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The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's Cigar Wrapper)

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  • flagflop
    Has anyone addressed the question of why a Special Order (SO) form was used instead of a General Order(GO)? Some while back an Army brig gen boss heard me
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 23, 2006
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      Has anyone addressed the question of why a Special Order (SO) form
      was used instead of a General Order(GO)?

      Some while back an Army brig gen boss heard me refer to SO 191 and
      challenged me that it was a GO. I respectfully and oh-so-politely
      differed and offered to bring in from home a copy. But, he mused
      aloud, why would it have been done as a Special Order--it was a
      general order for his army? I didn't have a ready answer for
      the "why," just the what. Nor does Joe Harsh seem to address the use
      of the form, in the most penetrating examinations of the order that
      I've seen to date--TATF and FTS. Have I overlooked something?

      I'd like to suggest that it had to do with "sensitive handling."
      That, as the name implies, a GO went to "everybody," whereas, an SO
      went only to the party or parties concerned. In other words, that,
      in this time before a standard security classification system had
      been adopted in American armies, this was a way of limiting and
      controlling dissemination. It would have been equivalent to our
      modern "Limited Distribution" (LIMDIS). (While "Confidential" or
      even "Secret" could have been added as a caveat, the hand-
      carried/receipted delivery was obviously intended to
      ensure "controlled distribution," if not "EYES ONLY.") This would
      help to understand the shockwave over realization that an especially
      sensitive document had "gotten out," unlike a GO that might have
      been intentionally released to the newspapers.

      This interpretation is not explicit in rules and regs I've checked,
      but it does seem to be implied. Feedback welcomed.
    • NJ Rebel
      Special Orders were orders directed to particular commands within an Army, say to a specific Corps commander, etc. In SO 191, as you read the various versions,
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 23, 2006
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        Special Orders were orders directed to particular commands within an
        Army, say to a specific Corps commander, etc. In SO 191, as you read
        the various versions, you clearly see that specific tasks were
        detailed to different commands or individuals.

        General Orders were meant for the entire Army.

        I believe that is the difference. Hope this helps!

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
        people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
        shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
        Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
        1788

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "flagflop" <flagflop@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:50 AM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's Cigar
        Wrapper)


        > Has anyone addressed the question of why a Special Order (SO) form
        > was used instead of a General Order(GO)?
        >
        > Some while back an Army brig gen boss heard me refer to SO 191 and
        > challenged me that it was a GO. I respectfully and oh-so-politely
        > differed and offered to bring in from home a copy. But, he mused
        > aloud, why would it have been done as a Special Order--it was a
        > general order for his army? I didn't have a ready answer for
        > the "why," just the what. Nor does Joe Harsh seem to address the use
        > of the form, in the most penetrating examinations of the order that
        > I've seen to date--TATF and FTS. Have I overlooked something?
        >
        > I'd like to suggest that it had to do with "sensitive handling."
        > That, as the name implies, a GO went to "everybody," whereas, an SO
        > went only to the party or parties concerned. In other words, that,
        > in this time before a standard security classification system had
        > been adopted in American armies, this was a way of limiting and
        > controlling dissemination. It would have been equivalent to our
        > modern "Limited Distribution" (LIMDIS). (While "Confidential" or
        > even "Secret" could have been added as a caveat, the hand-
        > carried/receipted delivery was obviously intended to
        > ensure "controlled distribution," if not "EYES ONLY.") This would
        > help to understand the shockwave over realization that an especially
        > sensitive document had "gotten out," unlike a GO that might have
        > been intentionally released to the newspapers.
        >
        > This interpretation is not explicit in rules and regs I've checked,
        > but it does seem to be implied. Feedback welcomed.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Stephen Recker
        It seems to me it is that it was a SO and not a GO because it was only meant for the eyes of a small, secret group and was not for general, so to speak,
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 23, 2006
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          It seems to me it is that it was a SO and not a GO because it was only
          meant for the eyes of a small, secret group and was not for general, so
          to speak, distribution.

