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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign

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  • G E Mayers
    Brian, What you said about Grimes Davis is correct......He got through the Sharpsburg area, IIRC, only by going across country and even then, had some close
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 4, 2006
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      Brian,

      What you said about Grimes Davis is correct......He got through the
      Sharpsburg area, IIRC, only by going across country and even then, had some
      close calls with Confederate patrols.

      As for Pleasanton? IIRC, he could have swung wide down to Berlin and over,
      but I would have to look at a map.

      I thought Franklin was supposed to punch through the Confederate lines once
      he went through Crampton's Gap to relieve HF.

      Very respectfully,
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
      and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
      to preserve it, save that of honour."
      --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:26 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign


      > Guys,
      >
      > I'm not arguing Eric's qualifications or reputation on cavalry
      > operations. He's the man. No discussion.
      >
      > He made a statement about McClellan picketing the Harpers Ferry Road
      > that raised a question in my mind about just how, exactly, he would
      > have been able to get his troopers there.
      >
      > I didn't want to get into a what-if discussion with Eric on the blog -
      > hardly worth his time. Perhaps this group would like to consider it:
      >
      > Look at a map and picture the relative positions of the AoP and the
      > various elements of the ANV during the period 13-19 September.
      > Remember that McC couldn't even get a courier through to HF to tell
      > them to hang on prior to its surrender ...
      >
      > So, how much Federal Cavalry would he have had to send down Pleasant
      > Valley to break through from that direction on or after September 15?
      > Would that have been a fight worth making? Was there another route
      > to the HF Road south of Sharpsburg open to McClellan anytime before
      > September 19th? Wasn't most of the ANV between the AoP and Sharpsburg
      > from the 14th onward?
      >
      > Eric alluded to Col. "Grimes" Davis' break-out from HF (14-15 Sept)
      > and that they joined the AoP by the HF Road. Suggesting, perhaps, that
      > Pleasonton could have taken the same path, in reverse. Well ... not
      > exactly. Davis apparently took his men onto the HF Road only part of
      > the way to Sharpsburg. He then headed north and west, captured a
      > train of Longstreet's wagons near Williamsport (!) and ended up in
      > Greencastle, Pennsylvania (!!) on 15 September. He did not join the AoP.
      >
      > Ah well, I'm probably over my head here, and it's all hypothetical
      > anyway,
      >
      > Regards,
      > Brian
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Marc73@a... wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >> In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      >> gerry1952@f... writes:
      >>
      >> Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I
      > do not
      >> think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.
      >>
      >> Very respectfully,
      >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> I must agree with Gerry...I have learned so much from Eric over the
      > years
      >> including tours and the written word.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Marc Riddell
      >>
      >> 83rd PVI
      >> 2nd USSS
      >> Potomac Legion
      >> Cent'l PA Rowing Association-President
      >> _http://www.rowpa.org_ (http://www.rowpa.org/)
      >> "Have You Flogged Your Crew Today?"
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • flagflop
      ... Brian, I think we ve credited McLaws with too much control over Maryland Hgts/Elk Ridge prior to becoming alarmed at what was going on behind him in the
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 7, 2006
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        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@a...> wrote:
        >
        > Guys,
        >
        > I'm not arguing Eric's qualifications or reputation on cavalry
        > operations. He's the man. No discussion.
        >
        > He made a statement about McClellan picketing the Harpers Ferry Road
        > that raised a question in my mind about just how, exactly, he would
        > have been able to get his troopers there.
        >
        > I didn't want to get into a what-if discussion with Eric on the blog -
        > hardly worth his time. Perhaps this group would like to consider it:
        >
        > Look at a map and picture the relative positions of the AoP and the
        > various elements of the ANV during the period 13-19 September.
        > Remember that McC couldn't even get a courier through to HF to tell
        > them to hang on prior to its surrender ...
        >
        > So, how much Federal Cavalry would he have had to send down Pleasant
        > Valley to break through from that direction on or after September 15?
        > Would that have been a fight worth making? Was there another route
        > to the HF Road south of Sharpsburg open to McClellan anytime before
        > September 19th? Wasn't most of the ANV between the AoP and Sharpsburg
        > from the 14th onward?
        >
        > Eric alluded to Col. "Grimes" Davis' break-out from HF (14-15 Sept)
        > and that they joined the AoP by the HF Road. Suggesting, perhaps, that
        > Pleasonton could have taken the same path, in reverse. Well ... not
        > exactly. Davis apparently took his men onto the HF Road only part of
        > the way to Sharpsburg. He then headed north and west, captured a
        > train of Longstreet's wagons near Williamsport (!) and ended up in
        > Greencastle, Pennsylvania (!!) on 15 September. He did not join the AoP.
        >
        > Ah well, I'm probably over my head here, and it's all hypothetical
        > anyway,
        >
        > Regards,
        > Brian
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Marc73@a... wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        > > gerry1952@f... writes:
        > >
        > > Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I
        > do not
        > > think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.
        > >
        > > Very respectfully,
        > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I must agree with Gerry...I have learned so much from Eric over the
        > years
        > > including tours and the written word.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Marc Riddell
        > >
        > > 83rd PVI
        > > 2nd USSS
        > > Potomac Legion
        > > Cent'l PA Rowing Association-President
        > > _http://www.rowpa.org_ (http://www.rowpa.org/)
        > > "Have You Flogged Your Crew Today?"
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >

