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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Coddington of Antietam

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  • NJ Rebel
    Tom; Sounds like quite a labor there. Good thing Joe Harsh was able to get Carman typescripted. How accurate did you find his information about the specific
    Message 1 of 117 , Mar 1 8:36 AM
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      Tom;

      Sounds like quite a labor there. Good thing Joe Harsh was able to get
      Carman typescripted.

      How accurate did you find his information about the specific Maryland
      Campaign in 1862 pre Antietam battle?

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
      people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
      shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
      Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
      1788

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 11:04 AM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Coddington of Antietam


      > Well I will try not to belabor this issue.
      > Carman was a veteran of th battle, commanding the 13th New Jersey,
      > 12th
      > Corps. He immediately became interested in doing a map and writing
      > a
      > history, and spent time talkingto locals while the army was there.
      > He
      > was on the Board of the Nat'l. Cemetery, and an active amatuer
      > historian
      > for some years after the war. he wrote about all sorts of
      > campaigns,
      > and not just the ones he was in. He was named to the Antietam
      > Battlefield Board in 1892, and served as "historical expert" and was
      > paid to produce a map, a "pamphlet" explaining th battle, lay out
      > roads
      > and place monuments, and provide the text for the cast iron tablets.
      > The battlefield is pretty much the way he designed it to be.
      > His tablets obviously are there, and his map turned into 14
      > time-sequenced maps with great detail. They were produced in
      > assistance
      > with Col. Cope, who worked with Bachelder at Gettysburg.
      > His "pamphlet" turned into an 1,800 page narrative of the campaign
      > from
      > the troubles in MD in 1861 through Oct. of 1862. It is in the
      > Library
      > Congress and is the most detailed study of the campaign and the
      > detail
      > that exists.
      > What I am doing is editing his manuscript, which means mostly trying
      > identify sources he used, since he seldom footnoted, and confirm
      > details, point out errors, etc. I did the first seven chapters for
      > my
      > doctoral dissertation, and that wound up being around 500 typed
      > pages.
      > There are 22 more chapters yet to do. I have a typescript of the
      > whole
      > document, not just he battle chapters which were published by Sid
      > Meirs.
      >
      > Early on in his work he relied heavily on the OR's, Battles and
      > Leaders, and a lot of other published sources. as he got to the
      > battle
      > he began to rely on the letters solicited by the Battlefield Board
      > beginning in 1890, and going through the early years of the
      > Twentieth
      > Century. This wasa huge stumbling block, because I could not
      > continue
      > editing with compiling all these letters into a searchable system.
      > These letters exist in the LOC, NYPL, and mostly in the Nat'l.
      > Archives
      > Antietam Studies files. So far I have a folder for every brigade in
      > both armies and have copied all letters, memos, interviews,
      > pertaining
      > to the commands in those brigades into those folders. To date, I
      > have a
      > pretty good handle on the LOC and NYPL stuff, and am less than half
      > way
      > through the NA letters, and have cataloged over 800 letters, etc.
      > Carman did frequently meet veterans who returned to the field and
      > kept
      > memos of their comments, and even arranged for some people to have
      > expenses covered to come meet with him. Ther are also a huge number
      > of
      > handdrawn and marked up pre-printed maps. When I have all of these
      > documents in a usable system then I will return to editing the
      > manuscript. If I live long enough.
      > When I get this wrapped up I will ask for any Carman Papers out
      > there
      > that are not in my master file. Some just came to light last year
      > ar
      > Drew Univ. when the correspondence with the officer who
      > authenticated SO
      > 191 came to light.
      > I am not very familiar withte Bachelder stuff, I know it is letters
      > from participants, published etc., so will reserve judgment about
      > it. I
      > asked Scott Hartwig about Carman one time, as you proposed, ie. was
      > he
      > the Bachelder of Antietam? Scott paused a moment and said he thought
      > Bachelder was the Carman of Gettysburg. :-)
      > Sorry to take so long with this, but as you can deduce, it is near
      > and
      > dear to my heart. I have no recollection of any specific signal
      > corps
      > stuff, but will keep an eye out for it. Carman was mostly
      > interested
      > data for the tablets and maps, ie. where were the troops and how
      > placed,
      > etc. But there may be references to signal stuff that I do not
      > recall
      > off-hand, or have not yet seen.
      >
      >
      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > Professor of History
      > Hagerstown Community College
      >
      >
      >
      >>>> flagflop@... 3/1/2006 8:50:52 AM >>>
      >
      >
      > Tom,
      >
      > I certainly cannot take issue with the view that "the Coddington of
      > Antietam" has yet to emerge, nor have I gotten into Scott Hartwig's
      > work. And, for that matter, haven't yet picked up (from recent entry
      > into this group) what you are doing with the Carman material (and,
      > when
      > you refer to his manuscript, whether you are referring specifically
      > to
      > his manuscript history of the campaign). But I do have a question
      > for
      > you, which might bring me up to speed quickly.
      >
      > Before there emerged a Coddington, there was a Bachelder. Can you
      > "size
      > up" what Carman (and the Carman papers at LoC) represents for
      > Antietam,
      > by comparison with Col. Bachelder for Gettysburg--for example, the
      > breadth of his correspondence, the duration of his involvement, the
      > depth of detail? Just a gross comparison. My inference is that it is
      > less. My interest is narrowly centered on telecommunications, so I
      > am
      > always interested in "new" information (the older the better), but
      > that
      > interest was not high in contemporary priorities, which tended to
      > concentrate on the combat arms. To put the question another way, is
      > the
      > Carman material such that it might yield three volumes for
      > Morninghside?
      > (Or, to really betray my interest, "did he ever ask questions or
      > receive
      > information about the signal presence?")
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > without its flaws, but provided the basis for
      >> Murfin's work, and Carman had access to Gould's papers, which
      > provided
      >> the sources for a lot of Sears' work. Harsh of course used it
      >> extensively, as does Hartwig. Whatever editing I do will not add
      > much
      >> to Carman, but more explain how and why he wrote what he did, as
      > much
      > as
      >> it can be ascertained from this point in time.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • NJ Rebel
      Tom, Thanks! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers ....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States, may be
      Message 117 of 117 , Mar 2 9:30 AM
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        Tom,

        Thanks!

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
        people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
        shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
        Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
        1788

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 12:24 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Coddington of Antietam


        > No Gerry, strother was no help in that direction, and his account is
        > pretty well known. Strother does verify a Carman sotry about
        > McClellan's headquarters being located in the German Reformed Church
        > in
        > Keedysville from Sept. 15 to the afternoon of the 16. This is the
        > church that is pictured in B&L, and although remodeled i nthe
        > 1890's,
        > still stands today. (I went to Ash Wednesday service there last
        > night)
        > One of their antebellum pastors was Rev. Robert Douglas, father of
        > henry
        > Kyd Douglas.
        > Actually Ethan and I discussed Strother's assertion that McClellan
        > moved his headquarters from the Pry house on the afternoon of the
        > 17th.
        > Hhe concluded, and I agree, that MCClellan and his staff left the
        > house,
        > but hte army HQ was still there until later that night.
        >
        >
        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College
        >
        >
        >
        >>>> gerry1952@... 3/1/2006 9:29:19 PM >>>
        >
        > Thanks Phil.
        >
        > What does "Porte Crayon" actually say in the article? That might be
        > good for Tom to see, especially if it backs up Carman's quote re Lee
        > and then Mac.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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