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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans

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  • TR Livesey
    O.G., I am going to immediately admit that I am not an expert in this field (heh-heh). My statements were based on questions I have put to general historians,
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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      O.G.,

      I am going to immediately admit that I am not an expert
      in this field (heh-heh). My statements were based
      on questions I have put to general historians, none of
      whom claimed to be agricultural experts.

      I would not, however, base any conclusions on practices
      of modern, albeit primitive, farmers. Just because they
      don't use tractors does not mean that they do it the
      same way as was done 100 years ago.

      When you look at a modern cornfield, it is so dense
      that it provides excellent concealment.

      Although I'm not certain how a 19th century cornfield
      would look, but, as I stated, I assume that it also
      provides a certain degree of concealment as well.

      Do you have any source particular to 19th century
      corn farming? I would very much like to hear an
      authoritative source on the subject.

      Thanks for your comment -

      TRL
      oliverg25@... wrote:
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
      > > David,
      > >
      > > > Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly as
      > > dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move between.
      > > This would imply that the corn will have different degrees of
      > > concealment,
      >
      > Not So!
      > Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field. Plowing
      > and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one. after
      > planting there is no need for a horse to go back into the field. Also
      > a horse does not damage the top soil as much as a tractor wheel
      >
      > Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows are
      > tighter than those of farmers using tractors. Their fields are so
      > tight you can not look down a row.
      >
      > This might come through twice when Hotmail gets its act together.
      >
      > O.G.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • NJ Rebel
      Todd; If you ask Tom Shay about the videos from one of the Antietam anniversary ranger tours, there is a tape he has in which Keith Snyder talks about how
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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        Todd;

        If you ask Tom Shay about the videos from one of the Antietam
        anniversary ranger tours, there is a tape he has in which Keith
        Snyder talks about how cornfields were planted in the mid-19th
        Century.

        Hope this helps.

        Your humble servant,
        Gerry Mayers
        Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
        Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

        "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
        on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
        Edward Lee


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "TR Livesey" <westwood@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 8:49 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans


        > O.G.,
        >
        > I am going to immediately admit that I am not an expert
        > in this field (heh-heh). My statements were based
        > on questions I have put to general historians, none of
        > whom claimed to be agricultural experts.
        >
        > I would not, however, base any conclusions on practices
        > of modern, albeit primitive, farmers. Just because they
        > don't use tractors does not mean that they do it the
        > same way as was done 100 years ago.
        >
        > When you look at a modern cornfield, it is so dense
        > that it provides excellent concealment.
        >
        > Although I'm not certain how a 19th century cornfield
        > would look, but, as I stated, I assume that it also
        > provides a certain degree of concealment as well.
        >
        > Do you have any source particular to 19th century
        > corn farming? I would very much like to hear an
        > authoritative source on the subject.
        >
        > Thanks for your comment -
        >
        > TRL
        > oliverg25@... wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
        > > > David,
        > > >
        > > > > Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly
        as
        > > > dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move
        between.
        > > > This would imply that the corn will have different degrees
        of
        > > > concealment,
        > >
        > > Not So!
        > > Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field.
        Plowing
        > > and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one.
        after
        > > planting there is no need for a horse to go back into the
        field. Also
        > > a horse does not damage the top soil as much as a tractor
        wheel
        > >
        > > Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows
        are
        > > tighter than those of farmers using tractors. Their fields
        are so
        > > tight you can not look down a row.
        > >
        > > This might come through twice when Hotmail gets its act
        together.
        > >
        > > O.G.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > ADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        >
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      • David Lutton
        GO In your opinion then the corn would have been more tense than today? But we must remember that before Hood s troops stepped off roughly a hour after the
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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          GO
          In your opinion then the corn would have been more tense than today? But
          we must remember that before Hood's troops stepped off roughly a hour after
          the battle started what would this area look like to Hood's troops?. What
          would be the effect of 1 hour of combat be to this relatively small area?
          Hooker's often quoted remark comes to mind.

          If the original command to protect the flank came south of the cornfield,
          what was happening to Hood's troops started south of the cornfield? What do
          you think?

