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Re: Lee's Reasons for Retreating to Sharpsburg (plus two quick questions)

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  • philipkesaris
    Gerry - Thanks! I ve been to Antietam dozens of times and have recently tried to actually read all the tablets closely. The references to Sumner s Bridge
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 16, 2006
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      Gerry - Thanks! I've been to Antietam dozens of times and have
      recently tried to actually read all the tablets closely. The
      references to "Sumner's Bridge" had me scratching my head... As to
      #2, I think I know the house you are talking about - it is close to
      the road (Alt 40 going west, just before "Bolivar") and obviously
      very old. I'm sure Tom will correct me if it's not the house. The
      only reference I could find to "Marameade" on Google was a ghost
      story about a house in Middletown. As to my question about Lee's
      decision to retreat from SM, I'm inclined to credit Harsh too - TATF
      is an amazing tour de force; the level of detail awes me. Wonder if
      Carman addressed the subject? BTW, I've really enjoyed reading all
      of your insightful comments in this forum... Regards, - PK








      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
      >
      > Phil,
      >
      > Welcome. As to most of your questions, I will try addressing if
      > possible:
      >
      > 1. Your mention is the first time I have heard the Upper Bridge
      across
      > the Antietam, which btw is still being used as a road bridge to
      this
      > day, referred as such!
      > 2. IIRC, there is a house which Mac and Burn used as HQ during the
      > advance between Middletown and South Mountain and again IIRC, it is
      > located on the left hand side of the road probably a few miles from
      > Middletown.
      > 3. It is possible Lee could have telescoped a few events together,
      but
      > I would tend to go with Harsh, who was very meticulous in his
      > research. Tom Clemens is a student of Joe's and might be the best
      > person to address this particular question. It is also possible Lee
      > could have, as you state, simply decided to abandon the campaign
      based
      > on the disaster at Turners/Fox's Passes rather than Cramptons.
      > Sharpsburg was initially meant as a rallying point for the "main
      body"
      > plus McLaws...but when Jackson reported Harpers Ferry would soon
      fall,
      > Lee decided to make a stand at Sharpsburg and offer battle.
      >
      > Hope this helps.....
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from
      the
      > people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the
      same
      > shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
      > Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
      > 1788
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "philipkesaris" <philipkesaris@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:20 PM
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lee's Reasons for Retreating to Sharpsburg
      > (plus two quick questions)
      >
      >
      > Folks: I recently joined this group and wanted to read every post
      > before contributing, as I didn't want to go over old ground. I've
      > read them all and learned a ton from all of you - fantastic group!
      > Two quick questions and then a comment I'd love to hear your
      thoughts
      > on. The two questions: (1) Was the Upper Bridge/Hitt Bridge also
      > known as the "Sumner Bridge"? I noted two War Department tablets
      > (about Meade's and Ricketts' divisions on 9/16) that refer to it as
      > such. Was this a mistake? I thought Sumner crossed the creek at
      the
      > Pry Mill ford? Also, IIRC, wasn't there a bridge across the
      > Chickahominy called the "Sumner Bridge" that was used in the
      > Peninsula Campaign? (2) Where is "Marameade" located? I'm guessing
      > it's the name of a farm/house on the Nat'l Road between Middletown
      > and Turner's Gap where Mac and Burn stayed on the night of Sept. 14,
      > but just where is it? My comment: I just finished Tim
      Reese's "High-
      > Water Mark" wherein he contends (pp. 52-53) that Lee retired to
      > Sharpsburg because of the Union breakthrough at Crampton's Gap. Tim
      > cites Lee's Sept. 16 message to Davis, his campaign report of
      > 8/19/63, and Wm. Allen's notes of his 1868 interview with Lee. Joe
      > Harsh, in contrast, argues that Lee made the decision to retire from
      > South Mountain at about 8 pm on the 14th (based only on the
      situation
      > at Turner's Gap), which led to Lee's 8:15 pm message to McLaws
      > (the "day has gone against us" message). According to Harsh, this
      > was two hours before Lee learned of the loss of Crampton's Gap. See
      > TATF p. 289 and Sounding the Shallows pp. 181-82. Was
      > Lee "telescoping" events in his writings cited by Reese? Harsh
      > relies on careful timelines to make his point, but Reese relies on
      > Lee's own words. Any thoughts? - Phil Kesaris
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > SPONSORED LINKS Civil war history Civil war battles Civil war
      >
      >
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      >
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      >
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    • NJ Rebel
      Phil; Tom Clemens earned his Doctorate working on parts of the Carman MS, so he would be the one to ask on this board. However, if you have the Sid Meier game
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 16, 2006
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        Phil;

