I feel a sadness at many of the Civil War battlefields and especially if I tramp through a cemetery which has Civil War
      Message 2 of 29 , Mar 7, 2007
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        Dear Mark,

        Your post was very moving. I feel a sadness at many of the Civil War
        battlefields and especially if I tramp through a cemetery which has
        Civil War dead in it.

        However, I would like to comment on one of your paragraphs, the one
        about the change in the Federal government etc. brought on by the war.
        That is the main reason I reenact and also do living history as a
        Confederate.

        I look forward to hearing from you your comments, thoughts, questions,
        etc as it relates to the field at Sharpsburg.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
        one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
        passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
        God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Mark Holt" <que182001@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:30 AM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Added Upon/New Member


        > To All:
        >
        > I am Quentin Holt of Renton, Washington State. I have been an
        > amateur historian since deep into my childhood, and I am now 58
        > years old. I am well-read and widely traveled and have a lifelong
        > penchant for thinking for myself. I am a male-type person and have
        > never been into emotional breakdowns or serious failures to
        > function. I was nearly a dozen years between the National Guard and
        > the Army Reserve. I am a graduate of the Infantry School at Fort
        > Benning.
        >
        > In November of 1990, my Army Reserve unit, the 889th Supply and
        > Service Company, Great Falls, Montana was mobilized for active duty
        > in Desert Shield. When the company was demobilized from Desert
        > Storm six months later, I was without military responsibilities for
        > two and a half months, without a civilian job, and without an
        > address. What I did have was a lot of freedom, free time, and long
        > green. It was the perfect combination to visit some places that I
        > had wanted to visit all my life but lacked either the time or the
        > money or both.
        >
        > One of those places was Sharpsburg. Others were the Smithsonian,
        > Gettysburg, Crampton's Gap, Harper's Ferry, The Kennedy Farm,
        > Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, The Wilderness, Spotsylvania,
        > Guiney Station, and Ford's Theater. Others still were a lady in New
        > Jersey, whom I had met in Arabia, and the beach at Sandy Hook. I
        > was single then.
        >
        > When I visited the blood-soaked, ghost-haunted battlefields of the
        > War, I felt like I was like most other tourists there except that I
        > may have been more knowledgeable about the history of the War and
        > that I was alone in my visits. Like most any caring and decent
        > person, I was also saddened by the ways that Americans used to
        > regard and treat one another, but it did not go beyond the normal at
        > the time.
        >
        > After about a month, I finished my road trip, returned to Great
        > Falls, Montana, stayed there a weekend to recover from a cold, and
        > then moved to where I am now. Following that, I got a job like the
        > one that I had trained for in Montana but could not get there,
        > joined a new Army Reserve Unit, got a better job, and acquired a
        > wife (my first and the one that I have now).
        >
        > On my visits to the battlefields, particularly The Wilderness and
        > Harper's Ferry but all of them more or less, I felt a heaviness that
        > I cannot describe and have never felt anywhere else. Some element
        > of what is there has seemingly penetrated my being and has made me
        > different. Perhaps it is for the better, but I am certainly not
        > more comfortable.
        >
        > Before the trip, my thoughts about the War were that it was (1) not
        > God's judgment on America for anything but only the direct result of
        > people who wanted it to happen and what they did to make it happen;
        > (2) horrible, cruel, tragic, and awful beyond comprehension; (3)
        > pseudo-justified by lies and vicious propaganda; (4) by the general
        > public, even more misunderstood now than then; (5) started by the
        > National Government and (6) that as an ordinary, freedom-loving
        > American, I lost when the federal invasion was completed and started
        > to lose even when it began. The War was the epoch when the National
        > Government started to transform exponentially from what it was meant
        > to be by the Founding Fathers into what it is now.
        >
        > After the trip, the things that I had earlier thought about the War
        > were and are now things that I feel deeply on an an emotional level.
        > It seems especially that some relatively tiny measure of the terror,
        > sadness, pain, and disgust that permeated the atmosphere at
        > Sharpsburg on and after September 17, 1862 and the other
        > battlefields just sort of attached itself to my soul like a cockle
        > burr might attach to the bottom of my pants. Unlike something
        > physical, I cannot pull it out. Time has not lessened the effect of
        > it.
        >
        > It is not like someone might feel when he sits through a sad movie
        > or hears a sad story. In those cases, the listener thinks through
        > the story, empathizes with one or more of the characters, and then
        > feels the pain that they think that they would feel if they were in
        > the situation in real life. It is more like the pain was poured
        > directly from one bucket into another, or more proportionately, like
        > my bucket was added to directly by a spigot attached to the bottom
        > of Grand Coulee Dam. I feel it now. My eyes pour tears as I type
        > this. I feel it when I hear crap idolizing President Lincoln or the
        > other principal figures who decided to instigate the War or some
        > blasphemous song of the period written to promote the armed invasion
        > of the South.
        >
        > At work I receive calls all day from former hospital patients and
        > their family members about their accounts. I did all right,
        > considering the complexity of it all and my newness on the job,
        > until my first call last Friday. The man responsible for the
        > $400-some debt told me that his wife had died ten months ago.
        > Normally, I would just verbally express my regret and otherwise say
        > and do what I am required by my employer to say and do and then
        > would just casually go onto the next call. However, this time I
        > could directly feel the man's emotional pain (and it was and is very
        > considerable). It just poured right into me immediately like it was
        > being dumped from one bucket into another. It did not come by
        > empathizing with him or consciously thinking about how he must feel.
        > It did not generate within me at all. It was his pain generated
        > within him and transmitted telepathically into me just as easily and
        > quickly and completely as his voice was being transmitted into my
        > earpiece. I could hardly function for the next call, and my
        > supervisor, seeing me from a distance, stopped by to ask what was
        > wrong. It was hard to explain, and I might have come off looking
        > like a quiet mental case on the edge of not functioning on the job.
        >
        > All of this brings me to the point of my joining this group and
        > writing this post. Do I need to find some way (can't imagine how)
        > to just straighten up and get over it, or are there any of you who
        > are going through or went through anything like this because of your
        > visits to such places as Sharpsburg?
        >
      • T.R.Livesey
        When I visit battlefields, I too am saddened by the ways that Americans used to regard and treat one another. Specifically, I am saddened how it was once
        Message 3 of 29 , Mar 7, 2007
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          When I visit battlefields, I too am saddened by the ways that Americans used to
          regard and treat one another. Specifically, I am saddened how it was once thought
          that it was OK, or normal, or even good, that people of one race could own as
          property the people of another race. I do take some comfort in the fact that the
          mess that the Founding Fathers left was eventually repaired, and their ideals had
          a chance to be realized.