          From what I understand, the recipients were so aware of it's secret
          nature that Longstreet ate his copy. Supposedly D.H. Hill sewed one of
          his copies into his jacket, a fact not taken away from by the idea that
          he may have wrapped the other copy around three cigars and dropped it
          in a field, soon to be occupied by the Union Army.

          Stephen

          On Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 09:50 AM, flagflop wrote:

          > Has anyone addressed the question of why a Special Order (SO) form
          > was used instead of a General Order(GO)?
        • NJ Rebel
          Stephen, As far as much of what you said, you are correct. As for D H Hill, the copy that was lost was probably lost by a courier from Army HQ, as Hill did
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 23, 2006
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            Stephen,

            As far as much of what you said, you are correct.

            As for D H Hill, the copy that was lost was probably lost by a courier
            from Army HQ, as Hill did receive the copy sent him by his brother in
            law. That is the copy now residing at UNC Durham (IIRC).

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
            people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
            shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
            Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
            1788

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:03 AM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's Cigar
            Wrapper)


            > It seems to me it is that it was a SO and not a GO because it was
            > only
            > meant for the eyes of a small, secret group and was not for general,
            > so
            > to speak, distribution.
            >
            > From what I understand, the recipients were so aware of it's secret
            > nature that Longstreet ate his copy. Supposedly D.H. Hill sewed one
            > of
            > his copies into his jacket, a fact not taken away from by the idea
            > that
            > he may have wrapped the other copy around three cigars and dropped
            > it
            > in a field, soon to be occupied by the Union Army.
            >
            > Stephen
            >
            > On Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 09:50 AM, flagflop wrote:
            >
            >> Has anyone addressed the question of why a Special Order (SO) form
            >> was used instead of a General Order(GO)?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > SPONSORED LINKS Civil war history Civil war battles Civil war
            >
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          • Thomas Clemens
            I think it was Walker who said he pinned it inside his coat, although that was in B & L where a lot of what he says is contrived to say the least. Agreed, a
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 23, 2006
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              I think it was Walker who said he pinned it inside his coat, although
              that was in B & L where a lot of what he says is contrived to say the
              least.
              Agreed, a General Order means just that, ie. for the army in general.
              This was special, to only a few people.
              Tom Clemens

              >>> gerry1952@... 2/23/2006 11:11:31 AM >>>

              Stephen,

              As far as much of what you said, you are correct.

              As for D H Hill, the copy that was lost was probably lost by a courier

              from Army HQ, as Hill did receive the copy sent him by his brother in
              law. That is the copy now residing at UNC Durham (IIRC).

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the

              people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same

              shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
              Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
              1788

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:03 AM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's Cigar
              Wrapper)


              > It seems to me it is that it was a SO and not a GO because it was
              > only
              > meant for the eyes of a small, secret group and was not for general,

              > so
              > to speak, distribution.
              >
              > From what I understand, the recipients were so aware of it's secret
              > nature that Longstreet ate his copy. Supposedly D.H. Hill sewed one
              > of
              > his copies into his jacket, a fact not taken away from by the idea
              > that
              > he may have wrapped the other copy around three cigars and dropped
              > it
              > in a field, soon to be occupied by the Union Army.
              >
              > Stephen
              >
              > On Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 09:50 AM, flagflop wrote:
              >
              >> Has anyone addressed the question of why a Special Order (SO) form
              >> was used instead of a General Order(GO)?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > SPONSORED LINKS Civil war history Civil war battles Civil war
              >
              >
              >
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > Service.
              >
              >
              >
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >









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            • Stephen Recker
              Ah, yes, Walker - the Forrest Gump of the Maryland Campaign! Stephen
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 23, 2006
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                Ah, yes, Walker - the Forrest Gump of the Maryland Campaign!

                Stephen

                On Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                > I think it was Walker who said he pinned it inside his coat, although
                > that was in B & L where a lot of what he says is contrived to say the
                > least.
                > Agreed, a General Order means just that, ie. for the army in general.
                > This was special, to only a few people.
                > Tom Clemens
              • Harry Smeltzer
                While he was ubiquitous, Forrest Gump was notoriously honest. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 23, 2006
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                  While he was ubiquitous, Forrest Gump was notoriously honest.