        Tom Clemens earned his Doctorate working on parts of the Carman MS, so
        he would be the one to ask on this board.

        However, if you have the Sid Meier game "Antietam", you might want to
        check to see what part of the Carman MS on the game might mention the
        information you seek.

        You might also want to try a Google search for some Antietam related
        websites and especially take a look at the AOtW website.

        Thank you for your compliment but I am just a student like
        yourself...trying to come to grips with the battle that was the
        strategic turning point of the War. Even though Vicksburg basically
        broke the Confederacy in half and Gettysburg blunted the offensive
        power of the ANV, it was Sharpsburg which gave AL the impetus to
        release the Preliminary Emancipation Proclamation...which put England
        and France on notice that the US was finally going to do something
        about slavery and also meant the Federal Govt. was going to see the
        War through no matter what. What most people do not realize about the
        EP is that it really did not free any slaves in the Loyal States or in
        most of the South where the Union forces were in control.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
        people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
        shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
        Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
        1788

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "philipkesaris" <philipkesaris@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:28 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Lee's Reasons for Retreating to Sharpsburg
        (plus two quick questions)


        > Gerry - Thanks! I've been to Antietam dozens of times and have
        > recently tried to actually read all the tablets closely. The
        > references to "Sumner's Bridge" had me scratching my head... As to
        > #2, I think I know the house you are talking about - it is close to
        > the road (Alt 40 going west, just before "Bolivar") and obviously
        > very old. I'm sure Tom will correct me if it's not the house. The
        > only reference I could find to "Marameade" on Google was a ghost
        > story about a house in Middletown. As to my question about Lee's
        > decision to retreat from SM, I'm inclined to credit Harsh too - TATF
        > is an amazing tour de force; the level of detail awes me. Wonder if
        > Carman addressed the subject? BTW, I've really enjoyed reading all
        > of your insightful comments in this forum... Regards, - PK
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
        > wrote:
        >>
        >> Phil,
        >>
        >> Welcome. As to most of your questions, I will try addressing if
        >> possible:
        >>
        >> 1. Your mention is the first time I have heard the Upper Bridge
        > across
        >> the Antietam, which btw is still being used as a road bridge to
        > this
        >> day, referred as such!
        >> 2. IIRC, there is a house which Mac and Burn used as HQ during the
        >> advance between Middletown and South Mountain and again IIRC, it is
        >> located on the left hand side of the road probably a few miles from
        >> Middletown.
        >> 3. It is possible Lee could have telescoped a few events together,
        > but
        >> I would tend to go with Harsh, who was very meticulous in his
        >> research. Tom Clemens is a student of Joe's and might be the best
        >> person to address this particular question. It is also possible Lee
        >> could have, as you state, simply decided to abandon the campaign
        > based
        >> on the disaster at Turners/Fox's Passes rather than Cramptons.
        >> Sharpsburg was initially meant as a rallying point for the "main
        > body"
        >> plus McLaws...but when Jackson reported Harpers Ferry would soon
        > fall,
        >> Lee decided to make a stand at Sharpsburg and offer battle.
        >>
        >> Hope this helps.....
        >>
        >> Yr. Obt. Svt.
        >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >>
        >> "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from
        > the
        >> people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the
        > same
        >> shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
        >> Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
        >> 1788
        >>
        >> ----- Original Message -----
        >> From: "philipkesaris" <philipkesaris@...>
        >> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        >> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:20 PM
        >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lee's Reasons for Retreating to Sharpsburg
        >> (plus two quick questions)
        >>
        >>
        >> Folks: I recently joined this group and wanted to read every post
