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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans

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  • NJ Rebel
    Todd; If you ask Tom Shay about the videos from one of the Antietam anniversary ranger tours, there is a tape he has in which Keith Snyder talks about how
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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      Todd;

      If you ask Tom Shay about the videos from one of the Antietam
      anniversary ranger tours, there is a tape he has in which Keith
      Snyder talks about how cornfields were planted in the mid-19th
      Century.

      Hope this helps.

      Your humble servant,
      Gerry Mayers
      Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
      Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

      "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
      on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
      Edward Lee


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "TR Livesey" <westwood@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 8:49 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans


      > O.G.,
      >
      > I am going to immediately admit that I am not an expert
      > in this field (heh-heh). My statements were based
      > on questions I have put to general historians, none of
      > whom claimed to be agricultural experts.
      >
      > I would not, however, base any conclusions on practices
      > of modern, albeit primitive, farmers. Just because they
      > don't use tractors does not mean that they do it the
      > same way as was done 100 years ago.
      >
      > When you look at a modern cornfield, it is so dense
      > that it provides excellent concealment.
      >
      > Although I'm not certain how a 19th century cornfield
      > would look, but, as I stated, I assume that it also
      > provides a certain degree of concealment as well.
      >
      > Do you have any source particular to 19th century
      > corn farming? I would very much like to hear an
      > authoritative source on the subject.
      >
      > Thanks for your comment -
      >
      > TRL
      > oliverg25@... wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
      > > > David,
      > > >
      > > > > Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly
      as
      > > > dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move
      between.
      > > > This would imply that the corn will have different degrees
      of
      > > > concealment,
      > >
      > > Not So!
      > > Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field.
      Plowing
      > > and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one.
      after
      > > planting there is no need for a horse to go back into the
      field. Also
      > > a horse does not damage the top soil as much as a tractor
      wheel
      > >
      > > Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows
      are
      > > tighter than those of farmers using tractors. Their fields
      are so
      > > tight you can not look down a row.
      > >
      > > This might come through twice when Hotmail gets its act
      together.
      > >
      > > O.G.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > ADVERTISEMENT
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    • NJ Rebel
      David, If you have read Mike Priest s book on the battle, IIRC, the area of The Cornfield has already been trampled down due to the attacks and counter attacks
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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        David,

        If you have read Mike Priest's book on the battle, IIRC, the area
        of The Cornfield has already been trampled down due to the
        attacks and counter attacks back and forth through "the corn".
        There probably would have been some areas in which more of the
        corn would have been standing than others. The famous painting
        about the charge of the First Texas in The Cornfield done by
        Troiani comes to mind. Perhaps that might give you an idea, as
        Don Troiani is very meticulous about the details in his
        paintings.

        Your humble servant,
        Gerry Mayers
        Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
        Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

        "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
        on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
        Edward Lee


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "David Lutton" <dunkerch@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:00 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans


        > GO
        > In your opinion then the corn would have been more tense than
        today? But
        > we must remember that before Hood's troops stepped off roughly
        a hour after
        > the battle started what would this area look like to Hood's
        troops?. What
        > would be the effect of 1 hour of combat be to this relatively
        small area?
        > Hooker's often quoted remark comes to mind.
        >
        > If the original command to protect the flank came south of the
        cornfield,
        > what was happening to Hood's troops started south of the
        cornfield? What do
        > you think?
        >
        > David Litton
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: <oliverg25@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 8:18 PM
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans
        >
        >
        > > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
        > > > David,
        > > >
        > > > > Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly
        as
        > > > dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move
        between.
        > > > This would imply that the corn will have different degrees
        of
        > > > concealment,
        > >
        > > Not So!
        > > Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field.
        Plowing
        > > and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one.
        after
        > > planting there is no need for a horse to go back into the
        field. Also
        > > a horse does not damage the top soil as much as a tractor
        wheel
        > >
        > > Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows
        are
        > > tighter than those of farmers using tractors. Their fields
        are so
        > > tight you can not look down a row.
        > >
        > > This might come through twice when Hotmail gets its act
        together.
        > >
        > > O.G.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > ADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        Service.
        >
        >
      • NJ Rebel
        ... saw its ... believe, ... quote. ... Mark, did not the Ninth Army Corps comprise the bulk of the Federal expeditionary force that attacked and captured New
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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          Mark Plfum wrote earlier:
          > The Ninth Army Corps was formed just before 2nd Bull Run and
          saw its
          > first action under that name in that fight. They were, I
          believe,
          > part of the Army Of Virginia that you mentioned earlier in the
          quote.
          >

          Mark, did not the Ninth Army Corps comprise the bulk of the
          Federal expeditionary force that attacked and captured New Burn
          in North Carolina after landing near Cape Hatteras? I seem to
          recall reading somewhere that this was pretty much the case, as
          old Burnside was the commander of that amphibious expedition.

