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RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign

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  • Harry Smeltzer
    Dave, This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an adequate response: Given that SO 191 placed Jackson s command at Martinsburg and under
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 7, 2006
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      Dave,



      This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an adequate
      response:



      Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and under no
      circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
      communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what was the
      earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not McLaws', not
      Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive that
      information?



      Harry



      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of flagflop
      Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



      Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal unit
      posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying visual
      signal communication to the east at the very time its was most needed. (I've
      found no indication that signal communication was attempted between McLaws
      and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)

      Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!

      Dave Gaddy













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    • Brian Downey
      Thanks for the details Dave - I ve been thinking that more important than the control McLaws _actually_ had over the Valley, is what Gen McClellan understood
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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        Thanks for the details Dave -

        I've been thinking that more important than the control
        McLaws _actually_ had over the Valley, is what Gen McClellan
        understood or believed he was up against at the time.

        I don't know that he'd have had time to recognize his couriers weren't
        getting through to HF. Also, going on memory, Col Davis
        hadn't got to McClellan (if at all) til the 17th with his knowledge of
        Confederate positions. I don't know what intel, if any,
        McClellan had about where his enemy was between the 14th and 17th
        aside from the aging SO191. As Eric W mentioned, McClellan doesn't
        seem to have used his Cavalry much for scouting, at least not in
        Pleasant Valley after breaking through Fox's on the 14th.

        Eric had made a hypothetical (or hindsight) suggestion that McClellan
        should have used his Cavalry to delay AP Hill in his arrival from HF
        on the 17th. I'm thinking McClellan couldn't do that, not because he
        didn't know how to use the arm or because he lacked resources - more
        because it wasn't at all a practical option for him, even if he knew
        that AP Hill would be coming and what his impact would be at
        Sharpsburg ...

        Brian



        > Brian,
        >
        > I think we've credited McLaws with too much control over Maryland
        Hgts/Elk Ridge prior to becoming alarmed at what was going on behind
        him in the Pleasant Valley passes, and drawing his attention. My
        impression is that his men held a fairly narrow approach along the
        ridge line and eastern slope, but had not swept over the western slope
        nor established control over the road under the railroad crossing and
        past Salty Dog...the escape route for the Union cavalry's (Grimes
        Davis') night passage.
        >
        > McLaws' approach march to HF appears to me to have been in three
        columns--one (Kershaw-Barksdale) on Elk Ridge toward Md Hgts, one
        (Anderson) along South Mountain toward Sandy Point, and McLaws' main
        body along the floor of Pleasant Valley, the three probably
        coordinating their advance by signal. With the sounds of firing
        behind, McLaws had to divert attention to his rear guard at the
        passes, while at the same time pushing guns forward toward the south
        end of Md Hgts. It's almost as though no thought was given to the
        western slope or the river road below it.
        >
        > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
        unit posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
        visual signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
        needed. (I've found no indication that signal communication was
        attempted between McLaws and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
        >
        > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
        >
        > Dave Gaddy
        >
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Brian, re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it.......
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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          Dear Brian,

          re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill
          would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
          would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
          Creek.

          As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking Crampton's
          Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
          Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
          actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
          Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there pretty
          much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.

          I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
          supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to try
          to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
          from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.

          Very respectfully,
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
          and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
          to preserve it, save that of honour."
          --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860
        • Harry Smeltzer
          Three questions, Gerry. How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill s? How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve at
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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            Three questions, Gerry.



            How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill's?



            How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve
            at HF was a siege?



            To where were the telegraph lines from HF operating?



            Harry



            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of G E Mayers
            Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:51 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



            Dear Brian,

            re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill
            would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
            would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
            Creek.

            As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking Crampton's

            Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
            Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
            actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
            Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there pretty
            much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.

            I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
            supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to try
            to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
            from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.

