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RE: [TalkAntietam] Order 191

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  • Harry Smeltzer
    The timetable established in SO 191 certainly indicates that Lee did not account for the hold-out of the Garrison at HF. Harry ... From:
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 11, 2006
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      The timetable established in SO 191 certainly indicates that Lee did not
      account for the hold-out of the Garrison at HF.



      Harry



      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of richard@...
      Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:06 AM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Order 191



      There are some things that are not only unknown -- but unknowable.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:49 PM
      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Order 191


      > I believe Harsh says that Lee lost the initiative even before that -
      around
      > the time that the timetable for the Martinsburg/Harper's Ferry operation
      > went to hell. And that was pretty quick. Lee never planned for the
      > possibility that the garrison at HF would hold out - at least not in SO
      191.
      > If he accounted for that contingency, he did not record it, nor did anyone
      > else.
      >
      >
      >
      > Harry
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
      On
      > Behalf Of NJ Rebel
      > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:59 PM
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
      >
      >
      >
      > Harry,
      >
      > Being the scholar of Antietam/Sharpsburg that I am, and also having
      > digested Harsh's books, I agree.
      >
      > Stuart should take more blame for some of the shortcomings of the
      > campaign, but as Harsh says so eloquently, Lee lost the initiative of
      > the Campaign about the time the "Lost Order" was found.....
      >
      > Maybe Pete Longstreet was right in his concerns about splitting the
      > ANV into so many segments....
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
      > people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
      > shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
      > Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
      > 1788
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 3:52 PM
      > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
      >
      >
      > > If you're covering the beginning of the campaign, keep in mind that
      > > SO 191
      > > was not even written until the 9th, and not found until the 13th. I
      > > don't
      > > know that I'd call that the beginning of the campaign.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Another question you might ask is just when did Lee discover that
      > > McClellan
      > > had taken the field against him? The last army he had faced was led
      > > by
      > > Pope. There was a very brief announcement, I think on the 6th, that
      > > McClellan had moved his HQ outside the city limits, but I'm not sure
      > > Lee
      > > would have seen this, and even if he had he may not have come to the
      > > conclusion that Pope had been displaced.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > One chronicler of the campaign has a rather unusual way of
      > > rationalizing all
      > > of this. Relying on the old saw that Lee gathered a lot of intel
      > > from
      > > Northern papers, he claims that Lee became aware of the change in
      > > commanders
      > > and even tailored his campaign on the fly to take advantage of
      > > McClellan's
      > > "weaknesses." But with the publication of the discovery of SO 191
      > > on either
      > > the 14th or 15th (can't remember right now), and Lee's claiming to
      > > be
      > > unaware of this discovery, he (the author) magically concludes that
      > > Lee's
      > > newspaper sources had dried up. Well, maybe they had dried up long
      > > before.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > As Joe Harsh has pointed out, it was not important whether Lee knew
      > > about
      > > the discovery of the order. What was important was that he now knew
      > > that
      > > the AotP was much closer and moving much faster than he had been led
      > > to
      > > believe (for this I fault Stuart, who did not shine in the roles of
      > > scouting
      > > and screening in this campaign).
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Harry
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      > > Behalf Of nickrelee@...
      > > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 3:37 PM
      > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > As I've mentioned before our study group is doing the Antietam
      > > campaign
      > > this
      > > year. Next week we will be discussing the beginning of the campaign
      > > and
      > > will definetly hit on order 191. Having read many different sources
      > > I'm
      > > still
      > > confused as to when Lee knew about McClellan's finding of the
      > > order. I
      > > think
      > > it was Murfin who said that at 10 pm on the 13th Lee sent a message
      > > to
      > > McLaws(?) that said the Union was coming to Harper's Ferry, but that
      > > the
      > > Union
      > > moves that afternoon had not been in that direction so he assumed
      > > that Lee
      > > had
      > > heard about the finding and assumed Mac would go to HF. Someone
      > > else said
      > > that
      > > Lee did not know about it until that winter when he read a
      > > newspaper
      > > account
      > > of it. And someone else said that he knew of it but that the
      > > newspaper
      > > just
      > > revealed who's copy had been lost. So what is the most accepted
      > > version?
      > > --Nick
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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    • NJ Rebel
      Harry; Indeed...and neither did Jackson............... Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers ....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 11, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Harry;

        Indeed...and neither did Jackson...............

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
        people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
        shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
        Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
        1788

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 2:43 PM
        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Order 191