          > I know you are simply saying Dan'l was of Kentucky fame, but it
          may
          > give the missinformed the impression that he was actually FROM
          > Kentucky. We all know, of course, he was born and raised near
          > Reading, Pennsylvania and his folks were friends of the
          ancestors of
          > a guy named Abraham Lincoln. ;-)
          >
          Your comment about Dan'l Boone is well taken. BTW, what was the
          name of Dan'l's brother?

          Your humble servant,
          Gerry Mayers
          Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
          Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

          "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
          on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
          Edward Lee
        • oliverg25@hotmail.com
          ... Neither am I. I live in Harrisburg. Not too many farms in this city. ... The tractor has evolved over the years. The last time I looked horses were still
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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            --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
            > O.G.,
            >
            > I am going to immediately admit that I am not an expert
            > in this field (heh-heh). My statements were based
            > on questions I have put to general historians, none of
            > whom claimed to be agricultural experts.
            >

            Neither am I. I live in Harrisburg. Not too many farms in this city.

            > I would not, however, base any conclusions on practices
            > of modern, albeit primitive, farmers. Just because they
            > don't use tractors does not mean that they do it the
            > same way as was done 100 years ago.
            >

            The tractor has evolved over the years. The last time I looked horses
            were still the smae as the original model. I don't know any Amish
            farmers personlly but I fail to see where they could possible be any
            different in their farming practices than those of the 19th Century.
            Considering they are using the same equipment.

            >
            > Do you have any source particular to 19th century
            > corn farming? I would very much like to hear an
            > authoritative source on the subject.

            You want me to reincarnate a 19th Century farmer or go knocking on
            doors in South-Central PA?

            One thing you seem to have forgotten is that Hooker ordered the
            cornfield to be raked with canister before any assult began. I don't
            think there was much cover left by the time th texans got there

            Ollie
          • David Lutton
            Ollie, Exactly my point. At this point of the battle the cornfield would have been defestated. Hence the corn would have been a non factor. David Lutton ...
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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              Ollie,

              Exactly my point. At this point of the battle the cornfield would have been
              defestated. Hence the corn would have been a non factor.

              David Lutton
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <oliverg25@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:16 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans


              > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
              > > O.G.,
              > >
              > > I am going to immediately admit that I am not an expert
              > > in this field (heh-heh). My statements were based
              > > on questions I have put to general historians, none of
              > > whom claimed to be agricultural experts.
              > >
              >
              > Neither am I. I live in Harrisburg. Not too many farms in this city.
              >
              > > I would not, however, base any conclusions on practices
              > > of modern, albeit primitive, farmers. Just because they
              > > don't use tractors does not mean that they do it the
              > > same way as was done 100 years ago.
              > >
              >
              > The tractor has evolved over the years. The last time I looked horses
              > were still the smae as the original model. I don't know any Amish
              > farmers personlly but I fail to see where they could possible be any
              > different in their farming practices than those of the 19th Century.
              > Considering they are using the same equipment.
              >
              > >
              > > Do you have any source particular to 19th century
              > > corn farming? I would very much like to hear an
              > > authoritative source on the subject.
              >
              > You want me to reincarnate a 19th Century farmer or go knocking on
              > doors in South-Central PA?
              >
              > One thing you seem to have forgotten is that Hooker ordered the
              > cornfield to be raked with canister before any assult began. I don't
              > think there was much cover left by the time th texans got there
              >
              > Ollie
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • oliverg25@hotmail.com
              ... have been ... David; Precisely! I think someone else also said the cornfield had been trampled before Hood got there. So the corn, or what remained,
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                --- In TalkAntietam@y..., "David Lutton" <dunkerch@c...> wrote:
                > Ollie,
                >
                > Exactly my point. At this point of the battle the cornfield would
                have been
                > defestated. Hence the corn would have been a non factor.
                >
                > David Lutton

                David;

                Precisely!

                I think someone else also said the cornfield had been trampled before
                Hood got there. So the corn, or what remained, provided very little
                cover.