          David Litton
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <oliverg25@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 8:18 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans


          > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
          > > David,
          > >
          > > > Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly as
          > > dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move between.
          > > This would imply that the corn will have different degrees of
          > > concealment,
          >
          > Not So!
          > Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field. Plowing
          > and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one. after
          > planting there is no need for a horse to go back into the field. Also
          > a horse does not damage the top soil as much as a tractor wheel
          >
          > Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows are
          > tighter than those of farmers using tractors. Their fields are so
          > tight you can not look down a row.
          >
          > This might come through twice when Hotmail gets its act together.
          >
          > O.G.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • NJ Rebel
          David, If you have read Mike Priest s book on the battle, IIRC, the area of The Cornfield has already been trampled down due to the attacks and counter attacks
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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            David,

            If you have read Mike Priest's book on the battle, IIRC, the area
            of The Cornfield has already been trampled down due to the
            attacks and counter attacks back and forth through "the corn".
            There probably would have been some areas in which more of the
            corn would have been standing than others. The famous painting
            about the charge of the First Texas in The Cornfield done by
            Troiani comes to mind. Perhaps that might give you an idea, as
            Don Troiani is very meticulous about the details in his
            paintings.

            Your humble servant,
            Gerry Mayers
            Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
            Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

            "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
            on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
            Edward Lee


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "David Lutton" <dunkerch@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:00 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans


            > GO
            > In your opinion then the corn would have been more tense than
            today? But
            > we must remember that before Hood's troops stepped off roughly
            a hour after
            > the battle started what would this area look like to Hood's
            troops?. What
            > would be the effect of 1 hour of combat be to this relatively
            small area?
            > Hooker's often quoted remark comes to mind.
            >
            > If the original command to protect the flank came south of the
            cornfield,
            > what was happening to Hood's troops started south of the
            cornfield? What do
            > you think?
            >
            > David Litton
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: <oliverg25@...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 8:18 PM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans
            >
            >
            > > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
            > > > David,
            > > >
            > > > > Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly
            as
            > > > dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move
            between.
            > > > This would imply that the corn will have different degrees
            of
            > > > concealment,
            > >
            > > Not So!
            > > Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field.
            Plowing
            > > and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one.
            after
            > > planting there is no need for a horse to go back into the
            field. Also
            > > a horse does not damage the top soil as much as a tractor
            wheel
            > >
            > > Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows
            are
            > > tighter than those of farmers using tractors. Their fields
            are so
            > > tight you can not look down a row.
            > >
            > > This might come through twice when Hotmail gets its act
            together.
            > >
            > > O.G.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
          • NJ Rebel
            ... saw its ... believe, ... quote. ... Mark, did not the Ninth Army Corps comprise the bulk of the Federal expeditionary force that attacked and captured New
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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              Mark Plfum wrote earlier:
              > The Ninth Army Corps was formed just before 2nd Bull Run and
              saw its
              > first action under that name in that fight. They were, I
              believe,
              > part of the Army Of Virginia that you mentioned earlier in the
              quote.
              >

              Mark, did not the Ninth Army Corps comprise the bulk of the
              Federal expeditionary force that attacked and captured New Burn
              in North Carolina after landing near Cape Hatteras? I seem to
              recall reading somewhere that this was pretty much the case, as
              old Burnside was the commander of that amphibious expedition.

              > I know you are simply saying Dan'l was of Kentucky fame, but it
              may
              > give the missinformed the impression that he was actually FROM
              > Kentucky. We all know, of course, he was born and raised near
              > Reading, Pennsylvania and his folks were friends of the
              ancestors of
              > a guy named Abraham Lincoln. ;-)
              >
              Your comment about Dan'l Boone is well taken. BTW, what was the
              name of Dan'l's brother?