            Very respectfully,
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
            and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
            to preserve it, save that of honour."
            --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860










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          • G E Mayers
            Good questions Harry! 1. IIRC, Hill s force was ID d by the US Signals from their signal station closest to Burnside due to their having very high quality
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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              Good questions Harry!

              1. IIRC, Hill's force was ID'd by the US Signals from their signal station
              closest to Burnside due to their having very high quality optics and also, I
              would imagine they saw the column marching up the HF Ferry Road flying
              Virginia and Confederate flags. (Will have to check sources on that one!)

              2. Will have to check sources on this one, but IIRC, he was so informed by
              Halleck. (Maybe Tom Clemens can help with this one as well as Question 1.)

              3. Let me check sources including Harsh TATF on this. (Another good Tom
              Clemens question!)

              Very respectfully,
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
              and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
              to preserve it, save that of honour."
              --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:13 PM
              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign


              > Three questions, Gerry.
              >
              >
              >
              > How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill's?
              >
              >
              >
              > How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve
              > at HF was a siege?
              >
              >
              >
              > To where were the telegraph lines from HF operating?
              >
              >
              >
              > Harry
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
              > On
              > Behalf Of G E Mayers
              > Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:51 PM
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
              >
              >
              >
              > Dear Brian,
              >
              > re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP
              > Hill
              > would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
              > would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
              > Creek.
              >
              > As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking
              > Crampton's
              >
              > Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
              > Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
              > actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
              > Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there
              > pretty
              > much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.
              >
              > I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
              > supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to
              > try
              > to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
              > from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.
              >
              > Very respectfully,
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
              > and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
              > to preserve it, save that of honour."
              > --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860
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            • Thomas Clemens
              A dispatch rider from HF got to McClellan and notified him of the situation. I can look up the exact day & time if you need it, it is in Carman. Mac was
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                A dispatch rider from HF got to McClellan and notified him of the
                situation. I can look up the exact day & time if you need it, it is in
                Carman. Mac was very much trying to break through and relieve the
                siege, and Halleck discussed it with him, adding it to his mission. The
                telegraph line to DC, and everywhere else, were cut by the 13th.

                The signal dispatch warning of Hill's approach is in the OR IIRC, but
                there is no evidence it reached Burnside in time to react to it. I
                don't think it mentions Hill by name, and the Viriginia flags is a myth,
                the only VA units in the light Division were in Field's brigade, and
                they were at the end of the column. Gregg's SC brigade was first, and
                the NC artillery officer who saw the flag with his telescope probably
                confused it for a VA flag.

                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College


                >>> hjs21@... 01/08/06 3:13 PM >>>
              • Teej Smith
                Tom Clemens wrote: Gregg s SC brigade was first, and ... Yeah, well you know how it is, all those Mountain of Conceit flags look pretty much the same to
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                  Tom Clemens wrote:

                  <snip>

                  Gregg's SC brigade was first, and
                  > the NC artillery officer who saw the flag with his telescope probably
                  > confused it for a VA flag.

                  Yeah, well you know how it is, all those Mountain of Conceit flags look
                  pretty much the same to North Carolinians. :-)

                  Regards,
                  Teej
                • Thomas Clemens
                  Yes, many state had blue flags with a state seal or symbol that looked alike from a distance. Even Maryland had one like that, unlike the ugly flag we have
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                    Yes, many state had blue flags with a state seal or symbol that looked
                    alike from a distance. Even Maryland had one like that, unlike the ugly
                    flag we have now.