        >> before contributing, as I didn't want to go over old ground. I've
        >> read them all and learned a ton from all of you - fantastic group!
        >> Two quick questions and then a comment I'd love to hear your
        > thoughts
        >> on. The two questions: (1) Was the Upper Bridge/Hitt Bridge also
        >> known as the "Sumner Bridge"? I noted two War Department tablets
        >> (about Meade's and Ricketts' divisions on 9/16) that refer to it as
        >> such. Was this a mistake? I thought Sumner crossed the creek at
        > the
        >> Pry Mill ford? Also, IIRC, wasn't there a bridge across the
        >> Chickahominy called the "Sumner Bridge" that was used in the
        >> Peninsula Campaign? (2) Where is "Marameade" located? I'm guessing
        >> it's the name of a farm/house on the Nat'l Road between Middletown
        >> and Turner's Gap where Mac and Burn stayed on the night of Sept.
        >> 14,
        >> but just where is it? My comment: I just finished Tim
        > Reese's "High-
        >> Water Mark" wherein he contends (pp. 52-53) that Lee retired to
        >> Sharpsburg because of the Union breakthrough at Crampton's Gap.
        >> Tim
        >> cites Lee's Sept. 16 message to Davis, his campaign report of
        >> 8/19/63, and Wm. Allen's notes of his 1868 interview with Lee. Joe
        >> Harsh, in contrast, argues that Lee made the decision to retire
        >> from
        >> South Mountain at about 8 pm on the 14th (based only on the
        > situation
        >> at Turner's Gap), which led to Lee's 8:15 pm message to McLaws
        >> (the "day has gone against us" message). According to Harsh, this
        >> was two hours before Lee learned of the loss of Crampton's Gap.
        >> See
        >> TATF p. 289 and Sounding the Shallows pp. 181-82. Was
        >> Lee "telescoping" events in his writings cited by Reese? Harsh
        >> relies on careful timelines to make his point, but Reese relies on
        >> Lee's own words. Any thoughts? - Phil Kesaris
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> SPONSORED LINKS Civil war history Civil war battles Civil war
        >>
        >>
        >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
        > ------------
        >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >>
        >> a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
        >>
        >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        >> TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >>
        >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        >> Service.
        >>
        >>
        >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
        > ------------
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > SPONSORED LINKS Civil war history Civil war battles Civil war
        >
        >
        > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
        >
        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > Service.
        >
        >
        > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
      • Stephen Recker
        In Blue and Grey Magazine, Holiday 2004, the Iron Brigade, they include Marameade as part of the driving tour: Leaving Middletown by staying on Alt. US 40
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 16, 2006
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          In Blue and Grey Magazine, Holiday 2004, the Iron Brigade, they include
          Marameade as part of the driving tour:

          "Leaving Middletown by staying on Alt. US 40 West, in about a mile
          cross Catoctin Creek and take an odometer reading, as the next site can
          be easily missed. Beyond the creek,1.4 miles is a large white house on
          the left known as "Marameade". It was Maj. Gen. George B. McClellan's
          HQ during the Battle of South Mountain, and on the grounds of the
          estate was placed the heavier artillery of the army to support the
          attack."

          Stephen Recker

          On Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 09:20 PM, philipkesaris wrote:

          > (2) Where is "Marameade" located?
        • Brian Downey
          Hi Philip, I ve not seen the Upper Bridge called Sumner s anywhere else either. The tablets you found are #14: http://aotw.org/tablet.php?tablet_id=140 and
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 17, 2006
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            Hi Philip,

            I've not seen the Upper Bridge called "Sumner's" anywhere else either.
            The tablets you found are #14:
            http://aotw.org/tablet.php?tablet_id=140 and #15:
            http://aotw.org/tablet.php?tablet_id=150 (Stephen's got 'em pictured
            online also:
            http://www.virtualantietam.com/monuments/detail.cfm?curMon=120ht and
            http://www.virtualantietam.com/monuments/detail.cfm?curMon=121ht ),
            and they talk about I Corps units. You're quite right about Sumner's
            troops crossing at the Pry Ford.