              Your humble servant,
              Gerry Mayers
              Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
              Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

              "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
              on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
              Edward Lee
            • oliverg25@hotmail.com
              ... Neither am I. I live in Harrisburg. Not too many farms in this city. ... The tractor has evolved over the years. The last time I looked horses were still
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
                > O.G.,
                >
                > I am going to immediately admit that I am not an expert
                > in this field (heh-heh). My statements were based
                > on questions I have put to general historians, none of
                > whom claimed to be agricultural experts.
                >

                Neither am I. I live in Harrisburg. Not too many farms in this city.

                > I would not, however, base any conclusions on practices
                > of modern, albeit primitive, farmers. Just because they
                > don't use tractors does not mean that they do it the
                > same way as was done 100 years ago.
                >

                The tractor has evolved over the years. The last time I looked horses
                were still the smae as the original model. I don't know any Amish
                farmers personlly but I fail to see where they could possible be any
                different in their farming practices than those of the 19th Century.
                Considering they are using the same equipment.

                >
                > Do you have any source particular to 19th century
                > corn farming? I would very much like to hear an
                > authoritative source on the subject.

                You want me to reincarnate a 19th Century farmer or go knocking on
                doors in South-Central PA?

                One thing you seem to have forgotten is that Hooker ordered the
                cornfield to be raked with canister before any assult began. I don't
                think there was much cover left by the time th texans got there

                Ollie
              • David Lutton
                Ollie, Exactly my point. At this point of the battle the cornfield would have been defestated. Hence the corn would have been a non factor. David Lutton ...
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                  Ollie,

                  Exactly my point. At this point of the battle the cornfield would have been
                  defestated. Hence the corn would have been a non factor.

                  David Lutton
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: <oliverg25@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:16 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans


                  > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
                  > > O.G.,
                  > >
                  > > I am going to immediately admit that I am not an expert
                  > > in this field (heh-heh). My statements were based
                  > > on questions I have put to general historians, none of
                  > > whom claimed to be agricultural experts.
                  > >
                  >
                  > Neither am I. I live in Harrisburg. Not too many farms in this city.
                  >
                  > > I would not, however, base any conclusions on practices
                  > > of modern, albeit primitive, farmers. Just because they
                  > > don't use tractors does not mean that they do it the
                  > > same way as was done 100 years ago.
                  > >
                  >
                  > The tractor has evolved over the years. The last time I looked horses
                  > were still the smae as the original model. I don't know any Amish
                  > farmers personlly but I fail to see where they could possible be any
                  > different in their farming practices than those of the 19th Century.
                  > Considering they are using the same equipment.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Do you have any source particular to 19th century
                  > > corn farming? I would very much like to hear an
                  > > authoritative source on the subject.
                  >
                  > You want me to reincarnate a 19th Century farmer or go knocking on
                  > doors in South-Central PA?
                  >
                  > One thing you seem to have forgotten is that Hooker ordered the
                  > cornfield to be raked with canister before any assult began. I don't
                  > think there was much cover left by the time th texans got there
                  >
                  > Ollie
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • oliverg25@hotmail.com
                  ... have been ... David; Precisely! I think someone else also said the cornfield had been trampled before Hood got there. So the corn, or what remained,
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                    --- In TalkAntietam@y..., "David Lutton" <dunkerch@c...> wrote:
                    > Ollie,
                    >
                    > Exactly my point. At this point of the battle the cornfield would
                    have been
                    > defestated. Hence the corn would have been a non factor.
                    >
                    > David Lutton

                    David;

                    Precisely!

                    I think someone else also said the cornfield had been trampled before
                    Hood got there. So the corn, or what remained, provided very little
                    cover.

                    Ollie
                  • TR Livesey
                    Ollie, oliverg25@hotmail.com wrote: ... Hooker s account is unreliable. He makes it sound like he mowed down a whole regiment waiting hidden in
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                      Ollie,

                      oliverg25@... wrote:
                      <general snip>
                      >
                      > One thing you seem to have forgotten is that Hooker ordered the
                      > cornfield to be raked with canister before any assult began. I don't
                      > think there was much cover left by the time th texans got there
                      >
                      > Ollie

                      Hooker's account is unreliable. He makes it sound like he mowed down
                      a whole regiment waiting hidden in the cornfield. In fact, when
                      the I corps moved out, there were no significant Confederates in
                      the corn, they were in line south of it.