          T.R. Livesey
          tlivesey@...

          On Tue Mar 6 23:30 , Mark Holt <que182001@...> sent:

          >To All:
          >
          > I am Quentin Holt of Renton, Washington State. I have been an amateur
          historian since deep into my childhood, and I am now 58 years old. I am
          well-read and widely traveled and have a lifelong penchant for thinking for
          myself. I am a male-type person and have never been into emotional breakdowns or
          serious failures to function. I was nearly a dozen years between the National
          Guard and the Army Reserve. I am a graduate of the Infantry School at Fort Benning.
          >
          .
          .
          .
          > When I visited the blood-soaked, ghost-haunted battlefields of the War, I felt
          like I was like most other tourists there except that I may have been more
          knowledgeable about the history of the War and that I was alone in my visits.
          Like most any caring and decent person, I was also saddened by the ways that
          Americans used to regard and treat one another, but it did not go beyond the
          normal at the time.
          >
        • Mark Holt
          To Thomas Klemons and All, Actually, I was quite sheltered from action during the First Gulf War. My company was in Khobar Towers, Daharan when the war
          Message 4 of 29 , Mar 7, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            To Thomas Klemons and All,

            Actually, I was quite sheltered from action during the First Gulf War. My company was in Khobar Towers, Daharan when the war started. The SCUD alerts seemed at the time to be merely nuisance pretexts for those lording it over us to get us up in the night and jack us around. Eventually even they got tired of it and just had us put on our masks and go back to sleep. Our duty station when we could get there was in the Seventh Corps support area about 35 miles south of the enemy line far away to the west. I never moved from the spot hardly at all until it was time for the company to start toward home.

            Before the overland invasion on February 24, 1991, we could see flashes on the northern horizon at night. One quiet night just after we had arrived in the desert and before the big generator arrived and was started, we heard a B-52 raid on the line. We could hear a far distant "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.... and noticed in the light of my candle some mess kits that were hanging on nails at the top of the side posts of our GP Medium tent were rattling. Someone asked me if it were guns. I said, "No, even the biggest guns are not that loud from such a long distance. The rythm is too slow and regular for them to be guns anyway. Those are thousand-pounders from a B52." Then, after a pause, I said, "Can you imagine what it must be like to be in the target area?" No one wanted to think about it.

            Most Gulf War battlefields are fiendishly toxic with depleted uranium. They can also be mined and/or boobytrapped in addition to having stench and flies. I was never under any tempation to go near one and never had the opportunity anyway. Also, unbeknownst to me until years after the Gulf War, the enemy left behind weaponized mycoplasmas in a freeze-dried medium in areas that he retreated from. The SCUDS also carried these agents. See http://www.gulfwarvets.com and click "mycoplasmas." Most of the basis for the "Gulf War Syndrome" is actually biological and not much chemical. It is a long and complicated story and very much off-subject.

            My impression of the Sharpsburg Battlefield was that it was, as of late June, 1991, a very pretty place. I spent all day there from early in the morning until past dark and walked through all of it. Like at Gettysburg and Harpers Ferry, I was very positively impressed with the way that the National Park Service kept the place maintained and guided visitors through. I detected no Political Correctness or political bias. I had had some negative experiences in previous years with the Park Service in the West. Some of the Rangers I encountered previously seemed to have the attitude that they were in the business of hassling people. Then too I witnessed a spectacle of bureaucratic stupidity/Orwellian Doublethink at Yellowstone in 1985 that was so very extreme that I hesitate to describe it in apprehension that I would not be believed. I saw none of that at National Historical Sites although I did hear from a family that it had been awakened in the middle of the night
            and hassled by a Ranger at the Shenandoah National Park for having left a bag of cookies on the picnic table. Everyone whom I had encountered on my 1991 trip was very well-behaved.

            And one more thing about the field at Sharpsburg: I once read in The Army Trainer magazine, published officially by the US Army, that if one would sneak in with his bedroll shortly after dark of a September 17, and lay down into the high weeds for the night, he will soon be able to hear the spectral moans of the wounded from the battle. I do not know that the statement is true, but neither do I know that it is not.

            While camped in Maryland, I bought from the KOA store a paperback copy of A Landscape Turned Red by Stephen W. Sears. I read it all during the trip during pleasant evenings in my pup tent. It is the complete story of the Sharpsburg/Antietam campaign.

            One place that I had camped for a couple of nights was on the Virginia-side heights above Harpers Ferry. Shallow remains of trenches remain among the campsites at the KOA. I spent an entire day in the town and also took in the "Ghost Tour" at night. Of all the hard luck towns I have ever seen in my life, that one must be the most unlucky.

            The Harpers Ferry and Kennedy Farm visits inspired me to find at the Renton Library and read two biographies of old John Brown shortly after moving into Renton late in July. There was far more to his life than the extremism and madness that dominated his last years. He was actually a very complex and interesting person. I read the books when I was in middle age and was looking toward the question of what manner of an old man would I become.

            Years later, I learned from someone I had made contact with through my job that, when she was young during the Great Depression, she worked in the State Capitol Building in Topeka, Kansas. She told of a man whom she would see there day after day painting a huge mural on a wall in front of an elevator. Every day when she went to work, the elevator door would open to her the scarey image of old John Brown with his eyes seeming to pierce through her. In one of his hands was an open Bible and in the other was a Sharps rifle. Dead men were at his feet, and behind him two armies squared off. One carried the US national flag, and the other carried the Confederate Battle Flag. In the background was a refugee wagon train and fire and smoke and the whirlwind.