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                  Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:40 PM
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's Cigar Wrapper)



                  Ah, yes, Walker - the Forrest Gump of the Maryland Campaign!

                  Stephen

                  On Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                  > I think it was Walker who said he pinned it inside his coat, although
                  > that was in B & L where a lot of what he says is contrived to say the
                  > least.
                  > Agreed, a General Order means just that, ie. for the army in general.
                  > This was special, to only a few people.
                  > Tom Clemens








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                • Thomas Clemens
                  Yeah, but it is still a great quip. Good one Steve. ... While he was ubiquitous, Forrest Gump was notoriously honest. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 23, 2006
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                    Yeah, but it is still a great quip. Good one Steve.

                    >>> hjs21@... 2/23/2006 1:05:49 PM >>>
                    While he was ubiquitous, Forrest Gump was notoriously honest.



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                    Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:40 PM
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's Cigar
                    Wrapper)



                    Ah, yes, Walker - the Forrest Gump of the Maryland Campaign!

                    Stephen

                    On Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                    > I think it was Walker who said he pinned it inside his coat,
                    although
                    > that was in B & L where a lot of what he says is contrived to say
                    the
                    > least.
                    > Agreed, a General Order means just that, ie. for the army in
                    general.
                    > This was special, to only a few people.
                    > Tom Clemens








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                  • flagflop
                    ... courier ... in ... Gerry, UNC Durham ??!! Fifteen lashes. ;-)
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 23, 2006
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                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Stephen,
                      >
                      > As far as much of what you said, you are correct.
                      >
                      > As for D H Hill, the copy that was lost was probably lost by a
                      courier
                      > from Army HQ, as Hill did receive the copy sent him by his brother
                      in
                      > law. That is the copy now residing at UNC Durham (IIRC).
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      Gerry,

                      "UNC Durham"??!!

                      Fifteen lashes.

                      ;-)
                    • NJ Rebel
                      Dear Phil; I knew it was at UNC. At the time I could not remember if it was Chapel Hill etc...... which is why I said IIRC. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 24, 2006
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                        Dear Phil;

                        I knew it was at UNC. At the time I could not remember if it was
                        Chapel Hill etc...... which is why I said IIRC.

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
                        people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
                        shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
                        Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
                        1788

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "flagflop" <flagflop@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:43 PM
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's Cigar
                        Wrapper)


                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >>
                        >> Stephen,
                        >>
                        >> As far as much of what you said, you are correct.
                        >>
                        >> As for D H Hill, the copy that was lost was probably lost by a
                        > courier
                        >> from Army HQ, as Hill did receive the copy sent him by his brother
                        > in
                        >> law. That is the copy now residing at UNC Durham (IIRC).
                        >>
                        >> Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        > Gerry,
                        >
                        > "UNC Durham"??!!
                        >
                        > Fifteen lashes.
                        >
                        > ;-)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > SPONSORED LINKS Civil war history Civil war battles Civil war
                        >
                        >
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                        >
                        > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
                        >
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                        >
                      • Harry Smeltzer
                        Gerry, I wouldn t want to be you when Teej reads this. Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of NJ Rebel
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 24, 2006
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                          Gerry,



                          I wouldn't want to be you when Teej reads this.



                          Harry



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of NJ Rebel
                          Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 7:22 AM
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's Cigar
                          Wrapper)



                          Dear Phil;

                          I knew it was at UNC. At the time I could not remember if it was
                          Chapel Hill etc...... which is why I said IIRC.

