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Re: [TalkAntietam] AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign

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  • G E Mayers
    Brian, Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I do not think there is a finer scholar out there on that question. Very respectfully,
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 4, 2006
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      Brian,

      Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I do not
      think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.

      Very respectfully,
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
      and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
      to preserve it, save that of honour."
      --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 11:29 AM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign


      > Hi Folks,
      >
      > An interesting series of assertions made by cavalry guru Eric
      > Wittenberg on his blog relating to Gen McClellan's lack of (effective)
      > use therof -
      >
      > http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=89
      >
      > I'm not sure I agree with what he calls "glaring errors", but neither
      > cavalry nor 'what-ifs' are my strong suit ...
      >
      > See what you think.
      >
      > Brian
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Marc73@aol.com
      In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gerry1952@fast.net writes: Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 4, 2006
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        In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        gerry1952@... writes:

        Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I do not
        think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.

        Very respectfully,
        G E "Gerry" Mayers



        I must agree with Gerry...I have learned so much from Eric over the years
        including tours and the written word.



        Marc Riddell

        83rd PVI
        2nd USSS
        Potomac Legion
        Cent'l PA Rowing Association-President
        _http://www.rowpa.org_ (http://www.rowpa.org/)
        "Have You Flogged Your Crew Today?"


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Brian Downey
        Guys, I m not arguing Eric s qualifications or reputation on cavalry operations. He s the man. No discussion. He made a statement about McClellan picketing
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 4, 2006
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          Guys,

          I'm not arguing Eric's qualifications or reputation on cavalry
          operations. He's the man. No discussion.

          He made a statement about McClellan picketing the Harpers Ferry Road
          that raised a question in my mind about just how, exactly, he would
          have been able to get his troopers there.

          I didn't want to get into a what-if discussion with Eric on the blog -
          hardly worth his time. Perhaps this group would like to consider it:

          Look at a map and picture the relative positions of the AoP and the
          various elements of the ANV during the period 13-19 September.
          Remember that McC couldn't even get a courier through to HF to tell
          them to hang on prior to its surrender ...

          So, how much Federal Cavalry would he have had to send down Pleasant
          Valley to break through from that direction on or after September 15?
          Would that have been a fight worth making? Was there another route
          to the HF Road south of Sharpsburg open to McClellan anytime before
          September 19th? Wasn't most of the ANV between the AoP and Sharpsburg
          from the 14th onward?

          Eric alluded to Col. "Grimes" Davis' break-out from HF (14-15 Sept)
          and that they joined the AoP by the HF Road. Suggesting, perhaps, that
          Pleasonton could have taken the same path, in reverse. Well ... not
          exactly. Davis apparently took his men onto the HF Road only part of
          the way to Sharpsburg. He then headed north and west, captured a
          train of Longstreet's wagons near Williamsport (!) and ended up in
          Greencastle, Pennsylvania (!!) on 15 September. He did not join the AoP.

          Ah well, I'm probably over my head here, and it's all hypothetical
          anyway,

          Regards,
          Brian

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Marc73@a... wrote:
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          > gerry1952@f... writes:
          >
          > Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I
          do not
          > think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.
          >
          > Very respectfully,
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          >
          >
          > I must agree with Gerry...I have learned so much from Eric over the
          years
          > including tours and the written word.
          >
          >
          >
          > Marc Riddell
          >
          > 83rd PVI
          > 2nd USSS
          > Potomac Legion
          > Cent'l PA Rowing Association-President
          > _http://www.rowpa.org_ (http://www.rowpa.org/)
          > "Have You Flogged Your Crew Today?"
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • G E Mayers
          Brian, What you said about Grimes Davis is correct......He got through the Sharpsburg area, IIRC, only by going across country and even then, had some close
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 4, 2006
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            Brian,

            What you said about Grimes Davis is correct......He got through the
            Sharpsburg area, IIRC, only by going across country and even then, had some
            close calls with Confederate patrols.

            As for Pleasanton? IIRC, he could have swung wide down to Berlin and over,
            but I would have to look at a map.

            I thought Franklin was supposed to punch through the Confederate lines once
            he went through Crampton's Gap to relieve HF.