            On the strength of her story, I wrote to the receptionist at the State Capitol Building to ask if it were possible for me to acquire a print of the mural. I received a letter back that I could order one from her for $21 and some cents. So, I did. My dear wife Iris said that it is not a peaceful picture (it isn't) but that I could put it in the computer room which is sort of my area of the house. I can look up at it from where I sit now.

            Since the coming home from work last Friday night, I have been sick with influenza. I went straight to bed and was so miserable that I stayed there continuously except to urinate until Sunday at noon. I thought that I would make it back to work today, but I still have a nagging cough that I do not think that my callers or the people with whom I work want to hear. I hope to be able to make it tomorrow.

            Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...> wrote:
            Hi Quenton and thank you for that heartfelt message. I think many of us "feel" the war as well as read about it. Battlefields of any sort are special places, and I think many of us afree on that point too. As a veteran who has seen modern battlefields you have an additional and perhaps deeper understanding of the horror or war in general and can empathize with the savagery of Civil War combat. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and seeing your participation in this group.

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College

            >>> Mark Holt <que182001@...> 03/07/07 12:30 AM >>>

            To All:

            I am Quentin Holt of Renton, Washington State. I have been an amateur historian since deep into my childhood, and I am now 58 years old. I am well-read and widely traveled and have a lifelong penchant for thinking for myself. I am a male-type person and have never been into emotional breakdowns or serious failures to function. I was nearly a dozen years between the National Guard and the Army Reserve. I am a graduate of the Infantry School at Fort Benning.

            In November of 1990, my Army Reserve unit, the 889th Supply and Service Company, Great Falls, Montana was mobilized for active duty in Desert Shield. When the company was demobilized from Desert Storm six months later, I was without military responsibilities for two and a half months, without a civilian job, and without an address. What I did have was a lot of freedom, free time, and long green. It was the perfect combination to visit some places that I had wanted to visit all my life but lacked either the time or the money or both.

            One of those places was Sharpsburg. Others were the Smithsonian, Gettysburg, Crampton's Gap, Harper's Ferry, The Kennedy Farm, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, The Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Guiney Station, and Ford's Theater. Others still were a lady in New Jersey, whom I had met in Arabia, and the beach at Sandy Hook. I was single then.

            When I visited the blood-soaked, ghost-haunted battlefields of the War, I felt like I was like most other tourists there except that I may have been more knowledgeable about the history of the War and that I was alone in my visits. Like most any caring and decent person, I was also saddened by the ways that Americans used to regard and treat one another, but it did not go beyond the normal at the time.

            After about a month, I finished my road trip, returned to Great Falls, Montana, stayed there a weekend to recover from a cold, and then moved to where I am now. Following that, I got a job like the one that I had trained for in Montana but could not get there, joined a new Army Reserve Unit, got a better job, and acquired a wife (my first and the one that I have now).

            On my visits to the battlefields, particularly The Wilderness and Harper's Ferry but all of them more or less, I felt a heaviness that I cannot describe and have never felt anywhere else. Some element of what is there has seemingly penetrated my being and has made me different. Perhaps it is for the better, but I am certainly not more comfortable.

            Before the trip, my thoughts about the War were that it was (1) not God's judgment on America for anything but only the direct result of people who wanted it to happen and what they did to make it happen; (2) horrible, cruel, tragic, and awful beyond comprehension; (3) pseudo-justified by lies and vicious propaganda; (4) by the general public, even more misunderstood now than then; (5) started by the National Government and (6) that as an ordinary, freedom-loving American, I lost when the federal invasion was completed and started to lose even when it began. The War was the epoch when the National Government started to transform exponentially from what it was meant to be by the Founding Fathers into what it is now.

            After the trip, the things that I had earlier thought about the War were and are now things that I feel deeply on an an emotional level. It seems especially that some relatively tiny measure of the terror, sadness, pain, and disgust that permeated the atmosphere at Sharpsburg on and after September 17, 1862 and the other battlefields just sort of attached itself to my soul like a cockle burr might attach to the bottom of my pants. Unlike something physical, I cannot pull it out. Time has not lessened the effect of it.

            It is not like someone might feel when he sits through a sad movie or hears a sad story. In those cases, the listener thinks through the story, empathizes with one or more of the characters, and then feels the pain that they think that they would feel if they were in the situation in real life. It is more like the pain was poured directly from one bucket into another, or more proportionately, like my bucket was added to directly by a spigot attached to the bottom of Grand Coulee Dam. I feel it now. My eyes pour tears as I type this. I feel it when I hear crap idolizing President Lincoln or the other principal figures who decided to instigate the War or some blasphemous song of the period written to promote the armed invasion of the South.

            At work I receive calls all day from former hospital patients and their family members about their accounts. I did all right, considering the complexity of it all and my newness on the job, until my first call last Friday. The man responsible for the $400-some debt told me that his wife had died ten months ago. Normally, I would just verbally express my regret and otherwise say and do what I am required by my employer to say and do and then would just casually go onto the next call. However, this time I could directly feel the man's emotional pain (and it was and is very considerable). It just poured right into me immediately like it was being dumped from one bucket into another. It did not come by empathizing with him or consciously thinking about how he must feel. It did not generate within me at all. It was his pain generated within him and transmitted telepathically into me just as easily and quickly and completely as his voice was being transmitted into my
            earpiece. I could hardly function for the next call, and my supervisor, seeing me from a distance, stopped by to ask what was wrong. It was hard to explain, and I might have come off looking like a quiet mental case on the edge of not functioning on the job.

            All of this brings me to the point of my joining this group and writing this post. Do I need to find some way (can't imagine how) to just straighten up and get over it, or are there any of you who are going through or went through anything like this because of your visits to such places as Sharpsburg?