                Ollie
              • TR Livesey
                Ollie, oliverg25@hotmail.com wrote: ... Hooker s account is unreliable. He makes it sound like he mowed down a whole regiment waiting hidden in
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                  Ollie,

                  oliverg25@... wrote:
                  <general snip>
                  >
                  > One thing you seem to have forgotten is that Hooker ordered the
                  > cornfield to be raked with canister before any assult began. I don't
                  > think there was much cover left by the time th texans got there
                  >
                  > Ollie

                  Hooker's account is unreliable. He makes it sound like he mowed down
                  a whole regiment waiting hidden in the cornfield. In fact, when
                  the I corps moved out, there were no significant Confederates in
                  the corn, they were in line south of it.

                  Furthermore, I doubt that Hooker could have possibly irradicated an
                  entire 30 acre cornfield, no matter how much canister he used.
                  Anyway, we are interested here in the southern end of it.

                  TRL
                • Oliver Gamble
                  ... From: TR Livesey To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:14 PM Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Article about Hoods Texans David, Corn
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:14 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Article about Hoods Texans

                    David,

                    Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly as
                    dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move between.
                     
                    Not So!
                    Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field. Plowing and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one.
                     
                    Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows are tighter than those of farmers using tractors.
                     
                     O.G.
                  • Tom Clemens
                    In the 19th Century, they used hills of corn, and check-row pattern allowed a lot of traffic in the cornfields. Think of it and a checkerboard where every
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                      In the 19th Century, they used hills of corn, and check-row pattern allowed a
                      lot of traffic in the cornfields. Think of it and a checkerboard where every
                      corner is a hill of corn. It was usually hand planted, not with horses and
                      machine planters. Bill Christen knows much about it than I do, ask him.


                      oliverg25@... wrote:

                      > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
                      > > David,
                      > >
                      > > > Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly as
                      > > dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move between.
                      > > This would imply that the corn will have different degrees of
                      > > concealment,
                      >
                      > Not So!
                      > Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field. Plowing
                      > and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one. after
                      > planting there is no need for a horse to go back into the field. Also
                      > a horse does not damage the top soil as much as a tractor wheel
                      >
                      > Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows are
                      > tighter than those of farmers using tractors. Their fields are so
                      > tight you can not look down a row.
                      >
                      > This might come through twice when Hotmail gets its act together.
                      >
                      > O.G.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Tom Clemens
                      Squire Boone.
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                        Squire Boone.

                        NJ Rebel wrote:

                        > Your comment about Dan'l Boone is well taken. BTW, what was the
                        > name of Dan'l's brother?
                        >
                        > Your humble servant,
                        > Gerry Mayers
                        > Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                        > Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry
                        >
                        > "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                        > on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                        > Edward Lee
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • NJ Rebel
                        Group; If you have a Preview option on your email program, I recommend you use it. It will allow you to see what attachments are attached before you open the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 28 7:24 PM
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                          Group;

                          If you have a Preview option on your email program, I recommend
                          you use it. It will allow you to see what attachments are
                          attached before you open the email! If you see anything ending
                          with .pif or .bat as an attachment or .exe, DELETE it
                          immediately! (Many viruses come with either of the three
                          extensions.)

                          Also, run Trend Micro Antivirus web based scanning, Norton Anti
                          Virus or any similar program to locate any virus infections you
                          might have and then clean.

                          The KLEZ-G variant worm virus has been running amuck in this
                          group, and already caused one member to have his account delisted
                          by the moderator.

                          Your humble servant,
                          Gerry Mayers
                          Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                          Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

                          A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                          "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                          on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                          Edward Lee


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <oliverg25@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 8:18 PM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans


                          > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
                          > > David,
                          > >
                          > > > Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly
                          as
                          > > dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move
                          between.
                          > > This would imply that the corn will have different degrees of
                          > > concealment,
                          >
                          > Not So!
                          > Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field.
                          Plowing
                          > and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one.
                          after
                          > planting there is no need for a horse to go back into the
                          field. Also
                          > a horse does not damage the top soil as much as a tractor wheel
                          >
                          > Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows
                          are
                          > tighter than those of farmers using tractors. Their fields are
                          so
                          > tight you can not look down a row.
                          >
                          > This might come through twice when Hotmail gets its act
                          together.
                          >
                          > O.G.
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > ADVERTISEMENT
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          Service.
                          >
                          >
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