            Very respectfully,
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
            and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
            to preserve it, save that of honour."
            --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:26 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign


            > Guys,
            >
            > I'm not arguing Eric's qualifications or reputation on cavalry
            > operations. He's the man. No discussion.
            >
            > He made a statement about McClellan picketing the Harpers Ferry Road
            > that raised a question in my mind about just how, exactly, he would
            > have been able to get his troopers there.
            >
            > I didn't want to get into a what-if discussion with Eric on the blog -
            > hardly worth his time. Perhaps this group would like to consider it:
            >
            > Look at a map and picture the relative positions of the AoP and the
            > various elements of the ANV during the period 13-19 September.
            > Remember that McC couldn't even get a courier through to HF to tell
            > them to hang on prior to its surrender ...
            >
            > So, how much Federal Cavalry would he have had to send down Pleasant
            > Valley to break through from that direction on or after September 15?
            > Would that have been a fight worth making? Was there another route
            > to the HF Road south of Sharpsburg open to McClellan anytime before
            > September 19th? Wasn't most of the ANV between the AoP and Sharpsburg
            > from the 14th onward?
            >
            > Eric alluded to Col. "Grimes" Davis' break-out from HF (14-15 Sept)
            > and that they joined the AoP by the HF Road. Suggesting, perhaps, that
            > Pleasonton could have taken the same path, in reverse. Well ... not
            > exactly. Davis apparently took his men onto the HF Road only part of
            > the way to Sharpsburg. He then headed north and west, captured a
            > train of Longstreet's wagons near Williamsport (!) and ended up in
            > Greencastle, Pennsylvania (!!) on 15 September. He did not join the AoP.
            >
            > Ah well, I'm probably over my head here, and it's all hypothetical
            > anyway,
            >
            > Regards,
            > Brian
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Marc73@a... wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >> In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            >> gerry1952@f... writes:
            >>
            >> Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I
            > do not
            >> think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.
            >>
            >> Very respectfully,
            >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> I must agree with Gerry...I have learned so much from Eric over the
            > years
            >> including tours and the written word.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Marc Riddell
            >>
            >> 83rd PVI
            >> 2nd USSS
            >> Potomac Legion
            >> Cent'l PA Rowing Association-President
            >> _http://www.rowpa.org_ (http://www.rowpa.org/)
            >> "Have You Flogged Your Crew Today?"
            >>
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • flagflop
            ... Brian, I think we ve credited McLaws with too much control over Maryland Hgts/Elk Ridge prior to becoming alarmed at what was going on behind him in the
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 7, 2006
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              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@a...> wrote:
              >
              > Guys,
              >
              > I'm not arguing Eric's qualifications or reputation on cavalry
              > operations. He's the man. No discussion.
              >
              > He made a statement about McClellan picketing the Harpers Ferry Road
              > that raised a question in my mind about just how, exactly, he would
              > have been able to get his troopers there.
              >
              > I didn't want to get into a what-if discussion with Eric on the blog -
              > hardly worth his time. Perhaps this group would like to consider it:
              >
              > Look at a map and picture the relative positions of the AoP and the
              > various elements of the ANV during the period 13-19 September.
              > Remember that McC couldn't even get a courier through to HF to tell
              > them to hang on prior to its surrender ...
              >
              > So, how much Federal Cavalry would he have had to send down Pleasant
              > Valley to break through from that direction on or after September 15?
              > Would that have been a fight worth making? Was there another route
              > to the HF Road south of Sharpsburg open to McClellan anytime before
              > September 19th? Wasn't most of the ANV between the AoP and Sharpsburg
              > from the 14th onward?
              >
              > Eric alluded to Col. "Grimes" Davis' break-out from HF (14-15 Sept)
              > and that they joined the AoP by the HF Road. Suggesting, perhaps, that
              > Pleasonton could have taken the same path, in reverse. Well ... not
              > exactly. Davis apparently took his men onto the HF Road only part of
              > the way to Sharpsburg. He then headed north and west, captured a
              > train of Longstreet's wagons near Williamsport (!) and ended up in
              > Greencastle, Pennsylvania (!!) on 15 September. He did not join the AoP.
              >
              > Ah well, I'm probably over my head here, and it's all hypothetical
              > anyway,
              >
              > Regards,
              > Brian
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Marc73@a... wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              > > gerry1952@f... writes:
              > >
              > > Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I
              > do not
              > > think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.
              > >
              > > Very respectfully,
              > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I must agree with Gerry...I have learned so much from Eric over the
              > years
              > > including tours and the written word.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Marc Riddell
              > >
              > > 83rd PVI
              > > 2nd USSS
              > > Potomac Legion
              > > Cent'l PA Rowing Association-President
              > > _http://www.rowpa.org_ (http://www.rowpa.org/)
              > > "Have You Flogged Your Crew Today?"
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >