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          • Quentin Holt
            ... To T.R. Livesey and All: Yes, it was a strange kind of a freedom that allowed someone to own someone else. I gave it a lot of thought when I was a child
            Message 5 of 29 , Mar 7, 2007
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              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> wrote:
              >
              To T.R. Livesey and All:

              Yes, it was a strange kind of a freedom that allowed someone to own
              someone else. I gave it a lot of thought when I was a child because
              I was very often treated and made to feel like I was solidly owned
              by my parents and strictly for their purposes. I did not have a
              pleasant childhood at all mostly because of that situation and
              matters related to it.

              Do you know that all 13 of the original states of the United States
              were slave states when the Constitution was ratified? Some of them,
              like the New England and mid-Atlantic states later abolished slavery
              by state law. Many people in the South did not like slavery either,
              but what were they going to do? It was like having a tiger by the
              tail. You wish that you didn't, but you don't dare let go. It was
              unsettling to say the least. Generally speaking, I think that we
              should be very cautious about judging people of one era of history by
              the standards of a later era. We can only guess what people a
              century and a half from now will think of us.

              The War was, generally speaking, not much kinder to Negroes than it
              was to other people. For one thing, many of those who joined the
              Federal Army's colored units died from wounds and disease just like
              men in the other units. Worst of all and least generally known in
              modern times was that there were untold tens or hundreds of thousands
              of freed slaves who died from malnutition, unsanitary conditions, bad
              water, disease, and violence throughout the devastated portions of
              South after the War. They tended to gather in squalid camps by
              rivers and just die there unreported and unrecorded in this world.
              Most Negroes who had an opportunity to stay where they were before
              the War and continue what they were doing were happy to choose to
              stay.

              When the awful "Reconstruction" era subsided in 1876, Negroes really
              felt the anger of the white South taken out on them. We all know the
              story well.

              In our day I look around me and I think I can see the "curious
              institution" of slavery returning in another form. Is it not a form
              of slavery when one must work from January 2 until a late May or
              June "Tax Freedom Day" just to pay his or her federal, state, and
              local taxes? Then one can have the rest of the year's income to
              support self, family, and church. Here in King County, Washington,
              we have a County Executive and a majority on the County Council who,
              like other "liberals," have the attitude that people like Iris and I
              exist only to provide limitless revenue for every fool boondoggle and
              government extravagance that their fertile minds can imagine. As if
              we had it!

              For my part, as I would not wish to be a slave, neither would I wish
              to hold someone else in bondage.

              Quentin Mark Holt




              When I visit battlefields, I too am saddened by the ways that
              Americans used to
              > regard and treat one another. Specifically, I am saddened how it
              was once thought
              > that it was OK, or normal, or even good, that people of one race
              could own as
              > property the people of another race. I do take some comfort in the
              fact that the
              > mess that the Founding Fathers left was eventually repaired, and
              their ideals had
              > a chance to be realized.
              >
              > T.R. Livesey
              > tlivesey@...
              >
              > On Tue Mar 6 23:30 , Mark Holt <que182001@...> sent:
              >
              > >To All:
              > >
              > > I am Quentin Holt of Renton, Washington State. I have been an
              amateur
              > historian since deep into my childhood, and I am now 58 years old.
              I am
              > well-read and widely traveled and have a lifelong penchant for
              thinking for
              > myself. I am a male-type person and have never been into emotional
              breakdowns or
              > serious failures to function. I was nearly a dozen years between
              the National
              > Guard and the Army Reserve. I am a graduate of the Infantry School
              at Fort Benning.
              > >
              > .
              > .
              > .
              > > When I visited the blood-soaked, ghost-haunted battlefields of
              the War, I felt
              > like I was like most other tourists there except that I may have
              been more
              > knowledgeable about the history of the War and that I was alone in
              my visits.
              > Like most any caring and decent person, I was also saddened by the
              ways that
              > Americans used to regard and treat one another, but it did not go
              beyond the
              > normal at the time.
              > >
              >
            • Brian Downey
              Greetings Quentin, Among many more significant things, you wrote ... A Landscape Turned Red by Stephen W. Sears... is the complete story of the
              Message 6 of 29 , Mar 8, 2007
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                Greetings Quentin,

                Among many more significant things, you wrote "... A Landscape Turned
                Red by Stephen W. Sears... is the complete story of the
                Sharpsburg/Antietam campaign."

                To me, "the complete story" implies Landscape Turned Red is singularly
                authoritative or particularly comprehensive. I don't think it is
                either. But then, I don't know that any single work could be.

                I'd be curious to hear more of your view of the book.

                Brian

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Mark Holt <que182001@...> wrote:
                >
                > To Thomas Klemons and All,
                >

                No "K" in Clemens!
              • James W. Durney
                ... I would be inclined to require more than one book on Antietam. The battle has not produced a Coddington , that I know of. Joseph Harsh has done some
                Message 7 of 29 , Mar 8, 2007
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                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Greetings Quentin,
                  >
                  > Among many more significant things, you wrote "... A Landscape Turned
                  > Red by Stephen W. Sears... is the complete story of the
                  > Sharpsburg/Antietam campaign."
                  >
                  > To me, "the complete story" implies Landscape Turned Red is singularly
                  > authoritative or particularly comprehensive. I don't think it is
                  > either. But then, I don't know that any single work could be.
                  >
                  > I'd be curious to hear more of your view of the book.
                  >
                  > Brian
                  >

                  I would be inclined to require more than one book on Antietam. The
                  battle has not produced a "Coddington", that I know of. Joseph Harsh
                  has done some very detailed work and that needs to be mentioned. Nor
                  do I think we can dismiss John Priest's book. I agree Sears is the
                  best read of the bunch.

                  James
                • Thomas Clemens
                  I d agree that Sears is very well written. Would also agree that no single volume is definitive, however I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his
                  Message 8 of 29 , Mar 8, 2007
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                    I'd agree that Sears is very well written. Would also agree that no single volume is definitive, however I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would be definitive. But very long.



                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College



                    >>> "James W. Durney" JWD2044@...> 03/08/07 1:56 PM >>

                    I would be inclined to require more than one book on Antietam. The
                    battle has not produced a "Coddington", that I know of. Joseph Harsh
                    has done some very detailed work and that needs to be mentioned. Nor
                    do I think we can dismiss John Priest's book. I agree Sears is the
                    best read of the bunch.