                      Furthermore, I doubt that Hooker could have possibly irradicated an
                      entire 30 acre cornfield, no matter how much canister he used.
                      Anyway, we are interested here in the southern end of it.

                      TRL
                    • Oliver Gamble
                      ... From: TR Livesey To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:14 PM Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Article about Hoods Texans David, Corn
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:14 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Article about Hoods Texans

                        David,

                        Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly as
                        dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move between.
                         
                        Not So!
                        Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field. Plowing and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one.
                         
                        Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows are tighter than those of farmers using tractors.
                         
                         O.G.
                      • Tom Clemens
                        In the 19th Century, they used hills of corn, and check-row pattern allowed a lot of traffic in the cornfields. Think of it and a checkerboard where every
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                          In the 19th Century, they used hills of corn, and check-row pattern allowed a
                          lot of traffic in the cornfields. Think of it and a checkerboard where every
                          corner is a hill of corn. It was usually hand planted, not with horses and
                          machine planters. Bill Christen knows much about it than I do, ask him.


                          oliverg25@... wrote:

                          > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
                          > > David,
                          > >
                          > > > Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly as
                          > > dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move between.
                          > > This would imply that the corn will have different degrees of
                          > > concealment,
                          >
                          > Not So!
                          > Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field. Plowing
                          > and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one. after
                          > planting there is no need for a horse to go back into the field. Also
                          > a horse does not damage the top soil as much as a tractor wheel
                          >
                          > Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows are
                          > tighter than those of farmers using tractors. Their fields are so
                          > tight you can not look down a row.
                          >
                          > This might come through twice when Hotmail gets its act together.
                          >
                          > O.G.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Tom Clemens
                          Squire Boone.
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 27, 2001
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                            Squire Boone.

                            NJ Rebel wrote:

                            > Your comment about Dan'l Boone is well taken. BTW, what was the
                            > name of Dan'l's brother?
                            >
                            > Your humble servant,
                            > Gerry Mayers
                            > Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                            > Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry
                            >
                            > "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                            > on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                            > Edward Lee
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • NJ Rebel
                            Group; If you have a Preview option on your email program, I recommend you use it. It will allow you to see what attachments are attached before you open the
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 28, 2002
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                              Group;

                              If you have a Preview option on your email program, I recommend
                              you use it. It will allow you to see what attachments are
                              attached before you open the email! If you see anything ending
                              with .pif or .bat as an attachment or .exe, DELETE it
                              immediately! (Many viruses come with either of the three
                              extensions.)

                              Also, run Trend Micro Antivirus web based scanning, Norton Anti
                              Virus or any similar program to locate any virus infections you
                              might have and then clean.

                              The KLEZ-G variant worm virus has been running amuck in this
                              group, and already caused one member to have his account delisted
                              by the moderator.

                              Your humble servant,
                              Gerry Mayers
                              Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                              Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

                              A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                              "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                              on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                              Edward Lee


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <oliverg25@...>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 8:18 PM
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Article about Hoods Texans


                              > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., TR Livesey <westwood@e...> wrote:
                              > > David,
                              > >
                              > > > Corn planting patterns were different in 1862, not nearly
                              as
                              > > dense, with rows being wide enough for a horse to move
                              between.
                              > > This would imply that the corn will have different degrees of
                              > > concealment,
                              >
                              > Not So!
                              > Once the corn is planted a horse never goes into the field.
                              Plowing
                              > and planting is usually done with a team of horses, not one.
                              after
                              > planting there is no need for a horse to go back into the
                              field. Also
                              > a horse does not damage the top soil as much as a tractor wheel
                              >
                              > Amish farmers in PA still use horses and mules and their rows
                              are
                              > tighter than those of farmers using tractors. Their fields are
                              so
                              > tight you can not look down a row.
                              >
                              > This might come through twice when Hotmail gets its act
                              together.
                              >
                              > O.G.
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              > ADVERTISEMENT
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                              Service.
                              >
                              >
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