              Brian,

              I think we've credited McLaws with too much control over Maryland Hgts/Elk Ridge prior to becoming alarmed at what was going on behind him in the Pleasant Valley passes, and drawing his attention. My impression is that his men held a fairly narrow approach along the ridge line and eastern slope, but had not swept over the western slope nor established control over the road under the railroad crossing and past Salty Dog...the escape route for the Union cavalry's (Grimes Davis') night passage.

              McLaws' approach march to HF appears to me to have been in three columns--one (Kershaw-Barksdale) on Elk Ridge toward Md Hgts, one (Anderson) along South Mountain toward Sandy Point, and McLaws' main body along the floor of Pleasant Valley, the three probably coordinating their advance by signal. With the sounds of firing behind, McLaws had to divert attention to his rear guard at the passes, while at the same time pushing guns forward toward the south end of Md Hgts. It's almost as though no thought was given to the western slope or the river road below it.

              Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal unit posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying visual signal communication to the east at the very time its was most needed. (I've found no indication that signal communication was attempted between McLaws and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)

              Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!

              Dave Gaddy
            • Harry Smeltzer
              Dave, This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an adequate response: Given that SO 191 placed Jackson s command at Martinsburg and under
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 7, 2006
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                Dave,



                This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an adequate
                response:



                Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and under no
                circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
                communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what was the
                earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not McLaws', not
                Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive that
                information?



                Harry



                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of flagflop
                Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



                Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal unit
                posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying visual
                signal communication to the east at the very time its was most needed. (I've
                found no indication that signal communication was attempted between McLaws
                and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)

                Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!

                Dave Gaddy













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              • Brian Downey
                Thanks for the details Dave - I ve been thinking that more important than the control McLaws _actually_ had over the Valley, is what Gen McClellan understood
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                  Thanks for the details Dave -

                  I've been thinking that more important than the control
                  McLaws _actually_ had over the Valley, is what Gen McClellan
                  understood or believed he was up against at the time.

                  I don't know that he'd have had time to recognize his couriers weren't
                  getting through to HF. Also, going on memory, Col Davis
                  hadn't got to McClellan (if at all) til the 17th with his knowledge of
                  Confederate positions. I don't know what intel, if any,
                  McClellan had about where his enemy was between the 14th and 17th
                  aside from the aging SO191. As Eric W mentioned, McClellan doesn't
                  seem to have used his Cavalry much for scouting, at least not in
                  Pleasant Valley after breaking through Fox's on the 14th.

                  Eric had made a hypothetical (or hindsight) suggestion that McClellan
                  should have used his Cavalry to delay AP Hill in his arrival from HF
                  on the 17th. I'm thinking McClellan couldn't do that, not because he
                  didn't know how to use the arm or because he lacked resources - more
                  because it wasn't at all a practical option for him, even if he knew
                  that AP Hill would be coming and what his impact would be at
                  Sharpsburg ...

                  Brian



                  > Brian,
                  >
                  > I think we've credited McLaws with too much control over Maryland
                  Hgts/Elk Ridge prior to becoming alarmed at what was going on behind
                  him in the Pleasant Valley passes, and drawing his attention. My
                  impression is that his men held a fairly narrow approach along the
                  ridge line and eastern slope, but had not swept over the western slope
                  nor established control over the road under the railroad crossing and
                  past Salty Dog...the escape route for the Union cavalry's (Grimes
                  Davis') night passage.
                  >
                  > McLaws' approach march to HF appears to me to have been in three
                  columns--one (Kershaw-Barksdale) on Elk Ridge toward Md Hgts, one
                  (Anderson) along South Mountain toward Sandy Point, and McLaws' main
                  body along the floor of Pleasant Valley, the three probably
                  coordinating their advance by signal. With the sounds of firing
                  behind, McLaws had to divert attention to his rear guard at the
                  passes, while at the same time pushing guns forward toward the south
                  end of Md Hgts. It's almost as though no thought was given to the
                  western slope or the river road below it.
                  >
                  > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
                  unit posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
                  visual signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
                  needed. (I've found no indication that signal communication was
                  attempted between McLaws and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
                  >
                  > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
                  >
                  > Dave Gaddy
                  >
                • G E Mayers
                  Dear Brian, re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it.......
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                    Dear Brian,

                    re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill
                    would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
                    would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
                    Creek.