                    James





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • James W. Durney
                    ... the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would be definitive. But very long. ... I would only argue it would be very very very long.
                    Message 9 of 29 , Mar 8, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
                      the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would be
                      definitive. But very long.
                      >
                      >

                      I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
                      of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.

                      James
                    • T.R.Livesey
                      ... This tiger by the tail thing is a bunch of nonsense. None of the major conflicts over slavery were about slavery in the south; it was all about slavery
                      Message 10 of 29 , Mar 9, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Thu Mar 8 0:57 , 'Quentin Holt' que182001@...> sent:

                        >--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey wrote:
                        >>
                        >To T.R. Livesey and All:
                        >
                        >
                        >Do you know that all 13 of the original states of the United States
                        >were slave states when the Constitution was ratified? Some of them,
                        >like the New England and mid-Atlantic states later abolished slavery
                        >by state law. Many people in the South did not like slavery either,
                        >but what were they going to do? It was like having a tiger by the
                        >tail. You wish that you didn't, but you don't dare let go. It was
                        >unsettling to say the least. Generally speaking, I think that we
                        >should be very cautious about judging people of one era of history by
                        >the standards of a later era. We can only guess what people a
                        >century and a half from now will think of us.

                        This 'tiger by the tail' thing is a bunch of nonsense. None of the major
                        conflicts over slavery were about slavery in the south; it was all about slavery
                        in the west (Missouri Compromise, Kansas-Nebraska, etc), slavery in the north
                        (Dred Scott) and slavery in the Capital. No matter how ‘dangerous’, volatile, or
                        explosive slavery might be, its supporters were bent on spreading it to every
                        region of the country. Lincoln made this argument in his debates with Douglas:
                        if a man had something dangerous, toxic, and explosive in your in one part of
                        your house, why would you want to spread it everywhere in your house? If you
                        bought a new house, why would you bring the dangerous, explosive, toxic thing
                        into the new house? And if some of the toxic substance leaked onto your
                        neighbor’s property, why would you demand a law that made your neighbor obligated
                        to help you scoop up the toxic substance and bring it back to your house? If you
                        tolerate something only because you don’t know what to do with it, your don’t
                        turn around and try to grow it and make it flourish.

                        That aside, the historical record proves that slavery was not a tiger by the
                        tail. After all, emancipation eventually did happen, and the tiger got let go.
                        There were no widespread reprisals of blacks on whites, except in the imagination
                        of the authors of "Birth of a Nation".

                        As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you saying that
                        respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th century? They
                        lived under 'all men are created equal', just like we do. I think if the George
                        Wallaces of the world thought a little bit less about their immediate interests
                        and a little more about how the future will judge them, the world would be a much
                        better place.


                        >
                        >
                        >In our day I look around me and I think I can see the "curious
                        >institution" of slavery returning in another form. Is it not a form
                        >of slavery when one must work from January 2 until a late May or
                        >June "Tax Freedom Day" just to pay his or her federal, state, and
                        >local taxes? Then one can have the rest of the year's income to
                        >support self, family, and church. Here in King County, Washington,
                        >we have a County Executive and a majority on the County Council who,
                        >like other "liberals," have the attitude that people like Iris and I
                        >exist only to provide limitless revenue for every fool boondoggle and
                        >government extravagance that their fertile minds can imagine. As if
                        >we had it!
                        >

                        We don't discuss modern politics in this group.

                        T.R. Livesey
                        tlivesey@...
                      • James W. Durney
                        ... saying that ... century? TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a resounding YES . Read The Harp and the Eagle by Susannah Ural
                        Message 11 of 29 , Mar 9, 2007
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                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you
                          saying that
                          > respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th
                          century?

                          TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a
                          resounding 'YES'. Read "The Harp and the Eagle" by Susannah Ural
                          Bruce. BTW, the Germans were not a great deal better off bur that side
                          of my family didn't come to America until after the war.

                          James
                        • T.R.Livesey
                          Aspiring to something is different than actually practising it. Or, failing in something doesn t mean you never meant to succeed. Atrocities continue to the
                          Message 12 of 29 , Mar 9, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Aspiring to something is different than actually practising it. Or, failing in
                            something doesn't mean you never meant to succeed. Atrocities continue to the
                            present day, and probably will continue forever. Does that prove that there is no
                            such thing as respect for human dignity?

                            T.R. Livesey
                            tlivesey@...

                            On Fri Mar 9 18:26 , 'James W. Durney' <JWD2044@...> sent:

                            >--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey wrote:
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you
                            >saying that
                            >> respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th
                            >century?
                            >
                            >TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a
                            >resounding 'YES'. Read "The Harp and the Eagle" by Susannah Ural
                            >Bruce. BTW, the Germans were not a great deal better off bur that side
                            >of my family didn't come to America until after the war.
                            >
                            >James
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                          • Mark Holt
                            Human dignity was a big thing in the 19th century. Many slaves were treated not only with dignity but with love. This was especially true in relationships in
                            Message 13 of 29 , Mar 10, 2007
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                              Human dignity was a big thing in the 19th century. Many slaves were treated not only with dignity but with love. This was especially true in relationships in which only one or a very few slaves belonged to a family. People who were mean to slaves were, more often than not, just mean in general. A person who was good to slaves was, more often than not, good to animals, family, and neighbors.

                              I believe that, when I come before God's judgment, my being a non-slave-owner will be of minor import. What will really matter is how I treated all people around me.

                              "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> wrote:
                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > As for your comment about judging people by our standards, are you
                              saying that
                              > respect for basic human dignity was not a standard of the 19th
                              century?

                              TR, my Irish family history will answer your question with a
                              resounding 'YES'. Read "The Harp and the Eagle" by Susannah Ural
                              Bruce. BTW, the Germans were not a great deal better off bur that side
                              of my family didn't come to America until after the war.