            Carman only uses this name on those two tablets, as far as I can tell,
            and he refers to it as the "Upper Bridge" on at least 4 others (1, 48,
            118, 119). On the maps in the Battlefield Board's Atlas it's the
            "Upper Bridge".

            It's possible this refers to Gen Sumner's role as Wing Commander on
            the right.

            This is an entertaining question. I hope someone has time to dig in
            General Carman's notes (!).

            Regards,
            Brian

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "philipkesaris"
            <philipkesaris@...> wrote:
            > (1) Was the Upper Bridge/Hitt Bridge also
            > known as the "Sumner Bridge"? I noted two War Department tablets
            > (about Meade's and Ricketts' divisions on 9/16) that refer to it as
            > such. Was this a mistake? I thought Sumner crossed the creek at the
            > Pry Mill ford? Also, IIRC, wasn't there a bridge across the
            > Chickahominy called the "Sumner Bridge" that was used in the
            > Peninsula Campaign?
          • Stephen Recker
            This is from Carman. No mention of the bridge: On the evening of September 16th, when McClellan directed Sumner to send the Twelfth Corps across the Antietam
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 17, 2006
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              This is from Carman. No mention of the bridge:

              On the evening of September 16th, when McClellan directed Sumner to
              send the Twelfth Corps across the Antietam that night, Sumner correctly
              requested that the Second Corps should go, also, but McClellan would
              not consent; he gave orders to hold the corps in readiness to march an
              hour before daybreak, to support Hooker, but not to move until further
              orders. In anticipation of going that night Sumner had already sent
              some of his batteries across the Antietam. Sumner's men had all
              breakfasted before daybreak, filled their canteens and rolled their
              blankets; they were ready to march but no orders came, and a little
              after 6 o'clock Sumner, with his son, Captain S.S. Sumner, of his
              staff, went to headquarters, but a few yards distant, for orders and
              personal instructions. McClellan had not yet awakened from sleep and
              none of his staff seemed disposed to disturb him, though the roar of
              the battle was sounding in their ears. Sumner waited, walking to and
              fro on the veranda of the Pry house, or sitting on the steps, the roar
              of battle increasing and the detonation of the heavy guns shaking the
              panes and shivering the sash of the windows, which let into McClellan's
              room the full sunlight, but McClellan did not make his appearance.
              Members of the staff were watching Hooker's struggle, which was in full
              view, yet McClellan could not be seen and one of his staff members
              remarked that Hooker's fight was only a rearguard affair, as "Uncle
              Bobby Lee" was too much of a soldier to fight in that position with a
              river at his back. And the opinion was expressed to McClellan, also,
              that morning, whether he shared it or not we do not know.

              Finally, at 7:20 a.m., after waiting more than an hour, Sumner received
              his orders to cross the Antietam with two divisions, Richardson to
              follow when relieved by Morell's' Division of the Fifth Corps. He put
              Sedgwick in motion immediately, French following, went down the hill in
              rear of McClellan's headquarters and crossed the Antietam at Pry's
              Ford, where Doubleday had crossed the evening before, and when across
              ascended a gentle slope for about a quarter of a mile, halted and
              formed his lines.

              Stephen

              On Friday, February 17, 2006, at 09:25 AM, Brian Downey wrote:

              > This is an entertaining question. I hope someone has time to dig in
              > General Carman's notes (!).
            • barringer63
              ... either. The only reference to a Sumner s Bridge that I could find is that it is an alternate name for Grapevine Bridge on the Chickahominy. Teej
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 17, 2006
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                Brian Downey wrote:
                >
                > Hi Philip,
                >
                > I've not seen the Upper Bridge called "Sumner's" anywhere else
                either.

                The only reference to a "Sumner's Bridge" that I could find is that
                it is an alternate name for Grapevine Bridge on the Chickahominy.

                Teej
              • Thomas Clemens
                It is called Sumner s Bridge infrequently in Antietam literature, and also, alternatively, Hooker s or Doubleday s Bridge. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 17, 2006
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                  It is called Sumner's Bridge infrequently in Antietam literature, and
                  also, alternatively, Hooker's or Doubleday's Bridge.

                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College


                  >>> teej@... 02/17/06 6:53 PM >>>
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