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
                          people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
                          shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
                          Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
                          1788

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "flagflop" <flagflop@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:43 PM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's Cigar
                          Wrapper)


                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >>
                          >> Stephen,
                          >>
                          >> As far as much of what you said, you are correct.
                          >>
                          >> As for D H Hill, the copy that was lost was probably lost by a
                          > courier
                          >> from Army HQ, as Hill did receive the copy sent him by his brother
                          > in
                          >> law. That is the copy now residing at UNC Durham (IIRC).
                          >>
                          >> Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          >
                          > Gerry,
                          >
                          > "UNC Durham"??!!
                          >
                          > Fifteen lashes.
                          >
                          > ;-)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > SPONSORED LINKS Civil war history Civil war battles Civil war
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
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                        • NJ Rebel
                          Harry; Like I said before, I was trying to recall off the top of my head and that is why I said IIRC...... I am sure Teej will understand...... Yr. Obt. Svt. G
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 24, 2006
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                            Harry;

                            Like I said before, I was trying to recall off the top of my head and
                            that is why I said IIRC......

                            I am sure Teej will understand......

                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
                            people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
                            shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
                            Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
                            1788

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 7:29 AM
                            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's
                            Cigar Wrapper)


                            > Gerry,
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I wouldn't want to be you when Teej reads this.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Harry
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of NJ Rebel
                            > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 7:22 AM
                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's
                            > Cigar
                            > Wrapper)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear Phil;
                            >
                            > I knew it was at UNC. At the time I could not remember if it was
                            > Chapel Hill etc...... which is why I said IIRC.
                            >
                            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            >
                            > "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from
                            > the
                            > people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the
                            > same
                            > shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
                            > Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
                            > 1788
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "flagflop" <flagflop@...>
                            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:43 PM
                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's Cigar
                            > Wrapper)
                            >
                            >
                            >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                            >> wrote:
                            >>>
                            >>> Stephen,
                            >>>
                            >>> As far as much of what you said, you are correct.
                            >>>
                            >>> As for D H Hill, the copy that was lost was probably lost by a
                            >> courier
                            >>> from Army HQ, as Hill did receive the copy sent him by his brother
                            >> in
                            >>> law. That is the copy now residing at UNC Durham (IIRC).
                            >>>
                            >>> Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            >>> G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            >>
                            >> Gerry,
                            >>
                            >> "UNC Durham"??!!
                            >>
                            >> Fifteen lashes.
                            >>
                            >> ;-)
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
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                            > +war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=BbC2G-g28wRDSuP_hgFILA> war
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                          • barringer63
                            ... and ... Don t be so sure of that. It s bad enough that some of y all absolutely refuse to spell Tar Heels correctly but UNC in Dur....Dang, that s too
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 24, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Gerry Mayers wrote:

                              >
                              > Like I said before, I was trying to recall off the top of my head
                              and
                              > that is why I said IIRC......
                              >
                              > I am sure Teej will understand......

                              Don't be so sure of that. It's bad enough that some of y'all
                              absolutely refuse to spell "Tar Heels" correctly but UNC in
                              Dur....Dang, that's too horrible to even type. Compensation will
                              have to be made. Not sure what, where or when but it will happen.
                              BTW, does anyone know what the penatly is for justifiable flogging?

                              Teej
                            • NJ Rebel
                              Dear Teej; It was a very glaring example of not trusting one s memory off the top of one s head..... HEY! I do know how to spell Tar Heel correctly!!!!!!!!!!
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 24, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Teej;

                                It was a very glaring example of not trusting one's memory off the top
                                of one's head.....

                                HEY! I do know how to spell Tar Heel correctly!!!!!!!!!!

                                That has to count for something????

                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
                                people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
                                shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
                                Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
                                1788

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:30 PM
                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Lost Order (or, Harvey Hill's Cigar
                                Wrapper)


                                > Gerry Mayers wrote:
                                >
                                >>
                                >> Like I said before, I was trying to recall off the top of my head
                                > and
                                >> that is why I said IIRC......
                                >>
                                >> I am sure Teej will understand......
                                >
                                > Don't be so sure of that. It's bad enough that some of y'all
                                > absolutely refuse to spell "Tar Heels" correctly but UNC in
                                > Dur....Dang, that's too horrible to even type. Compensation will
                                > have to be made. Not sure what, where or when but it will happen.
                                > BTW, does anyone know what the penatly is for justifiable flogging?
                                >
                                > Teej
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > SPONSORED LINKS Civil war history Civil war battles Civil war
                                >
                                >
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                                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                >
                                > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
                                >
                                > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
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