                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College


                    >>> teej@... 01/08/06 6:29 PM >>>
                  • flagflop
                    Harry, In Ed Fishel s 1996 Secret War for the Union, (p. 234), Fishel wrestled with the basis for Mac s (erroneous) conclusion that Jackson had arrived on
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                      Harry,
                      In Ed Fishel's 1996 "Secret War for the Union," (p. 234), Fishel
                      wrestled with the basis for Mac's (erroneous) conclusion that
                      Jackson had arrived on the field at Sharpsburg on 15 Sep. He
                      suggested that it may have been due simply to Mac's hearing the
                      cheers at Sharpsburg (over news of the fall of HF), mis-interpreting
                      that as arrival of major reenforcement, asking himself (based on SO
                      191) which force that would likely be, and assuming Jackson...for
                      Jackson was not concerned with HF, but Martinsburg, and thus most
                      likely to have finished his task and rejoined Lee. Fishel describes
                      this as "Of all the erroneous conclusions about enemy movements and
                      positions that McClellan made after acquiring Lee's order, this one
                      was the most damaging." I tend to agree with that: in other words,
                      Mac accepted that (per SO 191) the reduction of HF was the primary
                      task of McLaws' guns on Md Hgts, with a modest assist from Walker to
                      block down-stream exit. He was unaware of Jackson's arrival there to
                      invest the post and the delay in SO 191's time-table.
                      Dave Gaddy


                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Dave,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an
                      adequate
                      > response:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and
                      under no
                      > circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
                      > communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what
                      was the
                      > earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not
                      McLaws', not
                      > Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive
                      that
                      > information?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Harry
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of flagflop
                      > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
                      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
                      unit
                      > posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
                      visual
                      > signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
                      needed. (I've
                      > found no indication that signal communication was attempted
                      between McLaws
                      > and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
                      >
                      > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
                      >
                      > Dave Gaddy
                      >
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                    • Harry Smeltzer
                      An erroneous conclusion to be sure, but also understandable given the contents of SO 191. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                        An erroneous conclusion to be sure, but also understandable given the
                        contents of SO 191.



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of flagflop
                        Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 11:09 PM
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



                        Harry,
                        In Ed Fishel's 1996 "Secret War for the Union," (p. 234), Fishel
                        wrestled with the basis for Mac's (erroneous) conclusion that
                        Jackson had arrived on the field at Sharpsburg on 15 Sep. He
                        suggested that it may have been due simply to Mac's hearing the
                        cheers at Sharpsburg (over news of the fall of HF), mis-interpreting
                        that as arrival of major reenforcement, asking himself (based on SO
                        191) which force that would likely be, and assuming Jackson...for
                        Jackson was not concerned with HF, but Martinsburg, and thus most
                        likely to have finished his task and rejoined Lee. Fishel describes
                        this as "Of all the erroneous conclusions about enemy movements and
                        positions that McClellan made after acquiring Lee's order, this one
                        was the most damaging." I tend to agree with that: in other words,
                        Mac accepted that (per SO 191) the reduction of HF was the primary
                        task of McLaws' guns on Md Hgts, with a modest assist from Walker to
                        block down-stream exit. He was unaware of Jackson's arrival there to
                        invest the post and the delay in SO 191's time-table.
                        Dave Gaddy


                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Dave,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an
                        adequate
                        > response:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and
                        under no
                        > circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
                        > communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what
                        was the
                        > earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not
                        McLaws', not
                        > Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive
                        that
                        > information?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Harry
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of flagflop
                        > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
                        unit
                        > posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
                        visual
                        > signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
                        needed. (I've
                        > found no indication that signal communication was attempted
                        between McLaws
                        > and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
                        >
                        > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
                        >
                        > Dave Gaddy
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > SPONSORED LINKS
                        >
                        >
                        > Civil
                        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                        t=ms&k=Civil+war+history&w1=Civil+war+history&
                        >
                        w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=M8mjKWQfCOoomJUxcwVT2
                        g> war
                        > history
                        >
                        > Civil
                        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                        t=ms&k=Civil+war+battles&w1=Civil+war+history&
                        >
                        w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=KUuQ3QIWEfplrXjsZ8AXx
                        Q> war
                        > battles
                        >
                        > Civil
                        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                        t=ms&k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
                        > +war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=BbC2G-g28wRDSuP_hgFILA>
                        war
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
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