        > The timetable established in SO 191 certainly indicates that Lee did
        > not
        > account for the hold-out of the Garrison at HF.
        >
        >
        >
        > Harry
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of richard@...
        > Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:06 AM
        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
        >
        >
        >
        > There are some things that are not only unknown -- but unknowable.
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:49 PM
        > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
        >
        >
        >> I believe Harsh says that Lee lost the initiative even before
        >> that -
        > around
        >> the time that the timetable for the Martinsburg/Harper's Ferry
        >> operation
        >> went to hell. And that was pretty quick. Lee never planned for
        >> the
        >> possibility that the garrison at HF would hold out - at least not
        >> in SO
        > 191.
        >> If he accounted for that contingency, he did not record it, nor did
        >> anyone
        >> else.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Harry
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
        > On
        >> Behalf Of NJ Rebel
        >> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:59 PM
        >> To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        >> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Harry,
        >>
        >> Being the scholar of Antietam/Sharpsburg that I am, and also having
        >> digested Harsh's books, I agree.
        >>
        >> Stuart should take more blame for some of the shortcomings of the
        >> campaign, but as Harsh says so eloquently, Lee lost the initiative
        >> of
        >> the Campaign about the time the "Lost Order" was found.....
        >>
        >> Maybe Pete Longstreet was right in his concerns about splitting the
        >> ANV into so many segments....
        >>
        >> Yr. Obt. Svt.
        >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >>
        >> "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from
        >> the
        >> people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the
        >> same
        >> shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
        >> Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
        >> 1788
        >>
        >> ----- Original Message -----
        >> From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
        >> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        >> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 3:52 PM
        >> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
        >>
        >>
        >> > If you're covering the beginning of the campaign, keep in mind
        >> > that
        >> > SO 191
        >> > was not even written until the 9th, and not found until the 13th.
        >> > I
        >> > don't
        >> > know that I'd call that the beginning of the campaign.
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > Another question you might ask is just when did Lee discover that
        >> > McClellan
        >> > had taken the field against him? The last army he had faced was
        >> > led
        >> > by
        >> > Pope. There was a very brief announcement, I think on the 6th,
        >> > that
        >> > McClellan had moved his HQ outside the city limits, but I'm not
        >> > sure
        >> > Lee
        >> > would have seen this, and even if he had he may not have come to
        >> > the
        >> > conclusion that Pope had been displaced.
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > One chronicler of the campaign has a rather unusual way of
        >> > rationalizing all
        >> > of this. Relying on the old saw that Lee gathered a lot of intel
        >> > from
        >> > Northern papers, he claims that Lee became aware of the change in
        >> > commanders
        >> > and even tailored his campaign on the fly to take advantage of
        >> > McClellan's
        >> > "weaknesses." But with the publication of the discovery of SO
        >> > 191
        >> > on either
        >> > the 14th or 15th (can't remember right now), and Lee's claiming
        >> > to
        >> > be
        >> > unaware of this discovery, he (the author) magically concludes
        >> > that
        >> > Lee's
        >> > newspaper sources had dried up. Well, maybe they had dried up
        >> > long
        >> > before.
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > As Joe Harsh has pointed out, it was not important whether Lee
        >> > knew
        >> > about
        >> > the discovery of the order. What was important was that he now
        >> > knew
        >> > that
        >> > the AotP was much closer and moving much faster than he had been
        >> > led
        >> > to
        >> > believe (for this I fault Stuart, who did not shine in the roles
        >> > of
        >> > scouting
        >> > and screening in this campaign).
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > Harry
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > -----Original Message-----
        >> > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        >> > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        >> > Behalf Of nickrelee@...
        >> > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 3:37 PM
        >> > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        >> > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > As I've mentioned before our study group is doing the Antietam
        >> > campaign
        >> > this
        >> > year. Next week we will be discussing the beginning of the
        >> > campaign
        >> > and
        >> > will definetly hit on order 191. Having read many different
        >> > sources
        >> > I'm
        >> > still
        >> > confused as to when Lee knew about McClellan's finding of the
        >> > order. I
        >> > think
        >> > it was Murfin who said that at 10 pm on the 13th Lee sent a
        >> > message
        >> > to
        >> > McLaws(?) that said the Union was coming to Harper's Ferry, but
        >> > that
        >> > the
        >> > Union
        >> > moves that afternoon had not been in that direction so he assumed
        >> > that Lee
        >> > had
        >> > heard about the finding and assumed Mac would go to HF. Someone
        >> > else said
        >> > that
        >> > Lee did not know about it until that winter when he read a
        >> > newspaper
        >> > account
        >> > of it. And someone else said that he knew of it but that the
        >> > newspaper
        >> > just
        >> > revealed who's copy had been lost. So what is the most accepted
        >> > version?
        >> > --Nick
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
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        >> &k=Civil+war+history&w1=Civil+war+history&
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        >> > w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=M8mjKWQfCOoomJUxcwVT2g>
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        >> &k=Civil+war+battles&w1=Civil+war+history&
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        >> > w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=KUuQ3QIWEfplrXjsZ8AXxQ>
        >> > war
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        >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
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        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
        >> &k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
        >> > &k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
        >> > +war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=BbC2G-g28wRDSuP_hgFILA>
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        >> > _____
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        >> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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        >> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        >> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
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        >> > _____
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        >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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        >> &k=Civil+war+history&w1=Civil+war+history&
        >> w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=M8mjKWQfCOoomJUxcwVT2g>
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        > war
        >> battles
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        >> Civil
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        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
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        >> +war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=BbC2G-g28wRDSuP_hgFILA>
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        > war
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        > Civil
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Civil+war+battles&w1=Civil+war+history&
        > w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=KUuQ3QIWEfplrXjsZ8AXxQ>
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        > Civil
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        > +war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=BbC2G-g28wRDSuP_hgFILA> war
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      • rotbaron@aol.com
        A nice summary of theories regarding Lee and finding of S.O 191 can be found within Joe Harsh s SOUNDING THE SHALLOWS on pages 170-175. Be sure to keep us
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 13, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          A nice summary of theories regarding Lee and finding of S.O 191 can be found within Joe Harsh's SOUNDING THE SHALLOWS on pages 170-175.

          Be sure to keep us posted on your plans to visit the battlefield!

          Tom Shay

          -----Original Message-----
          From: nickrelee@...
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:36:53 EST
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Order 191


          As I've mentioned before our study group is doing the Antietam campaign this
          year. Next week we will be discussing the beginning of the campaign and
          will definetly hit on order 191. Having read many different sources I'm still
          confused as to when Lee knew about McClellan's finding of the order. I think
          it was Murfin who said that at 10 pm on the 13th Lee sent a message to
          McLaws(?) that said the Union was coming to Harper's Ferry, but that the Union
          moves that afternoon had not been in that direction so he assumed that Lee had
          heard about the finding and assumed Mac would go to HF. Someone else said that

          Lee did not know about it until that winter when he read a newspaper account
          of it. And someone else said that he knew of it but that the newspaper just
          revealed who's copy had been lost. So what is the most accepted version?
          --Nick


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