        Brian,

        I think we've credited McLaws with too much control over Maryland Hgts/Elk Ridge prior to becoming alarmed at what was going on behind him in the Pleasant Valley passes, and drawing his attention. My impression is that his men held a fairly narrow approach along the ridge line and eastern slope, but had not swept over the western slope nor established control over the road under the railroad crossing and past Salty Dog...the escape route for the Union cavalry's (Grimes Davis') night passage.

        McLaws' approach march to HF appears to me to have been in three columns--one (Kershaw-Barksdale) on Elk Ridge toward Md Hgts, one (Anderson) along South Mountain toward Sandy Point, and McLaws' main body along the floor of Pleasant Valley, the three probably coordinating their advance by signal. With the sounds of firing behind, McLaws had to divert attention to his rear guard at the passes, while at the same time pushing guns forward toward the south end of Md Hgts. It's almost as though no thought was given to the western slope or the river road below it.

        Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal unit posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying visual signal communication to the east at the very time its was most needed. (I've found no indication that signal communication was attempted between McLaws and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)

        Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!

        Dave Gaddy
      • Harry Smeltzer
        Dave, This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an adequate response: Given that SO 191 placed Jackson s command at Martinsburg and under
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 7, 2006
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          Dave,



          This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an adequate
          response:



          Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and under no
          circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
          communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what was the
          earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not McLaws', not
          Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive that
          information?



          Harry



          -----Original Message-----
          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of flagflop
          Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



          Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal unit
          posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying visual
          signal communication to the east at the very time its was most needed. (I've
          found no indication that signal communication was attempted between McLaws
          and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)

          Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!

          Dave Gaddy













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        • Brian Downey
          Thanks for the details Dave - I ve been thinking that more important than the control McLaws _actually_ had over the Valley, is what Gen McClellan understood
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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            Thanks for the details Dave -

            I've been thinking that more important than the control
            McLaws _actually_ had over the Valley, is what Gen McClellan
            understood or believed he was up against at the time.

            I don't know that he'd have had time to recognize his couriers weren't
            getting through to HF. Also, going on memory, Col Davis
            hadn't got to McClellan (if at all) til the 17th with his knowledge of
            Confederate positions. I don't know what intel, if any,
            McClellan had about where his enemy was between the 14th and 17th
            aside from the aging SO191. As Eric W mentioned, McClellan doesn't
            seem to have used his Cavalry much for scouting, at least not in
            Pleasant Valley after breaking through Fox's on the 14th.

            Eric had made a hypothetical (or hindsight) suggestion that McClellan
            should have used his Cavalry to delay AP Hill in his arrival from HF
            on the 17th. I'm thinking McClellan couldn't do that, not because he
            didn't know how to use the arm or because he lacked resources - more
            because it wasn't at all a practical option for him, even if he knew
            that AP Hill would be coming and what his impact would be at
            Sharpsburg ...

            Brian



            > Brian,
            >
            > I think we've credited McLaws with too much control over Maryland
            Hgts/Elk Ridge prior to becoming alarmed at what was going on behind
            him in the Pleasant Valley passes, and drawing his attention. My
            impression is that his men held a fairly narrow approach along the
            ridge line and eastern slope, but had not swept over the western slope
            nor established control over the road under the railroad crossing and
            past Salty Dog...the escape route for the Union cavalry's (Grimes
            Davis') night passage.
            >
            > McLaws' approach march to HF appears to me to have been in three
            columns--one (Kershaw-Barksdale) on Elk Ridge toward Md Hgts, one
            (Anderson) along South Mountain toward Sandy Point, and McLaws' main
            body along the floor of Pleasant Valley, the three probably
            coordinating their advance by signal. With the sounds of firing
            behind, McLaws had to divert attention to his rear guard at the
            passes, while at the same time pushing guns forward toward the south
            end of Md Hgts. It's almost as though no thought was given to the
            western slope or the river road below it.
            >
            > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
            unit posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
            visual signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
            needed. (I've found no indication that signal communication was
            attempted between McLaws and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
            >
            > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
            >
            > Dave Gaddy
            >
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Brian, re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it.......
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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              Dear Brian,

              re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill
              would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
              would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
              Creek.