                              James








                              test'; ">

                              ---------------------------------
                              Don't pick lemons.
                              See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Brian Downey
                              Greetings friends, The recent discussion topic about slavery is well outside the scope and charter of this goup. Besides, you all know where it ll go... Not
                              Message 14 of 29 , Mar 10, 2007
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                                Greetings friends,

                                The recent discussion topic about slavery is well outside the scope
                                and charter of this goup. Besides, you all know where it'll go...

                                Not that it isn't an important subject, or that we don't all have a
                                right to say what we think, just that the conversation belongs elsewhere.

                                I'd be happy to point the interested to other internet groups which
                                are appropriate for that subject. I'd also be glad to have private
                                email from anyone who'd like to talk about it further.

                                Thanks,
                                Brian
                              • robert blama
                                I agree, I ususally dont say much
                                Message 15 of 29 , Mar 11, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I agree, I ususally dont say much< i just listend and pick up great info but I want it concentrated on Antietam, Would discuss other topics in another forum.

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Brian Downey
                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:45 AM
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Off topic posting reminder


                                  Greetings friends,

                                  The recent discussion topic about slavery is well outside the scope
                                  and charter of this goup. Besides, you all know where it'll go...

                                  Not that it isn't an important subject, or that we don't all have a
                                  right to say what we think, just that the conversation belongs elsewhere.

                                  I'd be happy to point the interested to other internet groups which
                                  are appropriate for that subject. I'd also be glad to have private
                                  email from anyone who'd like to talk about it further.

                                  Thanks,
                                  Brian





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Adam Zimmerli
                                  I have to say I m a fan of Joe Harsh s trilogy, but as far as a definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman s study will be coming out this summer (at a thousand
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                    definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                                    this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
                                    > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
                                    be
                                    > definitive. But very long.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
                                    > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                                    >
                                    > James
                                    >
                                  • mfitz54@aol.com
                                    I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen s writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him. He did talk about how he
                                      wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work would have been
                                      a major source.
                                      How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.

                                      Mike Fitzpatrick


                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: azimmerli@...
                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
                                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                                      I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                      definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                                      this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
                                      > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
                                      be
                                      > definitive. But very long.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read some
                                      > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                                      >
                                      > James
                                      >



                                      ________________________________________________________________________
                                      AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • G E Mayers
                                      Mike, Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete his project on
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
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                                        Mike,

                                        Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                                        complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                                        his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

                                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                        one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                                        passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                                        God. --Anonymous
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: <mfitz54@...>
                                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                                        >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
                                        >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
                                        >He did talk about how he
                                        > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
                                        > would have been
                                        > a major source.
                                        > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
                                        >
                                        > Mike Fitzpatrick
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: azimmerli@...
                                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
                                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                        > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                                        > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                                        >
                                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                        >> wrote:
                                        >> >
                                        >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                                        >> > on
                                        >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                                        >> would
                                        > be
                                        >> definitive. But very long.
                                        >> >
                                        >> >
                                        >>
                                        >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                                        >> some
                                        >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                                        >>
                                        >> James
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________________________________________________
                                        > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                                        > free from AOL at AOL.com.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • G E Mayers
                                        Dear Adam, The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on an
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Adam,

                                          The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as less
                                          than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate on
                                          an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
                                          qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.

                                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                          one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                                          passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                                          God. --Anonymous
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                                          I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                          definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                                          this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).

                                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work on
                                          > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they would
                                          be
                                          > definitive. But very long.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                                          > some
                                          > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                                          >
                                          > James
                                          >
                                        • mfitz54@aol.com
                                          Thank you. I m very sorry to hear that. Mike ... From: gerry1952@verizon.net To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM Subject: Re:
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Thank you. I'm very sorry to hear that.

                                            Mike

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: gerry1952@...
                                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                                            Mike,

                                            Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                                            complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                                            his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.

                                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                            one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                                            passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                                            God. --Anonymous
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: <mfitz54@...>
                                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:44 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                                            >I was at a seminar on Antietam at which Joe Harsh spoke and he talked
                                            >about how invaluable Ezra Carmen's writings on Antietam were to him.
                                            >He did talk about how he
                                            > wanted to write the Union side of the battle in which Carmen's work
                                            > would have been
                                            > a major source.
                                            > How is Mr. Harsh? I understand he had been ill.
                                            >
                                            > Mike Fitzpatrick
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: azimmerli@...
                                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:21 AM
                                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                            > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                                            > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                                            >
                                            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                            >> wrote:
                                            >> >
                                            >> > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                                            >> > on
                                            >> the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                                            >> would
                                            > be
                                            >> definitive. But very long.
                                            >> >
                                            >> >
                                            >>
                                            >> I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                                            >> some
                                            >> of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                                            >>
                                            >> James
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > __________________________________________________________
                                            > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                                            > free from AOL at AOL.com.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >



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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • James W. Durney
                                            Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books? James
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                                              James

                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: gerry1952@...
                                              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                                              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Mike,
                                              >
                                              > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                                              > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                                              > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                                              >
                                            • G E Mayers
                                              Dear James, The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not sure. Yr.
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Apr 8, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Dear James,

                                                The only possible way I know of might be to send a book of his to the
                                                publisher and ask them to forward to him for signature, but am not
                                                sure.

                                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                                one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                                                passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                                                God. --Anonymous
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:27 PM
                                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                                                Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                                                James

                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: gerry1952@...
                                                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                                                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Mike,
                                                >
                                                > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                                                > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                                                > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                                                >
                                              • Thomas Clemens
                                                Yes, but he doesn t travel much. You d most likely need to call him and go to his house. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him and go to his house.


                                                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                  Professor of History
                                                  Hagerstown Community College



                                                  >>> "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> 04/08/07 8:27 PM >>>

                                                  Anyone know if it is possible to get him to sign his books?

                                                  James

                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: gerry1952@...
                                                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Sent: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:41 PM
                                                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Mike,
                                                  >
                                                  > Joe Harsh suffered a stroke a few years ago which, along with
                                                  > complications from diabetes, made it impossible for him to complete
                                                  > his project on McClellan and the Army of the Potomac.
                                                  >





                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • James W. Durney
                                                  ... and go to his house. ... Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to get them signed. James
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Apr 9, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Yes, but he doesn't travel much. You'd most likely need to call him
                                                    and go to his house.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                    > Professor of History
                                                    > Hagerstown Community College

                                                    Would you email me off-line, I have all of his books and would like to
                                                    get them signed.