                    As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking Crampton's
                    Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
                    Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
                    actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
                    Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there pretty
                    much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.

                    I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
                    supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to try
                    to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
                    from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.

                    Very respectfully,
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                    and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                    to preserve it, save that of honour."
                    --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860
                  • Harry Smeltzer
                    Three questions, Gerry. How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill s? How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve at
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                      Three questions, Gerry.



                      How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill's?



                      How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve
                      at HF was a siege?



                      To where were the telegraph lines from HF operating?



                      Harry



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of G E Mayers
                      Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:51 PM
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



                      Dear Brian,

                      re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill
                      would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
                      would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
                      Creek.

                      As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking Crampton's

                      Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
                      Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
                      actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
                      Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there pretty
                      much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.

                      I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
                      supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to try
                      to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
                      from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.

                      Very respectfully,
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                      and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                      to preserve it, save that of honour."
                      --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860










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                    • G E Mayers
                      Good questions Harry! 1. IIRC, Hill s force was ID d by the US Signals from their signal station closest to Burnside due to their having very high quality
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                        Good questions Harry!

                        1. IIRC, Hill's force was ID'd by the US Signals from their signal station
                        closest to Burnside due to their having very high quality optics and also, I
                        would imagine they saw the column marching up the HF Ferry Road flying
                        Virginia and Confederate flags. (Will have to check sources on that one!)

                        2. Will have to check sources on this one, but IIRC, he was so informed by
                        Halleck. (Maybe Tom Clemens can help with this one as well as Question 1.)

                        3. Let me check sources including Harsh TATF on this. (Another good Tom
                        Clemens question!)

                        Very respectfully,
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                        and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                        to preserve it, save that of honour."
                        --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:13 PM
                        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign


                        > Three questions, Gerry.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill's?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve
                        > at HF was a siege?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To where were the telegraph lines from HF operating?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Harry
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                        > On
                        > Behalf Of G E Mayers
                        > Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:51 PM
                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear Brian,
                        >
                        > re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP
                        > Hill
                        > would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
                        > would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
                        > Creek.
                        >
                        > As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking
                        > Crampton's
                        >
                        > Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
                        > Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
                        > actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
                        > Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there
                        > pretty
                        > much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.
                        >
                        > I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
                        > supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to
                        > try
                        > to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
                        > from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.
                        >
                        > Very respectfully,
                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        > "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                        > and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                        > to preserve it, save that of honour."
                        > --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860
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                      • Thomas Clemens
                        A dispatch rider from HF got to McClellan and notified him of the situation. I can look up the exact day & time if you need it, it is in Carman. Mac was
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          A dispatch rider from HF got to McClellan and notified him of the
                          situation. I can look up the exact day & time if you need it, it is in
                          Carman. Mac was very much trying to break through and relieve the
                          siege, and Halleck discussed it with him, adding it to his mission. The
                          telegraph line to DC, and everywhere else, were cut by the 13th.

                          The signal dispatch warning of Hill's approach is in the OR IIRC, but
                          there is no evidence it reached Burnside in time to react to it. I
                          don't think it mentions Hill by name, and the Viriginia flags is a myth,
                          the only VA units in the light Division were in Field's brigade, and
                          they were at the end of the column. Gregg's SC brigade was first, and
                          the NC artillery officer who saw the flag with his telescope probably
                          confused it for a VA flag.

                          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          Professor of History
                          Hagerstown Community College


                          >>> hjs21@... 01/08/06 3:13 PM >>>
                        • Teej Smith
                          Tom Clemens wrote: Gregg s SC brigade was first, and ... Yeah, well you know how it is, all those Mountain of Conceit flags look pretty much the same to
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Tom Clemens wrote:

                            <snip>

                            Gregg's SC brigade was first, and
                            > the NC artillery officer who saw the flag with his telescope probably
                            > confused it for a VA flag.