              As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking Crampton's
              Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
              Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
              actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
              Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there pretty
              much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.

              I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
              supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to try
              to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
              from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.

              Very respectfully,
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
              and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
              to preserve it, save that of honour."
              --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860
            • Harry Smeltzer
              Three questions, Gerry. How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill s? How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve at
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                Three questions, Gerry.



                How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill's?



                How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve
                at HF was a siege?



                To where were the telegraph lines from HF operating?



                Harry



                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of G E Mayers
                Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:51 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



                Dear Brian,

                re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill
                would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
                would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
                Creek.

                As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking Crampton's

                Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
                Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
                actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
                Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there pretty
                much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.

                I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
                supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to try
                to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
                from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.

                Very respectfully,
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                to preserve it, save that of honour."
                --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860










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              • G E Mayers
                Good questions Harry! 1. IIRC, Hill s force was ID d by the US Signals from their signal station closest to Burnside due to their having very high quality
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                  Good questions Harry!

                  1. IIRC, Hill's force was ID'd by the US Signals from their signal station
                  closest to Burnside due to their having very high quality optics and also, I
                  would imagine they saw the column marching up the HF Ferry Road flying
                  Virginia and Confederate flags. (Will have to check sources on that one!)

                  2. Will have to check sources on this one, but IIRC, he was so informed by
                  Halleck. (Maybe Tom Clemens can help with this one as well as Question 1.)

                  3. Let me check sources including Harsh TATF on this. (Another good Tom
                  Clemens question!)

                  Very respectfully,
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                  and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                  to preserve it, save that of honour."
                  --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:13 PM
                  Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign


                  > Three questions, Gerry.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill's?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve
                  > at HF was a siege?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To where were the telegraph lines from HF operating?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Harry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                  > On
                  > Behalf Of G E Mayers
                  > Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:51 PM
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Brian,
                  >
                  > re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP
                  > Hill
                  > would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
                  > would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
                  > Creek.
                  >
                  > As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking
                  > Crampton's
                  >
                  > Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
                  > Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
                  > actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
                  > Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there
                  > pretty
                  > much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.
                  >
                  > I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
                  > supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to
                  > try
                  > to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
                  > from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.
                  >
                  > Very respectfully,
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                  > and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                  > to preserve it, save that of honour."
                  > --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860
                  >
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                • Thomas Clemens
                  A dispatch rider from HF got to McClellan and notified him of the situation. I can look up the exact day & time if you need it, it is in Carman. Mac was
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                    A dispatch rider from HF got to McClellan and notified him of the
                    situation. I can look up the exact day & time if you need it, it is in
                    Carman. Mac was very much trying to break through and relieve the
                    siege, and Halleck discussed it with him, adding it to his mission. The
                    telegraph line to DC, and everywhere else, were cut by the 13th.

                    The signal dispatch warning of Hill's approach is in the OR IIRC, but
                    there is no evidence it reached Burnside in time to react to it. I
                    don't think it mentions Hill by name, and the Viriginia flags is a myth,
                    the only VA units in the light Division were in Field's brigade, and
                    they were at the end of the column. Gregg's SC brigade was first, and
                    the NC artillery officer who saw the flag with his telescope probably
                    confused it for a VA flag.

                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College


                    >>> hjs21@... 01/08/06 3:13 PM >>>
                  • Teej Smith
                    Tom Clemens wrote: Gregg s SC brigade was first, and ... Yeah, well you know how it is, all those Mountain of Conceit flags look pretty much the same to
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                      Tom Clemens wrote:

                      <snip>

                      Gregg's SC brigade was first, and
                      > the NC artillery officer who saw the flag with his telescope probably
                      > confused it for a VA flag.

                      Yeah, well you know how it is, all those Mountain of Conceit flags look
                      pretty much the same to North Carolinians. :-)

                      Regards,
                      Teej
                    • Thomas Clemens
                      Yes, many state had blue flags with a state seal or symbol that looked alike from a distance. Even Maryland had one like that, unlike the ugly flag we have
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yes, many state had blue flags with a state seal or symbol that looked
                        alike from a distance. Even Maryland had one like that, unlike the ugly
                        flag we have now.