                                                    James
                                                  • joseph_pierro
                                                    Dear Adam (and Gerry): There seems to be a little confusion about this book. It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was written soem
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jun 23, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                                                      There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                                                      It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman was
                                                      written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it remains an
                                                      unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is the
                                                      (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own 1,400
                                                      page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of pages;
                                                      my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                                                      As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                                                      that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to this
                                                      day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to say
                                                      it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted when
                                                      standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a modern
                                                      work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                                                      interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                                                      Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the battle
                                                      ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth of
                                                      that statement.

                                                      Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree with
                                                      everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                                                      coming to grips with his work at some point.

                                                      Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been an
                                                      exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                                                      have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                                                      agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants (though
                                                      owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational study.

                                                      I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                                                      otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five people
                                                      have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                                                      themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                                                      improve once he sees it. ;)

                                                      --Joseph Pierro
                                                      Hanover Co., Va.

                                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Dear Adam,
                                                      >
                                                      > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to as
                                                      less
                                                      > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his Doctorate
                                                      on
                                                      > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best person
                                                      > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                                                      >
                                                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                                      >
                                                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                                      > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union,
                                                      a
                                                      > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                                                      Almighty
                                                      > God. --Anonymous
                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                      > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                                                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                                                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                                      > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be coming out
                                                      > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@>
                                                      > wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                                      > > wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume work
                                                      on
                                                      > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy, they
                                                      would
                                                      > be
                                                      > > definitive. But very long.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having read
                                                      > > some
                                                      > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > James
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • G E Mayers
                                                      Dear Joseph, I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian of the Battle of
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Dear Joseph,

                                                        I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                                                        which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                                                        of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                                                        carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                                                        veterans of both sides.

                                                        Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                                                        was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                                                        literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                                                        muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                                                        training"!!!!), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                                                        facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                                                        to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                                                        about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                                                        is not without its flaws.

                                                        Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                                                        titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg", which can be purchased
                                                        in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                                                        paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                                                        a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                                                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                                                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                                                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam


                                                        Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                                                        There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                                                        It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                                                        was
                                                        written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                                                        remains an
                                                        unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                                                        the
                                                        (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                                                        1,400
                                                        page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                                                        pages;
                                                        my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                                                        As for it being "less than definitive"--well, it is THE narrative
                                                        that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                                                        this
                                                        day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                                                        say
                                                        it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                                                        when
                                                        standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                                                        modern
                                                        work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                                                        interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                                                        Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                                                        battle
                                                        ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                                                        of
                                                        that statement.

                                                        Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                                                        with
                                                        everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                                                        coming to grips with his work at some point.

                                                        Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                                                        an
                                                        exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                                                        have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                                                        agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                                                        (though
                                                        owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operational
                                                        study.

                                                        I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                                                        otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                                                        people
                                                        have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                                                        themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                                                        improve once he sees it. ;)

                                                        --Joseph Pierro
                                                        Hanover Co., Va.

                                                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                                        wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Dear Adam,
                                                        >
                                                        > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                                                        > as
                                                        less
                                                        > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                                                        > Doctorate
                                                        on
                                                        > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                                                        > person
                                                        > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                                                        >
                                                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                                        >
                                                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                        > on
                                                        > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                        > Union,
                                                        a
                                                        > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                                                        Almighty
                                                        > God. --Anonymous
                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                        > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...>
                                                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                                                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                                        > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                                                        > coming out
                                                        > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney"
                                                        > <JWD2044@>
                                                        > wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                                        > > <clemenst@>
                                                        > > wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                                                        > > > work
                                                        on
                                                        > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                                                        > > they
                                                        would
                                                        > be
                                                        > > definitive. But very long.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                                                        > > read
                                                        > > some
                                                        > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                                                        > > James
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                      • Joseph Pierro
                                                        Dear Gerry: Please call me Jake. All my friends do. My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jun 24, 2007
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Dear Gerry:

                                                          Please call me Jake. All my friends do.

                                                          My apologies if i misquoted your earlier statement. As I read the post, someone made reference to the "about to be published" Carman manuscript as "the definitive work.

                                                          Your statement in reply was something on the lines of "hardly definitive"--which I took as a remark upon my job of EDITING it. I see that you meant to refer to Carman's manuscript itself.

                                                          To which, I concur that Carman is HARDLY the last work on the subject. In fact, he owes (and openly acknowledges) quite a debt to Palfrey (quoting him verbatim and at length in many passages) and other contemporaries. In that regard, I am not aware of ANY author who has written all that can be said on Antietam. (I'm hard pressed to think of any historian who has done that for ANY Civil War battle.)

                                                          I think the word "definitive" sprang up in this conversation as a result of my use of the word in the subtitle to my edition of Carman. Marketing cache aside, I used the term in its literal sense. Carman's manuscript represnets the sum total of his reserach into the battle--research which formed the basis of the "official narrative" of Antietam as constructed by the Battlefield Board, and which has served--on some level--as the basis for all subsequent histories of the fight.

                                                          Consciously or not, everyone who writes on Antietam is in some way beginning with Carman. The govenrment's account of the battle--as expressed not only in print, but in the layout of Antietam National Battlefield itself, in what was presevred and what was omitted, what was foregrounded and what was relegated to the sidelines--is the narrative Carman constructed for them.

                                                          Which is to say (a point I express in my introduction) that Carman's work has "defined" all subsequent research. It's the baseline to which others historians have either adhered or deviated--but, by definition, they have never worked in isolation from it.

                                                          As for its flaws, I am the first to admit there are boths errors of fact and errors of interpretation in Carman's work. (So too with every history.)