                            Yeah, well you know how it is, all those Mountain of Conceit flags look
                            pretty much the same to North Carolinians. :-)

                            Regards,
                            Teej
                          • Thomas Clemens
                            Yes, many state had blue flags with a state seal or symbol that looked alike from a distance. Even Maryland had one like that, unlike the ugly flag we have
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Yes, many state had blue flags with a state seal or symbol that looked
                              alike from a distance. Even Maryland had one like that, unlike the ugly
                              flag we have now.

                              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              Professor of History
                              Hagerstown Community College


                              >>> teej@... 01/08/06 6:29 PM >>>
                            • flagflop
                              Harry, In Ed Fishel s 1996 Secret War for the Union, (p. 234), Fishel wrestled with the basis for Mac s (erroneous) conclusion that Jackson had arrived on
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Harry,
                                In Ed Fishel's 1996 "Secret War for the Union," (p. 234), Fishel
                                wrestled with the basis for Mac's (erroneous) conclusion that
                                Jackson had arrived on the field at Sharpsburg on 15 Sep. He
                                suggested that it may have been due simply to Mac's hearing the
                                cheers at Sharpsburg (over news of the fall of HF), mis-interpreting
                                that as arrival of major reenforcement, asking himself (based on SO
                                191) which force that would likely be, and assuming Jackson...for
                                Jackson was not concerned with HF, but Martinsburg, and thus most
                                likely to have finished his task and rejoined Lee. Fishel describes
                                this as "Of all the erroneous conclusions about enemy movements and
                                positions that McClellan made after acquiring Lee's order, this one
                                was the most damaging." I tend to agree with that: in other words,
                                Mac accepted that (per SO 191) the reduction of HF was the primary
                                task of McLaws' guns on Md Hgts, with a modest assist from Walker to
                                block down-stream exit. He was unaware of Jackson's arrival there to
                                invest the post and the delay in SO 191's time-table.
                                Dave Gaddy


                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Dave,
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an
                                adequate
                                > response:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and
                                under no
                                > circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
                                > communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what
                                was the
                                > earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not
                                McLaws', not
                                > Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive
                                that
                                > information?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Harry
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of flagflop
                                > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
                                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
                                unit
                                > posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
                                visual
                                > signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
                                needed. (I've
                                > found no indication that signal communication was attempted
                                between McLaws
                                > and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
                                >
                                > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
                                >
                                > Dave Gaddy
                                >
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                              • Harry Smeltzer
                                An erroneous conclusion to be sure, but also understandable given the contents of SO 191. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  An erroneous conclusion to be sure, but also understandable given the
                                  contents of SO 191.



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of flagflop
                                  Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 11:09 PM
                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



                                  Harry,
                                  In Ed Fishel's 1996 "Secret War for the Union," (p. 234), Fishel
                                  wrestled with the basis for Mac's (erroneous) conclusion that
                                  Jackson had arrived on the field at Sharpsburg on 15 Sep. He
                                  suggested that it may have been due simply to Mac's hearing the
                                  cheers at Sharpsburg (over news of the fall of HF), mis-interpreting
                                  that as arrival of major reenforcement, asking himself (based on SO
                                  191) which force that would likely be, and assuming Jackson...for
                                  Jackson was not concerned with HF, but Martinsburg, and thus most
                                  likely to have finished his task and rejoined Lee. Fishel describes
                                  this as "Of all the erroneous conclusions about enemy movements and
                                  positions that McClellan made after acquiring Lee's order, this one
                                  was the most damaging." I tend to agree with that: in other words,
                                  Mac accepted that (per SO 191) the reduction of HF was the primary
                                  task of McLaws' guns on Md Hgts, with a modest assist from Walker to
                                  block down-stream exit. He was unaware of Jackson's arrival there to
                                  invest the post and the delay in SO 191's time-table.
                                  Dave Gaddy


                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dave,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an
                                  adequate
                                  > response:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and
                                  under no
                                  > circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
                                  > communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what
                                  was the
                                  > earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not
                                  McLaws', not
                                  > Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive
                                  that
                                  > information?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Harry
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf Of flagflop
                                  > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
                                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
                                  unit
                                  > posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
                                  visual
                                  > signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
                                  needed. (I've
                                  > found no indication that signal communication was attempted
                                  between McLaws
                                  > and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
                                  >
                                  > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
                                  >
                                  > Dave Gaddy
                                  >
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