                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        Professor of History
                        Hagerstown Community College


                        >>> teej@... 01/08/06 6:29 PM >>>
                      • flagflop
                        Harry, In Ed Fishel s 1996 Secret War for the Union, (p. 234), Fishel wrestled with the basis for Mac s (erroneous) conclusion that Jackson had arrived on
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Harry,
                          In Ed Fishel's 1996 "Secret War for the Union," (p. 234), Fishel
                          wrestled with the basis for Mac's (erroneous) conclusion that
                          Jackson had arrived on the field at Sharpsburg on 15 Sep. He
                          suggested that it may have been due simply to Mac's hearing the
                          cheers at Sharpsburg (over news of the fall of HF), mis-interpreting
                          that as arrival of major reenforcement, asking himself (based on SO
                          191) which force that would likely be, and assuming Jackson...for
                          Jackson was not concerned with HF, but Martinsburg, and thus most
                          likely to have finished his task and rejoined Lee. Fishel describes
                          this as "Of all the erroneous conclusions about enemy movements and
                          positions that McClellan made after acquiring Lee's order, this one
                          was the most damaging." I tend to agree with that: in other words,
                          Mac accepted that (per SO 191) the reduction of HF was the primary
                          task of McLaws' guns on Md Hgts, with a modest assist from Walker to
                          block down-stream exit. He was unaware of Jackson's arrival there to
                          invest the post and the delay in SO 191's time-table.
                          Dave Gaddy


                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Dave,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an
                          adequate
                          > response:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and
                          under no
                          > circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
                          > communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what
                          was the
                          > earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not
                          McLaws', not
                          > Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive
                          that
                          > information?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Harry
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          > Behalf Of flagflop
                          > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
                          unit
                          > posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
                          visual
                          > signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
                          needed. (I've
                          > found no indication that signal communication was attempted
                          between McLaws
                          > and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
                          >
                          > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
                          >
                          > Dave Gaddy
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > SPONSORED LINKS
                          >
                          >
                          > Civil
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                          t=ms&k=Civil+war+history&w1=Civil+war+history&
                          >
                          w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=M8mjKWQfCOoomJUxcwVT2
                          g> war
                          > history
                          >
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                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                          t=ms&k=Civil+war+battles&w1=Civil+war+history&
                          >
                          w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=KUuQ3QIWEfplrXjsZ8AXx
                          Q> war
                          > battles
                          >
                          > Civil
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                          t=ms&k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
                          > +war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=BbC2G-g28wRDSuP_hgFILA>
                          war
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _____
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                          >
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                          >
                        • Harry Smeltzer
                          An erroneous conclusion to be sure, but also understandable given the contents of SO 191. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            An erroneous conclusion to be sure, but also understandable given the
                            contents of SO 191.



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of flagflop
                            Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 11:09 PM
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



                            Harry,
                            In Ed Fishel's 1996 "Secret War for the Union," (p. 234), Fishel
                            wrestled with the basis for Mac's (erroneous) conclusion that
                            Jackson had arrived on the field at Sharpsburg on 15 Sep. He
                            suggested that it may have been due simply to Mac's hearing the
                            cheers at Sharpsburg (over news of the fall of HF), mis-interpreting
                            that as arrival of major reenforcement, asking himself (based on SO
                            191) which force that would likely be, and assuming Jackson...for
                            Jackson was not concerned with HF, but Martinsburg, and thus most
                            likely to have finished his task and rejoined Lee. Fishel describes
                            this as "Of all the erroneous conclusions about enemy movements and
                            positions that McClellan made after acquiring Lee's order, this one
                            was the most damaging." I tend to agree with that: in other words,
                            Mac accepted that (per SO 191) the reduction of HF was the primary
                            task of McLaws' guns on Md Hgts, with a modest assist from Walker to
                            block down-stream exit. He was unaware of Jackson's arrival there to
                            invest the post and the delay in SO 191's time-table.
                            Dave Gaddy


                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Dave,
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an
                            adequate
                            > response:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and
                            under no
                            > circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
                            > communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what
                            was the
                            > earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not
                            McLaws', not
                            > Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive
                            that
                            > information?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Harry
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of flagflop
                            > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
                            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
                            unit
                            > posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
                            visual
                            > signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
                            needed. (I've
                            > found no indication that signal communication was attempted
                            between McLaws
                            > and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
                            >
                            > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
                            >
                            > Dave Gaddy
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > SPONSORED LINKS
                            >
                            >
                            > Civil
                            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                            t=ms&k=Civil+war+history&w1=Civil+war+history&
                            >
                            w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=M8mjKWQfCOoomJUxcwVT2
                            g> war
                            > history
                            >
                            > Civil
                            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                            t=ms&k=Civil+war+battles&w1=Civil+war+history&
                            >
                            w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=KUuQ3QIWEfplrXjsZ8AXx
                            Q> war
                            > battles
                            >
                            > Civil
                            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                            t=ms&k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
                            > +war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=BbC2G-g28wRDSuP_hgFILA>
                            war
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > * Visit your group "TalkAntietam
                            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam> " on the web.
                            >
                            >
                            > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            >













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