                                                          I go back to my use of the word "baseline." I for one would never argue that Carman's work (by which I refer to the sum of his inquiries into Antietam, of which the Maryland Campaign is but one expression) is (or ever intended to be) the "last" word on the subject. I would argue, however, that it is, if not the FIRST word, the most influential on the subsequent course of Antietam historiography.



                                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                                          From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@...>
                                                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:39:12 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                                                          Dear Joseph,

                                                          I think I understand now what you meant in your previous email to
                                                          which I responded. Carman was the unofficial official Historian
                                                          of the Battle of Antietam for the Battlefield Board and as such
                                                          carried on a most exhaustive correspondence with surviving
                                                          veterans of both sides.

                                                          Being himself also a veteran of the fighting at Antietam where he
                                                          was colonel of the Thirteenth New Jersey, a nine month unit which
                                                          literally learned how to go through the motions of loading its
                                                          muskets under Confederate fire (talk about "on the job
                                                          training"!!! !), Carman had a personal interest in getting the
                                                          facts right. I agree with you that Carman's manuscript continues
                                                          to remain one of the highest sources for primary information
                                                          about the battle but, like most all documentation, the manuscript
                                                          is not without its flaws.

                                                          Another very worthwhile work is that authored by Francis Palfrey
                                                          titled "The Antietam and Fredericksburg" , which can be purchased
                                                          in paperback form. IIRC Stephen Sears did the introduction to the
                                                          paperback edition. I have the book and have read it and found it
                                                          a very good source and containing much valuable information.

                                                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com>
                                                          To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                                                          Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:05 PM
                                                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam

                                                          Dear Adam (and Gerry):

                                                          There seems to be a little confusion about this book.

                                                          It is not a study ABOUT Carman or his work (a biography of Carman
                                                          was
                                                          written soem years ago by a student of Joe Harsh's, but it
                                                          remains an
                                                          unpublished thesis); the book Adam appears to be referencing is
                                                          the
                                                          (soon to be) published and annotated edition of Carman's own
                                                          1,400
                                                          page manuscript (Tom Clemens and I differ as to the number of
                                                          pages;
                                                          my count comes in a little over 1,400.)

                                                          As for it being "less than definitive"- -well, it is THE narrative
                                                          that has shaped the park's own interpretation of the battle to
                                                          this
                                                          day. Murfin, Sears, and Harsh all rely upon it. Which is not to
                                                          say
                                                          it doesn't have its problems (it IS a 100 year old work, crafted
                                                          when
                                                          standards of scholarship weren't as fixed and rigorous as a
                                                          modern
                                                          work faces), but even those wirters who disagree with Carman's
                                                          interpretations first begin by taking him head-on. In Landscape
                                                          Turned Red, Sears called it the most detailed history of the
                                                          battle
                                                          ever written. Nothing has changed since then to alter the truth
                                                          of
                                                          that statement.

                                                          Carman's a bit like Freeman in that regard--writers can disagree
                                                          with
                                                          everythign he said, but they can't write on the subject without
                                                          coming to grips with his work at some point.

                                                          Had Dr. Harsh continued his series, I'd would no doubt have been
                                                          an
                                                          exhaustive campaign study. I question, however, whether he would
                                                          have gone into the tactical specificity Carman provided. I would
                                                          agree that Harsh's work--even in its current state--supplants
                                                          (though
                                                          owes a debt to) Carman's as a large-unit, strategic/operation al
                                                          study.

                                                          I'm not sure how Gerry might have heard anything--positive or
                                                          otherwise--about it, as it hasn't yet reached print. (Five
                                                          people
                                                          have seen my edition to date. I'll let their reactions speak for
                                                          themselves on the book's Amazon page.) Perhaps his opinion will
                                                          improve once he sees it. ;)

                                                          --Joseph Pierro
                                                          Hanover Co., Va.

                                                          --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@. ..>
                                                          wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Dear Adam,
                                                          >
                                                          > The book which you refer to about Carman has been referred to
                                                          > as
                                                          less
                                                          > than a definitive study. Dr. Thomas Clemens, who won his
                                                          > Doctorate
                                                          on
                                                          > an annotation of the Carman work, would be probably the best
                                                          > person
                                                          > qualified for a definitive work on the Carman manuscript.
                                                          >
                                                          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                                          >
                                                          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                          > on
                                                          > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                          > Union,
                                                          a
                                                          > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the
                                                          Almighty
                                                          > God. --Anonymous
                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                          > From: "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@. ..>
                                                          > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                                                          > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:21 AM
                                                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Complete Story of Antietam
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > I have to say I'm a fan of Joe Harsh's trilogy, but as far as a
                                                          > definitive study, I hear that Ezra Carman's study will be
                                                          > coming out
                                                          > this summer (at a thousand pages and a hundred dollars).
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "James W. Durney"
                                                          > <JWD2044@>
                                                          > wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                                          > > <clemenst@>
                                                          > > wrote:
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > I would argue that had Joe Harsh finished his multi-volume
                                                          > > > work
                                                          on
                                                          > > the Union perspective, together with Confederate trilogy,
                                                          > > they
                                                          would
                                                          > be
                                                          > > definitive. But very long.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > I would only argue it would be very very very long. Having
                                                          > > read
                                                          > > some
                                                          > > of your work, I hope to see a book on the battle some day> >
                                                          > > James
                                                          > >
                                                          >






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                                                          (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
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                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • Stephen Recker
                                                          I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back because he wasn t sure
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            I just spoke to a buddy of mine that is planning on going to the huge
                                                            Antietam Conference at the end of this month. He was holding back
                                                            because he wasn't sure there was still going to be room for him. I
                                                            checked it out and there is still plenty of room for folks who want to
                                                            attend. I thought I would post a note here about it so that anyone else
                                                            who wanted to go yet hadn't signed up might be assured that the
                                                            opportunity has not passed.

                                                            Info can be found at: www.chambersburgcivilwarseminars.org

                                                            I'm particularly excited to go on John Hoptak's Final Assault walk. He
                                                            says that he is going to go in an area little travelled. Ending, no
                                                            doubt, with a long speech at the monument for the 48th PA ;-)

                                                            Who else is going?

                                                            Stephen Recker
                                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.